Does god procreate?

[shimmer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2010,05:29)

Thanks Shimmer! I hope you are enjoying your new place. We will be trying to finish this weekend. WJ

Thanks, hope you enjoy your new place as well.

[shimmer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2010,03:20)

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 10 2010,03:43) Acts 13:13… “God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee“. As written in Psalms….I today have begotten thee, the day being as it say's, having raised up Jesus. Hi Shimmer Exactly! But they do not want to believe what that scripture says just like they do not believe these… So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Heb 5:5 So when was Jesus made High Priest? It had to be after he came in the flesh. The context of this scripture is about Jesus in the flesh. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:5 Why is the Father saying “I WILL BE to him a Father and HE SHALL BE to me a Son”? Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Pss 2:6, 7 When did Jesus sit upon the Holy hill? The Holy Hill is refering to the dwelling place of God. This scripture cannot mean he was begotten before the ages or time because it says he is begotten on a day. But these facts they refuse to believe and keep making the same claim that there is no scripture that says Jesus was DECLARED to be the Son of God, the Only Begotten by the Father and has nothing to do with “procreation” by birth but by his right. WJ

I agree WJ, actually most would agree, my Mother said she did (which is surprising because we debate alot !)… (she's a Catholic).

Good verses there.

Where is KJ ?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2010,02:20)

Exactly! But they do not want to believe what that scripture says just like they do not believe these… So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Heb 5:5 So when was Jesus made High Priest? It had to be after he came in the flesh. The context of this scripture is about Jesus in the flesh.

Hey Keith,

What is a “priest”? Isn't it traditionally someone who goes BETWEEN man and God? Is Jesus a priest of himself?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2010,04:54)

the Athanasian Creed was the final nail to close the coffin to the Arians that believed Jesus was not always with the Father.

Hi Keith,

I am not an Arian, for I believe Jesus is divine – having been directly begotten by his Father and God.  Arius did not believe Jesus was a divine being.  So please don't lump us all together.  The fact that I follow scripture that clearly indicates that Jesus is not God Himself does not make me (or Kathi) an “Arian”.

And if by “Athanasian Creed” you mean the Nicene Creed (which I'm sure you do), the creed itself is completely scriptural.  It is ONLY the anathema added as a separate part of the creed itself that is unscriptural.  So it is remiss of you to assert it was the creed itself that nailed Arius' coffin shut.

And on a side note, Eusebius – the one who is credited with actually writing down the words of the Nicene Creed – immediately distanced himself from the anathema at the end.  He point blank said it wasn't scriptural and he had no intention whatsoever of teaching anything listed in it.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,10:18)

Pierre, The Father is greater in a sense, for one, the Father was the cause of the Son's begettal, but He is not greater in nature.

But that's not what the scripture says Kathi. It doesn't say “the Father is greater than I……IN SOME SENSES”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,12:10)

2Pe 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Oh boy!  Then WE will be able to be worshipped as God too!

Kathi, if some of us will be accepted to partake in “the divine nature”, and we won't actually be worshipped in the “paying homage” sense, why do you think Jesus should be?

We don't worship the “nature of God”, but Jehovah God the Person.  Jesus being caused to exist with the nature of God does not make him the Person of God, and therefore NOT the only One the scriptures tell us to worship.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2010,20:55)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,10:18) Pierre, The Father is greater in a sense, for one, the Father was the cause of the Son's begettal, but He is not greater in nature. But that's not what the scripture says Kathi.  It doesn't say “the Father is greater than I……IN SOME SENSES”. mike

Hi Mike,
You are right, the scriptures don't say that “the Father is greater than I…IN SOME SENSES.” Nor does it say “the Father is greater than I IN EVERY WAY.” Does it?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2010,21:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,12:10) 2Pe 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Oh boy!  Then WE will be able to be worshipped as God too! Kathi, if some of us will be accepted to partake in “the divine nature”, and we won't actually be worshipped in the “paying homage” sense, why do you think Jesus should be? We don't worship the “nature of God”, but Jehovah God the Person.  Jesus being caused to exist with the nature of God does not make him the Person of God, and therefore NOT the only One the scriptures tell us to worship. peace and love, mike

Mike,
Whatever men 'becoming a partaker of the divine nature' means, we partake of it as a new nature and not an original nature. No God could be God that wasn't of the divine nature always and besides that God would have to be the creator and not the created. So, no we won't be worshiped…but the Son always was of divine nature and creator with the Father. He we can worship as the begotten God along with the unbegotten God. They are the creator (not creators).

If you want to discuss this then lets take one point at a time, ok?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,13:34)

Nor does it say “the Father is greater than I IN EVERY WAY.”

But since there was nothing specific mentioned that the Father was greater than him in, I would think the default would be “everything”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,13:43)

No God could be God that wasn't of the divine nature always and besides that God would have to be the creator and not the created.

And this is an important point you bring up Kathi. Jesus IS “the created”. Jesus said so and so did Paul. And scripture doesn't say that Jesus is “the creator”, does it? It says all things are FROM the Creator, Jehovah; and all things came THROUGH the Creator's Son, Jesus.

Jesus is the created…….NOT the Creator.

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2010,22:14)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,13:34) Nor does it say “the Father is greater than I IN EVERY WAY.” But since there was nothing specific mentioned that the Father was greater than him in, I would think the default would be “everything”. mike

Mike,
We know that Jesus emptied Himself and humbled Himself so that 'greater than' could mean as when 'in the flesh.' Or it could mean that the one that begat before the ages would naturally be greater in that sense than the one that was begotten. Aside from that, after the Son was given all things that the Father had and seated at His right hand I can see a sense of equality. I also see a sense of equality from before the ages because of being the same nature…equal in nature. So, I can see both…a sense of equality and also in another sense, an inequality, context helps.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2010,22:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,13:43) No God could be God that wasn't of the divine nature always and besides that God would have to be the creator and not the created. And this is an important point you bring up Kathi.  Jesus IS “the created”.  Jesus said so and so did Paul.  And scripture doesn't say that Jesus is “the creator”, does it?  It says all things are FROM the Creator, Jehovah; and all things came THROUGH the Creator's Son, Jesus. Jesus is the created…….NOT the Creator. mike

Hi Mike,
You assume that the term 'firstborn of all creation' is implying that the Son is created. If I said that so and so was the 'Lord of all creation,' you wouldn't assume that implies that the 'Lord' is created would you?

Also in Revelations, I suppose you refer to 'the beginning of creation' as to implying that the Son is part of the creation as the first created. Beginning can be translated in other ways like principle, chief, origin, source, etc. So, I don't think you have two die hard verses as proof of your 'Jesus is a created being' theory. I really don't think that the Father would have the angels worshipping a created being but He does tell them to worship the Son.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You realize that Eusebius worships the Son as God:

Quote

18. History, therefore, does not relate that he was anointed corporeally by the Jews, nor 87 that he belonged to the lineage of priests, but that he came into existence from God himself before the morning star, that is before the organization of the world, and that he obtained an immortal and undecaying priesthood for eternal ages. 19. But it is a great and convincing proof of his incorporeal and divine unction that he alone of all those who have ever existed is even to the present day called Christ by all men throughout the world, and is confessed and witnessed to under this name, and is commemorated both by Greeks and Barbarians and even to this day is honored as a King by his followers throughout the world, and is admired as more than a prophet, and is glorified as the true and only high priest of God. And besides all this, as the pre-existent Word of God, called into being before all ages, he has received august honor from the Father, and is worshiped as God. 20. But most wonderful of all is the fact that we who have consecrated ourselves to him, honor him not only with our voices and with the sound of words, but also with complete elevation of soul, so that we choose to give testimony unto him rather than to preserve our own lives. 21. I have of necessity prefaced my history with these matters in order that no one, judging from the date of his incarnation, may think that our Saviour and Lord Jesus, the Christ, has but recently come into being.

Here, Eusebius call the Son 'the creator with the Father' among other things which would ruffle the feathers here with some on HN:

Quote

For none knoweth the Father except the Son, neither can any one know the Son adequately except the Father alone who hath begotten him. 3. For who beside the Father could clearly understand the Light which was before the world, the intellectual and essential Wisdom which existed before the ages, the living Word which was in the beginning with the Father and which was God, the first and only begotten of God which was before every creature and creation visible and invisible, the commander-in-chief of the rational and immortal host of heaven, the messenger of the great counsel, the executor of the Father’s unspoken will, the creator, with the Father, of all things, the second cause of the universe after the Father, the true and only-begotten Son of God, the Lord and God and King of all created things, the one who has received dominion and power, with divinity itself, and with might and honor from the Father; as it is said in regard to him in the mystical passages of Scripture which speak of his divinity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made.”26

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,09:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2010,22:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,13:43) No God could be God that wasn't of the divine nature always and besides that God would have to be the creator and not the created. And this is an important point you bring up Kathi.  Jesus IS “the created”.  Jesus said so and so did Paul.  And scripture doesn't say that Jesus is “the creator”, does it?  It says all things are FROM the Creator, Jehovah; and all things came THROUGH the Creator's Son, Jesus. Jesus is the created…….NOT the Creator. mike Hi Mike, You assume that the term 'firstborn of all creation' is implying that the Son is created.  If I said that so and so was the 'Lord of all creation,' you wouldn't assume that implies that the 'Lord' is created would you? Also in Revelations, I suppose you refer to 'the beginning of creation' as to implying that the Son is part of the creation as the first created. Beginning can be translated in other ways like principle, chief, origin, source, etc.  So, I don't think you have two die hard verses as proof of your 'Jesus is a created being' theory.  I really don't think that the Father would have the angels worshipping a created being but He does tell them to worship the Son.

man i totaly agree.
I was trying to say the same thing, and you have spoken perfectly, you worded it better than me.

[JustAskin]

LU,

As you stress your definition of “Worship” by Angels of Jesus – does it also occur to you that the Term “Worship” can also be translated as “Obeisance”.

Check also that “Kings” are given obeisance by their subjects. And what is Jesus in Heaven – A King – and who are his Subjects.

Also, Worship – ONLY GOD should be “Worshipped” (Given Sacred Service) – Where in Heaven is Jesus being given Sacred Service by the angels – and also – Why not by Mankind? Why is Mankind not included in the Sacred Service if Angels are?

Clearly then it is Obeisance that Jesus is being offered by the Angels – They are HIS to command as King – That is why Mankind is not included: Mankind is in the image of God and will be “Brothers with him, Sons of God and therefore Heirs of God Himself”.

LU, Jesus doesn't COMMAND his Brothers – they are his Equal in status as Sons of God – “One does not Command ones equals” (UK Queen's English!).

Also, Jesus DOES NOT have ALL that the Father has: “ALL” does not Always (!) mean “ALL” – you need to check the context.

Can your Father give you EVERYTHING (ALL) that he has? You say “Yes, of course”. Really, Lu? Can he give you ALL his Knowledge, his Wisdom, his Might, his Power, Energy? Still you say “Yes, even all of them?”

LU, when you say this then I know you are dishonest to yourself… Clearly, your Father cannot give you ALL His WISDOM, ALL His KNOWLEDGE, Might, Power, Energy… If he did he would cease to exist because You would become Your Own Father – You would become HIM – and You (as LU) would cease to exist!

Does God cease to exist when Jesus is given “[All] Power and authority”… and check this; Is that all there is to God; Just Power and Authority such that Jesus inherits it all – What about the SEAT of Power – Jesus is still ONLY an HEIR to the Throne of God – A Prince (“Prince” of Peace – Not “KING” of Peace).

Does a Steward own the throne when his King (See – His King!) goes away – No!

Even Solomon bemoaned the fact that he could not pass on his Wisdom to his children. Solomon's Power and Might waned when he passed “what he could” to his children.

Scripture has Fractals to help us understand God's Kingdom and his word: Two places (maybe more) Scriptures shows us what is to be: Pharoah and Joseph, and Ahesereus and Haman/Mordecai.
Both events relate the giving of “[ALL] Power and Authority” over the Kings Kingdom – Yet…At No Time Was The One Given The '[All] Power and Authority' Ever Given The Seat Of Power – The Throne..in fact, Pharoah (Scriptures) say, 'Except for the Throne, All power and authority is given to so no one may raise a foot or place a foot in my kingdom without your say so!”.

For goodness sake, LU;
For Righteous Truth Sake, LU;
For God's sake, LU – Why do you think that the “Throne” was excepted..? Pretty obvious it should be imagined.

Could Joseph sleep with the women in Pharoah's hareem – No! So Joseph DOES NOT own ALL that Pharoah owns.
Could Joseph sleep with Pharoah's Wife – No! So Joseph DOES NOT own ALL that Pharoah owns.
Could Joseph Depose Pharoah – No! So Joseph DOES NOT own ALL that Pharoah owns.
Could Joseph give away Pharoah's Kingdom – Yes and No! Yes But NO – it would be illegal. Pharoah could give away His Kingdom though!
If another nation were to come and invade Egypt and say “Where is your King” who would be brought to them Joseph or Pharoah?

[shimmer]

JA, from page 24,

Quote

The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, theres a question for you, what does that mean ?

[shimmer]

Quote

“… and check this; Is that all there is to God; Just Power and Authority such that Jesus inherits it all

God is love. God is good. God is patient and kind. Jesus said there is no-one good but God. Jesus comes back as a judge, to make war and to destroy. He is the Lord of Lord's and King of King's.

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,
thanks for the Bump.

All these elementary questions – it is no wonder that there is so much misunderstanding….

The Testimony of Christ… What is the problem with comprehending this : Jesus is telling WHAT IS TO COME – What is to Be – What Will Be. I fail to see what there is to query.

Did the poster think there was another answer? Some great chunk of revelation that JA was going to choke on?

And Shimmer, The “Is there all there is to God” is directed at “God is CONTAINER of ALL THINGS” therefore “NO ONE can be ALL that God is”;
The Power contained by within another cannot be greater than Power that contains it.
The Force contained by within another cannot be greater than Force that contains it.
The Authority contained by within another cannot be greater than Authority that contains it.
The Truth contained by within another cannot be greater than Truth that contains it.

However:
The Lie contained by within another can be (and often is) greater than Lie that contains it.
The retribution that you inflict on another can often be greater than the infliction that was caused to you by the other.

[SimplyForgiven]

Lu, you inspired me to write a really long thread, please tell me what you think about it?

Just askin: You are stating that we are EQUAL to Christ?
does paul not say we are ADOPTED so that we may Cry out “abba”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2010,16:10)

Mike, You realize that Eusebius worships the Son as God:

Hi Kathi,

Could you post the link for me?

mike

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