- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi All.
It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
If I understand your post correctly that Jesus had a beginning point at his conception in Mary's womb then I agree with you.Martian
Does God reproduce other “Gods” exacly like himself. Does God bring birth to a being from his own body by the natural process of procreation? That is what the poll is about.
Thanks
Worshipping Jesus,
For the most part I believe the points we disagree are not points you addressed in your post. There is one exception to that general statement that I spotted and that is that I believe God stated “”Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”.” when Jesus was immersed at the Jordon to reconfirm his commitment to serve God though the wording is different.
I also agree with Marty.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
Hi Keith,You know where I stand on this issue. God cannot procreate. The whole idea is pagan.
Jesus did not become “Son” until His birth nor was He coronated to the office as Son until His resurrection. These are the scriptural facts.
John did NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” He said, “In the beginning was the Word.” The Word became Son for our salvation. Had sin not entered into the world the necessity for His becoming Son would not have had the occasion to exist. It was the plan of redemption which called for a Son to become and to be manifested in the world.
Jack
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 14 2010,06:50) Isaiah 43:10; “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.”
Amen!Roo
Quote (martian @ Aug. 14 2010,03:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
If I understand your post correctly that Jesus had a beginning point at his conception in Mary's womb then I agree with you.
Martian,You don't understand WJ's post at all. Read it again with comprehension.
Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,10:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
Hello WJ,You write many half-truths, which someone said before is complete lies.
My father pro-created me and I look like him (AND my mother) but I am not him. If God pro-creates, His son would be “God-natured” just like Him but not co-equal except in age as you state. God exists and has no beginning! A son has a beginning.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Gen 1:27 Man was created in God's image…from dust
John 3:16 God SENT His only begotten son…..pro-created
Phil 2:7 Christ “emptied himself” and became a servant…in the form of man…
emptied….what? Himself and then became a servant in the likeness of men…(existed before he became a man; son of God)
Lu 1:35 the Holy Spirit (noun, feminine) shall overcome you…and the POWER (one of Her 7 spirits) of the Most High (Elohim) will overshadow you….
1 Jo 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has “sent” His only begotten Son “into the world” so that we might live through Him.
What was sent/implanted? The “emptied” Jesus (son of God).
What is Jesus also called? The son of Man.
By what you say and Jesus became the son of God at his birth thru Mary, then Mary is the mother of God (Jesus is the son of God). Golly, what church makes this claims and worships Mary???
You guys are tooooo funny.
When will you believe the Bible?
Better yet, why don't you rewrite the Bible to make it come out the way YOU want?
And then pat each other on the back.The Professor
So, if the Bible says that Jesus is the begotten son of God, before he was born thru Mary, who else did the other half of pro-creating (begetting)? YHWH + ??
If we are in the image of God and the female delivers the baby wouldn't there be a Heavenly female delivering God's baby?
Or if the Father brought forth the Baby then why did the HS have to use Mary? Why didn't God produce the Baby thru Joseph, like God did for His son?
Davidbfun said:
Quote If God pro-creates, His son would be “God-natured” just like Him but not co-equal except in age as you state. God exists and has no beginning! A son has a beginning.
David,You do greatly err. There are THREE ways to become a “son” in scripture:
1. by procreation
2. by adoption
3. by appointmentDavid became the son of God by appointment:
Quote I have found David my servant;
with my sacred oil I have anointed him.21 My hand will sustain him;
surely my arm will strengthen him.22 No enemy will subject him to tribute;
no wicked man will oppress him.23 I will crush his foes before him
and strike down his adversaries.24 My faithful love will be with him,
and through my name his horn [a] will be exalted.25 I will set his hand over the sea,
his right hand over the rivers.26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock my Savior.'27 I will also APPOINT him my firstborn [son],
the most exalted of the kings of the earth Ps. 89:20-27
Please give special note to verse 27. The Psalm is about David and in verse 27 God said “I will APPOINT him my firstborn [son].”Your view is shared by pagans! Jesus was appointed to be God's son just as His father David.
Again, there are THREE ways to become a son in scripture. But a man can become a son of God in only two ways which is by adoption or by appointment. God does not have male and female organs and CANNOT reproduce. Only men can beget sons by reproduction.
the Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
Any one who thinks that God would either “procreate” or “reproduce” himself, shows his ignorance.
God does neither, God “CREATES”, period.Georg
Roo, George,
It is as you say. I am with you both here.
Roo, you are spot on in your last post.
Unspoken/written…this is directly analogous with Jesus, as Man, being “Begotten” as God's Son after his resurrection. Verse 27 states it clearly, indefatigably, induplicably [my dear Watson].
Jesus was appointed King after his resurrection – because he overcame – not from his 'coming into existence' (even though it was 'foretold').
My stance on 'procreation' is known – No, Spirits do not Procreate – they Create – Procreation is from FLESH KIND (Including animals/fauna) – living offsprings.
Plants/Flora “reproduce” through seeds that, as Jesus quaintly puts it, “Have to DIE (In the soil – away from the parent – become lifeless (ok, we know they not completely lifeless)) before they can Live (Germinate)”
— Ha!! Mankind has to DIE in the body 'Spiritually speaking' away from the fleshly earth before they can be raised to Life as heavenly Spirits.
I think the original question is too broad. Does God procreate in the sense that we do? In a way yes. He produces life from within himself. Just as women and man do because of the original life put in us by God. Does the life God produces carry at least part of the characteristics of God? Yes it does.
A speculation —
Can God create a sperm that can be matched with Mary's egg to produce Jesus? Certainly. Is that how it happened? Who knows, it is not made clear in scripture.Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 14 2010,21:01) Roo, George, It is as you say. I am with you both here.
Roo, you are spot on in your last post.
Unspoken/written…this is directly analogous with Jesus, as Man, being “Begotten” as God's Son after his resurrection. Verse 27 states it clearly, indefatigably, induplicably [my dear Watson].
Jesus was appointed King after his resurrection – because he overcame – not from his 'coming into existence' (even though it was 'foretold').
My stance on 'procreation' is known – No, Spirits do not Procreate – they Create – Procreation is from FLESH KIND (Including animals/fauna) – living offsprings.
Plants/Flora “reproduce” through seeds that, as Jesus quaintly puts it, “Have to DIE (In the soil – away from the parent – become lifeless (ok, we know they not completely lifeless)) before they can Live (Germinate)”
— Ha!! Mankind has to DIE in the body 'Spiritually speaking' away from the fleshly earth before they can be raised to Life as heavenly Spirits.
Thanks JA
the Roo
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,03:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) Hi All. It is claimed by some that an infinite God can reproduce himself. In fact some claim that God reproduced “a God” that is co-equal to him except in age.
Others claim that God reproduced out of his own body a creature that is not God, but something else, while claiming that this creature is Gods “Only Begotten Son”.
It is my contention that Jesus is called “the Son of God” and given that title most assuredly after his birth as a man. (Luke 1:35) This is a scriptural fact.
Also, Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom 1:4) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
It doesn't take a scholar to easily see that for the Father to say “Thou art my Son” and then say “This day I have begotten you” would be a redundant statement if he was not already a Son before the Father said “This day I have begotten thee”.
This day is a point in time, yet those who make the claim that Pss 2:7 is about his beginning before the ages or time contradicts them and their claim is obviously flawed.
There is no scripture which unambiguously claims Jesus had a beginning before the ages or time, but only a couple of scriptures that can be twisted and misinterpreted to support their claim. Conjecture is not facts. The scriptures read in their rightful context are fact.
What say you?
WJ
Any one who thinks that God would either “procreate” or “reproduce” himself, shows his ignorance.
God does neither, God “CREATES”, period.Georg
1Jo 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent “His only begotten Son” into the world so that we might live through Him.Jhn 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the “only begotten Son” of God.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave “His only begotten Son”, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: (Jesus) The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,02:31) The decree was made by the Father after his resurrection “Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten you”… (Heb 1:5 – Pss 2:7 – Acts 13:33 – Heb 5:5) This is also a scriptural fact.
The decree was told by Jesus 700 years before he was born in flesh. The fact that Paul quoted Psalm 2:7 to show people Jesus was in fact that Son that God talked about in the Psalm in no way implies that is the “today” that Paul was talking about.Which “today” was it anyway Keith? The “today” when Jesus came out of the tomb, or the “today” when he ascended to heaven? There were 39 “todays” between these two, so which one was it?
Just answer this one simple question for now.
mike
Keith's opening post is misleading. We need to address some scriptural issues, as David has so aptly pointed out, and then believe those scriptures……not our own “wishes” for what we want Jesus to be.
1. Most people assume that procreate means a man and a woman having sex to form a child………….FALSE
This is just a diversion tactic by the trinitarians. They like to say “only begotten” in referrence to Jesus can't be literal because there was no “female God” nor does God have a “womb”. The truth is that procreate simply means:
pro·cre·ate /ˈproʊkriˌeɪt/ Show Spelled [proh-kree-eyt] Show IPA verb, -at·ed, -at·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to beget or generate (offspring).
2. to produce; bring into being.
–verb (used without object)
3. to beget offspring.
4. to produce; bring into being.In most of God's creation that we have knowledge about, this involves a male and female of the species coupling, but not all. Worms, for example are asexual, and are therefore neither male nor female, yet they still procreate – or “beget offspring”.
So for those who say God could not have “brought into being” an offspring that was directly of Himself by Himself, I say, “How can you even pretend to limit the limitless God who “brought into being” everything we know, plus much more in the invisible realms that we can't even comprehend?”
Therefore when John calls Jesus the “only begotten god” in 1:18, who are any of us to say that it doesn't mean exactly what it says?
Shimmer quotes Is 43:10 and has much support for it. Good, because it is scripture. But does 43:10 ever say no gods would be begotten after God? Not at all. It says that there were no gods who were before Him, and none shall exist after Him……that's all. The NETBible translates it this way,
No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.
We have to acknowledge that “god” in Biblical times was used of men, angels, Satan, Jesus and God Himself. We don't use the word in that sense anymore, and so it is confusing for people to accept that there were many more than one who were called “god” back then. “God” was understood then similarly to the way we understand “father” today. If I said about my pastor at church, “The father wants us to study Micah 5 for the next sermon”, no one would think from the context that I was referring to “THE FATHER in heaven”. So it was in Biblical times with the word “god”. Jehovah Himself prophesied through Isaiah that Jesus would be called “mighty god”, yet people seem to have a problem with him being “the only begotten god”.
To be continued……….
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
