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Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2014,20:44) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2014,17:32) This is a very good question. Most would no doubt say that he knows everything, implying that when he created Satan before he fell, he knew full well he would fall, and so loved him up until the point that he knew he would fall. Seems weird to my limited mind. But here is where I am now with this. God knows everything that is in line with his will. What he doesn't know and control is free will. Free will essentially is what God has and he gifted us with the ability to change our mind, to reject him, or to love him and align our will with his. So it is a chance that he takes and lets it play out.
However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. So if he knows we are destined to not make it or not be as fruitful, he is able to change things to get the best possible result with all of us. But he cannot and will not ever over ride our decisions, only our circumstances.
That said, God must also live outside of the dimension of Time-Space that he created and if so, a part of him perhaps can see all of time-space in a moment. Perhaps this is why he is able to get the best possible outcome for us.
Luke 13:6
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 “Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 “But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 'And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'
T8,
Thanks for your input.I believe there is some misunderstood twist to “God knowing the future”. Some scriptures seems to indicate that God does not know an outcome (“now I know”, “if”, etc.), and like terraricca I do not believe that God has any part in evil (and knowingly creating a “satan” seems to make God taking part in it). However I'm just after the truth that I believe is in scripture, so I'm just questioning the assumption that God knew the future to make sure it is not based on a 'tradition' instead of 'truth'.
Wm
Seekingtruth.Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
wakeup.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2014,03:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2014,19:02) Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely?
Mike,
Thanks for your input. It's kind of funny that when I was first reading through the OT it did not take long before I could “predict” how the Israelites would react.
Okay Wm,I'll add a third possibility to it.
1. God foresaw and therefore knew without a doubt what the Israelites would soon do.
2. God used His power to CAUSE the Israelites to go against Him, so He could punish them severely.
3. God was using something akin to human logical deduction (perhaps an “educated guess”), and was therefore PRETTY SURE that the Israelites would do those things soon in the future.
Which one do you believe, Wm?
How about you Pierre?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,01:46) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,22:09) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2014,20:23) T8, Quote However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. I believe God always controls the timelines in order to proof the hearts of men and to prepare the way for his children.
I don't see how controlling the timelines involves controlling a person. He simply sets up events in each of our lives in order to further his plans.
kyou make it sound like men is the focus of things ,BUT HE IS NOT IT IS THE GLORY OF GOD ,
THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT ;
1) THE FLOOD
2) THE WILL OF GOD TO DESTROY THE NATION OF ISRAEL PRIOR TO ENTER THE PROMISED LAND ,
AND SEE WHAT PREVENTED GOD OF DOING IT
T,Please site those Scriptures so that I know where they are. Thank you.
KGe 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Ge 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Ge 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.Nu 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
Nu 14:12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.”
Nu 14:13 Moses said to the LORD, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them.
Nu 14:14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD, are with these people and that you, O LORD, have been seen face to faceQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,06:45) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2014,03:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2014,19:02) Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely?
Mike,
Thanks for your input. It's kind of funny that when I was first reading through the OT it did not take long before I could “predict” how the Israelites would react.
Okay Wm,I'll add a third possibility to it.
1. God foresaw and therefore knew without a doubt what the Israelites would soon do.
2. God used His power to CAUSE the Israelites to go against Him, so He could punish them severely.
3. God was using something akin to human logical deduction (perhaps an “educated guess”), and was therefore PRETTY SURE that the Israelites would do those things soon in the future.
Which one do you believe, Wm?
How about you Pierre?
MikeGod did not foresaw what they will do he might have suspect it as a possibility ,but many were like Cain instead of listing they went on complaining and complaining ,NOT ALL WERE AGAINST GOD AS CAN BE SEEN IN THE NUMBERS THAT HAVE BEEN PUNISHED ,
UNDERSTAND THAT THE 40 YEARS OF THE DESERT WALK ONLY MEANS 2.5 HOUR OF GOD'S TIME ,PEANUTS
T.
What you are saying is that God does not know what tomorrow will bring.
He just waits and see.wakeup.
T,
Ge 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Ge 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Ge 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.I think other translations are friendlier to your point of view than this one you chose. I believe it is the NIV you are using.
God being saddened by one of his creations does not mean he did not know that that creation would cause him pain at this or any other time. God could have ended the human race at that time but chose not to. Why did he chose to preserve 8 people?
T,
Nu 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
Nu 14:12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.”
Nu 14:13 Moses said to the LORD, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them.
Nu 14:14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD, are with these people and that you, O LORD, have been seen face to faceJesus was not conceived of the line of Moses. Was God unaware of that? If so why did one of those in the NT speak of the curse on woman as speaking of the struggle between the serpent and the Son of man?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,18:43) T, Nu 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
Nu 14:12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.”
Nu 14:13 Moses said to the LORD, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them.
Nu 14:14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD, are with these people and that you, O LORD, have been seen face to faceJesus was not conceived of the line of Moses. Was God unaware of that? If so why did one of those in the NT speak of the curse on woman as speaking of the struggle between the serpent and the Son of man?
KREAD MORE CAREFULLY ,THE SCRIPTURE I QUOTE
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,18:38) T, Ge 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Ge 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Ge 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.I think other translations are friendlier to your point of view than this one you chose. I believe it is the NIV you are using.
God being saddened by one of his creations does not mean he did not know that that creation would cause him pain at this or any other time. God could have ended the human race at that time but chose not to. Why did he chose to preserve 8 people?
KTHE PLAN OF GOD DID NOT CHANGE ,RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING ,EVEN WITH MOSES ,CHRIST WAS THE PLAN
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 29 2014,15:44) T. What you are saying is that God does not know what tomorrow will bring.
He just waits and see.wakeup.
WYOU REALLY TRY TO MAKE GOD LESS SMARTER THAN MEN ,
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAY ,I SAY THAT GOD DOES NOT FORESEES ,WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS ,AND FOREKNOWLEDGE WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS ,
Actually the best verse I've seen to 'disprove' my postulation is Psalm 139:16 – Every one of the days we would live were allocated to us before we were born. however other translations render it as You could see my body grow each passing day. You listed all my parts, and not one of them was missing. so I'm not sure yet.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 30 2014,01:34) Actually the best verse I've seen to 'disprove' my postulation is Psalm 139:16 – Every one of the days we would live were allocated to us before we were born. however other translations render it as You could see my body grow each passing day. You listed all my parts, and not one of them was missing. so I'm not sure yet. Wm
sktunderstand that the scriptures were not directly written about men ;BUT ABOUT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,THAT WILL BE SEND DOWN IN DUE TIME ,TO BECOME A MAN ,COVER IN FLESH ,THROUGH A WOMEN ,TO GIVE THE PAYMENT TO GOD HIS FATHER ON OUR OWN BEHALF ,
SO THAT HE MAY GIVE LIFE TO WHOEVER HE WANTS
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,20:45) Okay Wm, I'll add a third possibility to it.
1. God foresaw and therefore knew without a doubt what the Israelites would soon do.
2. God used His power to CAUSE the Israelites to go against Him, so He could punish them severely.
3. God was using something akin to human logical deduction (perhaps an “educated guess”), and was therefore PRETTY SURE that the Israelites would do those things soon in the future.
Which one do you believe, Wm?
How about you Pierre?
Mike,
Option #1 is the cause for the topic of discussionWhat have I ever posted to make you believe I could ever remotely believe option #2?
Option #3 is worded in a poor manner to ridicule the possibility of the idea I'm postulating. No, God does not use “human logical deduction” God uses His infinite knowledge of what is transpiring and His intimate knowledge of our hearts to draw conclusions, then His infinite love and His infinite power to take action for the greatest good.
If you feel you must be snide I would rather you bother someone else, I'm searching for truth, I've already stated I could be wrong, I'm just looking for scriptures that prove it one way or the other (I assume your not opposed to searching for truth).
Thank you – Wm
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,06:38) God being saddened by one of his creations does not mean he did not know that that creation would cause him pain at this or any other time.
Agreed.Surely God was saddened to see His only begotten Son go through torture, pain, and death too.
But that doesn't mean God didn't already know it was going to happen long before it did happen, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2014,04:47) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,06:38) God being saddened by one of his creations does not mean he did not know that that creation would cause him pain at this or any other time.
Agreed.Surely God was saddened to see His only begotten Son go through torture, pain, and death too.
But that doesn't mean God didn't already know it was going to happen long before it did happen, right?
knowing is not foresee or foreknowledgeso on knowing I agree
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 29 2014,14:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,20:45) Okay Wm, I'll add a third possibility to it.
1. God foresaw and therefore knew without a doubt what the Israelites would soon do.
2. God used His power to CAUSE the Israelites to go against Him, so He could punish them severely.
3. God was using something akin to human logical deduction (perhaps an “educated guess”), and was therefore PRETTY SURE that the Israelites would do those things soon in the future.
Which one do you believe, Wm?
How about you Pierre?
Mike,
Option #1 is the cause for the topic of discussionWhat have I ever posted to make you believe I could ever remotely believe option #2?
From the OP of the thread:Quote ……..does God know with absolute certainty the details of the future or can He with certainty proclaim an outcome based on His power, and His wisdom to move the pieces on the board (so to speak) to arrive at His desired conclusion.
In the case of Deuteronomy 31:16-18, this latter part of what you asked in the OP would mean that God used His power and wisdom to cause the Israelites to prostitute themselves to other gods, and break His covenant……. because that was “His desired conclusion”.Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 29 2014,14:04) Option #3 is worded in a poor manner to ridicule the possibility of the idea I'm postulating. No, God does not use “human logical deduction” God uses His infinite knowledge of what is transpiring and His intimate knowledge of our hearts to draw conclusions……..
I didn't think it was “poorly worded”, Wm. I did not say God used human logical deduction, but something akin to it, right?And that IS, after all, what you and Pierre have both said about Deuteronomy 31:16-18, right? You have said that God used His infinite knowledge (which if it was indeed “infinite”, it would include “foreknowledge”) of the current situation, and His knowledge of the condition of the human heart, to basically make an EDUCATED GUESS that the Israelites would soon go against Him.
But God didn't tell Moses that the Israelites would MOST PROBABLY go against Him in the near future, right? He told Moses as a FACT that they would DEFINITELY do this thing, right?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 29 2014,14:04) If you feel you must be snide I would rather you bother someone else, I'm searching for truth, I've already stated I could be wrong, I'm just looking for scriptures that prove it one way or the other (I assume your not opposed to searching for truth). Thank you – Wm
Searching for truth is commendable, Wm. But all I've done is to show you the scripture you were asking for – the one that proves it one way or the other. I've also tried to use human logic and reasoning to show you how odd it is to hear you and Pierre imply that God merely “had a pretty good IDEA” that the Israelites would soon rebel against Him.If that is being “snide” and a “bother” to you, I'll bail from the thread and let you guys have at it.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2014,10:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2014,04:47) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,06:38) God being saddened by one of his creations does not mean he did not know that that creation would cause him pain at this or any other time.
Agreed.Surely God was saddened to see His only begotten Son go through torture, pain, and death too.
But that doesn't mean God didn't already know it was going to happen long before it did happen, right?
knowing is not foresee or foreknowledgeso on knowing I agree
T.Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have
***foretold***
you all things.Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise
***foretold*** of these days.Go on; twist those words for your own pleasure.
To satisfy your EGO.wakeup.
Mike
Quote Searching for truth is commendable, Wm. But all I've done is to show you the scripture you were asking for – the one that proves it one way or the other. I've also tried to use human logic and reasoning to show you how odd it is to hear you and Pierre say that God “had a pretty good IDEA” that the Israelites would soon rebel against Him. I will ask you one question ;how did God knew who he would kill or destroy in the desert (64000) and another place as well cant remember were
I don't know IF God decided to know those particulars in advance, and if He did, I would have no human idea how that process would have worked.
I believe God CAN know anything He wants to know – which is how I answered this poll.
I don't personally believe God WANTS to know every detail in advance.
But the passage in Deuteronomy PROVES that He is at least ABLE to know things in advance. Most of the scriptures the others have posted here tell me the same thing.
Acts 16
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.19 When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
The slave girl could not have made money for her masters if her predictions were wrong. And it is clear that the spirit that possessed her was the one making the predictions. In order for that demon to make accurate future predictions, he must have been able to know the future. So if this lowly demon can do such a thing – why not the Most High God who created all things?
And that Acts passage ties directly in with this other passage I posted earlier:
Isaiah 41:22-23
“Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome.Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.
Jehovah is saying that if the idols of the nations were truly gods, they too would be able to foresee the future. Demons are truly gods, and can therefore know at least certain future things.
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