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Howdy Wm,
Isaiah 41:22-23
“Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome.Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.
IMO, Jehovah is saying that if the idols of the nations were truly gods, they too would be able to foresee the future.
From another thread:
Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely? That God foreknows what THEY are going to do? Or that God is going to FORCE them to go after other gods, thereby MAKING all this stuff happen?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,05:02) From another thread: Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely? That God foreknows what THEY are going to do? Or that God is going to FORCE them to go after other gods, thereby MAKING all this stuff happen?
MIKEI use to run projects ,and trust me it did not take me a full day to figure out witch ones of the workers were the good ones and the ones that drag their feet,
of cause God knows ,he as the experience of the previous years ,with all what they had done ,but yet this was on a mass of people not individuals ,
Jn 2:24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.
Jn 2:25 He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.T,
Like you, I once was a project manager and with as little as I know of people I could predict a lot about how things would go on the project based on my limited knowledge of these people (but I cannot foresee).Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,04:07) Howdy Wm, Isaiah 41:22-23
“Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome.Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.
IMO, Jehovah is saying that if the idols of the nations were truly gods, they too would be able to foresee the future.
MikeNo,that is not what God says,what he say is if you were true gods why do you not say what will happen ,because God almighty knows very well that he can stop what ever they would call ,and make fools out of them .
There is no foresee/n from God 's point of view only from men view
To say that God as foreknowledge and foresees all things make him the supporter of evil and wickedness ,
If not the source of it ,
God is love ,kind,juste,righteous,blameless ,holy,
God does not see the things we see ,the way we see it ,
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2014,08:18) T,
Like you, I once was a project manager and with as little as I know of people I could predict a lot about how things would go on the project based on my limited knowledge of these people (but I cannot foresee).Wm
SktIn construction
T.
You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,10:09) T. You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
WYou forgot one thing :Satan his a liar
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,15:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,10:09) T. You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
WYou forgot one thing :Satan his a liar
T.Satan knew that he will have all the kingdoms on the earh.
As you can see it today.
Liar or not;that is not the case.
He can tell the future.
WHAT YOU SAY?wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2014,19:02) From another thread: Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely? That God foreknows what THEY are going to do? Or that God is going to FORCE them to go after other gods, thereby MAKING all this stuff happen?
Mike,
Thanks for your input. It's kind of funny that when I was first reading through the OT it did not take long before I could “predict” how the Israelites would react. Obviously my “prediction” did not mean I had anything to do with their sinning against God but it also had nothing to with my foreseeing it or forcing it either.Actually I have been somewhat shocked so far that the scriptures can be interpreted so well that God through His power could achieve so much of what in the past I believed to be items He “foresaw”.
I'm just after truth, not sure what I believe yet.
Thanks – Wm
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2014,17:32) This is a very good question. Most would no doubt say that he knows everything, implying that when he created Satan before he fell, he knew full well he would fall, and so loved him up until the point that he knew he would fall. Seems weird to my limited mind. But here is where I am now with this. God knows everything that is in line with his will. What he doesn't know and control is free will. Free will essentially is what God has and he gifted us with the ability to change our mind, to reject him, or to love him and align our will with his. So it is a chance that he takes and lets it play out.
However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. So if he knows we are destined to not make it or not be as fruitful, he is able to change things to get the best possible result with all of us. But he cannot and will not ever over ride our decisions, only our circumstances.
That said, God must also live outside of the dimension of Time-Space that he created and if so, a part of him perhaps can see all of time-space in a moment. Perhaps this is why he is able to get the best possible outcome for us.
Luke 13:6
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 “Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 “But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 'And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'
T8,
Thanks for your input.I believe there is some misunderstood twist to “God knowing the future”. Some scriptures seems to indicate that God does not know an outcome (“now I know”, “if”, etc.), and like terraricca I do not believe that God has any part in evil (and knowingly creating a “satan” seems to make God taking part in it). However I'm just after the truth that I believe is in scripture, so I'm just questioning the assumption that God knew the future to make sure it is not based on a 'tradition' instead of 'truth'.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2014,15:05) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,23:46) Skt In construction
Yes, of automated systems.
my experience is more in civil Engineering and general contracting side, in commercial and industrial chemical plantsQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,11:52) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,15:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,10:09) T. You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
WYou forgot one thing :Satan his a liar
T.Satan knew that he will have all the kingdoms on the earh.
As you can see it today.
Liar or not;that is not the case.
He can tell the future.
WHAT YOU SAY?wakeup.
wyou should read the book of Job again and understand it ,it would answer your question(s)
because so far you are of track ,not on it
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,23:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,11:52) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,15:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,10:09) T. You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
WYou forgot one thing :Satan his a liar
T.Satan knew that he will have all the kingdoms on the earh.
As you can see it today.
Liar or not;that is not the case.
He can tell the future.
WHAT YOU SAY?wakeup.
wyou should read the book of Job again and understand it ,it would answer your question(s)
because so far you are of track ,not on it
T.Is that your answer?
Not much?wakeup.
Mike
also understand that God law is the truth ;just the same way the earth was created in truth ,meaning that all holds together by the truth ,and it is when we walk outside of that truth that all things begins to breaking apart ,as soon as sin entered the world it broke the rule of God'slaw of truth ,and deterioration began, so Satan challenge towards God only brought him a condemned and temporary kingdom ,that would last until the truth as been restored ,because it is impossible for God to lie ,it is his son that his the heir not Satan
this is why when Christ died it became certain that the temporary kingdom of Satan ad received his dead line ,
also understand that many things can go missing in God's creation before it would become so dangerous for the disappearance and destruction of all men would be next in line ,
this is why their is a time limit on it given by God .not to cross
T8,
Quote However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. I believe God always controls the timelines in order to proof the hearts of men and to prepare the way for his children.
I don't see how controlling the timelines involves controlling a person. He simply sets up events in each of our lives in order to further his plans.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,18:40) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,23:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,11:52) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,15:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,10:09) T. You really believe that God can NOT see the future;BUT SATAN CAN?
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain,
***shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world***
*** in a moment of time***.Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
What have you got to say?
wakeup.
WYou forgot one thing :Satan his a liar
T.Satan knew that he will have all the kingdoms on the earh.
As you can see it today.
Liar or not;that is not the case.
He can tell the future.
WHAT YOU SAY?wakeup.
wyou should read the book of Job again and understand it ,it would answer your question(s)
because so far you are of track ,not on it
T.Is that your answer?
Not much?wakeup.
wmay it is the best answer for you
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2014,20:23) T8, Quote However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. I believe God always controls the timelines in order to proof the hearts of men and to prepare the way for his children.
I don't see how controlling the timelines involves controlling a person. He simply sets up events in each of our lives in order to further his plans.
kyou make it sound like men is the focus of things ,BUT HE IS NOT IT IS THE GLORY OF GOD ,
THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT ;
1) THE FLOOD
2) THE WILL OF GOD TO DESTROY THE NATION OF ISRAEL PRIOR TO ENTER THE PROMISED LAND ,
AND SEE WHAT PREVENTED GOD OF DOING IT
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,22:09) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2014,20:23) T8, Quote However, I somehow think that he has control of the timeline in that he does whatever is possible within free will to produce the best fruit in us. I believe God always controls the timelines in order to proof the hearts of men and to prepare the way for his children.
I don't see how controlling the timelines involves controlling a person. He simply sets up events in each of our lives in order to further his plans.
kyou make it sound like men is the focus of things ,BUT HE IS NOT IT IS THE GLORY OF GOD ,
THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT ;
1) THE FLOOD
2) THE WILL OF GOD TO DESTROY THE NATION OF ISRAEL PRIOR TO ENTER THE PROMISED LAND ,
AND SEE WHAT PREVENTED GOD OF DOING IT
T,Please site those Scriptures so that I know where they are. Thank you.
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