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Quote (Baker @ Jan. 21 2011,03:10) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 20 2011,21:13) Irene, its not the name calling and things im thankyou him for, , its scriptual things im thanking him for.
I learnt a lot from him.
Shimmer! Would you be so kind and tell me what I missed in the Scriptural truths JA thought you???
I am curious….
Peace Irene
Hi Irene and all.I asked Jay questions and he answered, and he answered well. I learnt amazing things from reading his posts, things I will never forget. And I am so thankful for that.
I wont be posting as much on this forum anymore. The reason is I believe we have entered the last days.
I have started reading and posting in the past few days on a forum which speaks only of the last days. So to me, all this debating here is not what my mind is on anymore.
For example I just found out yesterday, have you heard of all the mysterious animal deaths in the past few weeks ? Birds by the thousands falling out of the sky, fish dead all over the world, strange. And as I said iv had this feeling all week, and only just found out about these mysterious animal deaths yesterday. I havent watched the news in months, so im a bit behind whats been happening.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22692
http://beforeitsnews.com/stories/in/0000000000000169
Well, enjoy the discussions and debates.
God bless.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2011,00:03) I do no hold that the current books of Enoch are from God though I do believe they are altered variations of an origional which is from God. Jesus teaches us that angels neither marry or are given in marriage and Enoch disagrees. I do not except the spin that God changed his laws as God does not change and can foresee all things.
The application of God's law may change giving the appearance of God's law changing. I have heard no explanation on how this could be the case with angels and marrying.
Hi Kerwin. I havent read the book of Enoch in ages so I cant say much about it. All I remember is that Enoch was shown things about Angels/Watchers and things that are unseen. And that Jude quotes from the book of Enoch.Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 21 2011,07:55) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 21 2011,03:10) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 20 2011,21:13) Irene, its not the name calling and things im thankyou him for, , its scriptual things im thanking him for.
I learnt a lot from him.
Shimmer! Would you be so kind and tell me what I missed in the Scriptural truths JA thought you???
I am curious….
Peace Irene
Hi Irene and all.I asked Jay questions and he answered, and he answered well. I learnt amazing things from reading his posts, things I will never forget. And I am so thankful for that.
I wont be posting as much on this forum anymore. The reason is I believe we have entered the last days.
I have started reading and posting in the past few days on a forum which speaks only of the last days. So to me, all this debating here is not what my mind is on anymore.
For example I just found out yesterday, have you heard of all the mysterious animal deaths in the past few weeks ? Birds by the thousands falling out of the sky, fish dead all over the world, strange. And as I said iv had this feeling all week, and only just found out about these mysterious animal deaths yesterday. I havent watched the news in months, so im a bit behind whats been happening.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22692
http://beforeitsnews.com/stories/in/0000000000000169
Well, enjoy the discussions and debates.
God bless.
Shimmer! Georg watches Fox every day and He has said nothing about those Animals, You know people in the past have predicted the end times before. I am for one not going to get all worked up about it. We watch Glenn Beck and He has said that because our Dollar is fallen so much, that prizes will double in the next two years. The reason is that the elite want a World Government. That has been in the making ever since the time of the Babylonians….It will have to get a lot worse, before Christ returns. Stay close to Christ, there you are save…..
Peace and Love IreneShimmer! I have to correct myself, I was wrong, Glenn Beck did say something about the birds and the fish. However He also said that this has happened before. And Georg does not think we are in the time of troubles yet…..
Even if we were I for one would not be that scared, because also Scriptures tell us that nobody kbows when that will be, not even Jesus did, only God Almighty does….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2011,22:08) Shimmer, I have challenged certain people to support what they say with scripture and reason and yet they do not do so. This makes me believe that either they do not have and support or that they do not believe that their reasoning is convincing.
Kerwin! I don't know if you ever asked me about flesh and blood, but Scripture says this in1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Since the Angel are in Heaven, they do not have flesh and blood….
Paul goes on and says this1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 20 2011,21:22) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2011,15:10) Mike Boll, I am glad you understand my take on about resurected humans have a immortal flesh blood body that is from heaven. I believe I also understand yours.
I believe angels come in more than one kind and some kinds have flesh and blood bodies. I do not believe all do.
It is too much to claim that heavenly beings have flesh and blood.
Hi Adam and Kerwin!
I agree with Adam here. Especially if the scripture says FLESH cannot enter heaven. I know Kerwin thinks that refers to HUMAN flesh, but the scripture doesn't actually say that.
Nor does Jesus say “A spirit does not have HUMAN flesh, as you see I have”.
Kerwin, do you have anything to back up your understanding besides Paul's mention of the different kinds of flesh THINGS ON EARTH have?
peace and love to both of you,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Jan. 21 2011,01:10) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 20 2011,21:13) Irene, its not the name calling and things im thankyou him for, , its scriptual things im thanking him for.
I learnt a lot from him.
Shimmer! Would you be so kind and tell me what I missed in the Scriptural truths JA thought you???
I am curious….
Peace Irene
Me too!Hi Kerwin,
Georg posted this scripture in another thread………..what do you think about it?
2 Corinthians 5:16 NASB ©
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.Another one to add in with 1 Cor 15:45, 2 Cor 3:17-18, and Galatians 1:1 and 12? Or am I understanding it wrong?
peace and love,
mikeFor brother Mike…… on resurrection of Jesus taken from a book “Evidence for Jesus” by James D.G. Dunn;
“But What do We Mean by 'Resurrection'?
Our task is not quite finished. For thus far we have simply used the key term given us by our sources – 'resurrection'. The empty tomb led to the conclusion, 'God has raised Jesus from the dead'. The 'sightings' were understood as appearances of Jesus as 'raised' by God on the third day after his crucifixion. But what do we mean by 'resurrection'? What actually happened on that third day? What is it that this word which comes now so easily to a Christian's lips describes?
Answer: We don't know! According to our data, no one actually witnessed 'the resurrection'. We cannot even be sure that 'it' could be witnessed. At best a disappearance, or, I suppose, 'dematerialization' of the corpse was as much as would be visible to the eye.
'Resurrection' is itself not part of our data. It is an inference drawn from our primary data – empty tomb and appearances. Whether the inference came from heavenly information (as represented, for example, in Matt. 28.6), or as a direct deduction from the events themselves, makes no difference. 'Resurrection' is a deduction not a datum. More important, when we add the word 'body' to the word 'resurrection'(resurrection body) we have to take note of the fact that the New Testament writers present different conceptions of what a 'resurrection body' is. In Luke's account Jesus' resurrection body is very 'physical': Jesus himself says, 'Handle me and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24.39). Paul however makes a clear distinction between the body of this life (= 'physical or natural body') and the resurrection body (= 'spiritual body') (I Cor. 15.42-46). And he concludes his discussion on the point with the ringing declaration:
'I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God …' (I Cor. 15.50). What Luke affirms (Jesus' resurrection body was flesh and bones) Paul denies (the resurrection body is not composed of flesh and blood)! In view of popular misunderstanding among Christians on this issue the point needs to be clarified and stated with some precision. In I Corinthians Paul seems to have been writing for Greeks who found the idea of the resurrection of this body impossible to imagine (I Cor. 15.12, 35; cf. Acts 17.32). Hence the two most important features of this part of his argument in I Cor. 15. On the one hand he insists on the resurrection of the body. But at the same time he makes his distinction between this body and the resurrection (= spiritual) body.Paul believed in the resurrection of the body, but not the resurrection of this body. Properly speaking, then, Paul believed in a 'spiritual' resurrection; 'spiritual' is his word. There will be continuity between the person that was and the person that will be. But there will also be difference. Paul himself uses the analogy of the relation between the body of the seed and the body of the plant (I Cor. 15.36-38) – an analogy of continuity, but also of difference between different bodies, between physical body and spiritual body ('You foolish man!. . . What you sow is not the body which is to be . . .'). The flexibility which Paul shows in his conception of the resurrection is a warning Beliefs about the Resurrection to us against thinking that there was a hard and fast, or single, uniform understanding of the resurrection in the beginning. On the other hand, this recognition of a degree of ambiguity in the concept 'resurrection' should not be made an excuse to empty it of all real content. There is no justification for reducing the meaning of 'the resurrection of Jesus' to something like, 'the continuing significance of Jesus', or 'the disciples' realization that Jesus' message could not die'. By 'resurrection' they clearly meant that something had happened to Jesus himself. God had raised him, not merely reassured them. He was alive again, made alive again with the life which is the climax of God's purpose for humankind, not merely retrieved from the jaws of death but conqueror over death, 'exalted to God's right hand'. It was this glowing conviction which lay at the heart of the chain reaction which began Christianity.
At the same time, it needs to be repeated that any attempt to achieve greater clarity or precision in describing this core of the Christian faith is bound to become increasingly impossible. No event of the past is recoverable, as we noted at the beginning. But an event which was never witnessed by human eye and which by definition breaks through the bounds of history, is an event which goes beyond the capacity of historical description. To that extent at least the concept 'resurrection' can properly be called a 'metaphor' or 'symbol', since it describes something we can only partially and inadequately grasp, and since those of us this side of death (whose language it is) can have no direct experiential knowledge of what we actually do mean by 'resurrection'.
……We therefore have a strange feature at the heart of this fundamental Christian belief about Jesus. At the historical level it is very hard to explain how the belief in Jesus' resurrection arose unless his tomb was empty. At the theological level, however, the emptiness of the tomb is not necessary to belief in the resurrection. The fact that both statements can be made strengthens both – strengthens the historical force of the one and the theological force of the other. It also means that as Luke and Paul differed in their emphases at this point, so Christians today can have similar differences in emphasis,
without thereby calling in question the canonical validity or orthodoxy of each other.”I hope it may be useful to you.
Peace and love to you too
AdamMike Boll,
There is no account that Jesus changed from a flesh and bone body to any other. The account of holy ones being resurrected from the grave after Jesus was crucified stated their bodies came out of the graves. Why would their bodies have to come out of the grave if they did not have a flesh and blood body? Their resurrection sounds just like Jesus’ The descriptions of the bodies of angels in some accounts are equivalent to Jesus’ body after the resurrection. Eden is said to be in the third heaven even though both flora and fauna that reside within have flesh and blood of various types. There may be more evidence but it is not coming to mind at this time.
To All………..The ONLY ONE who exists as a Being outside of a BODY is GOD who can exist (IN) or (OUTSIDE) of a Body. His body is his creation he lives IN these are Temples of GOD, “KNOW YOU NOT THAT YOUR BODY IS THE (TEMPLE) OF THE LIVING GOD, LEST YOU BE A REPROBATE” , all must have Bodies with Spirit (IN) those Bodies to exist AS A SOUL, and that Includes Jesus also. IMO
peace and love……………………………………..gene
Mike Boll,
Here is some of the context of 2 Corinthians 5:16.
2 Corinthians 5(NIV) reads:
Quote 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
It speaks of the old creation, i.e. living for one self, and the new creation, i.e. living for God. Taking that into account looking at Christ from the worldly point of view would be looking at him from the view of the sinful nature of man while looking at him from the godly point of view is looking at Christ form view of the Spirit of God.
Irene,
I understand these scriptures differently than you do. For example I do not see the implied “all” you see in 1 Chronicles 15:40 and so understand it to mean only a certain type of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. I thus find the second part of the sentence to be a qualifier that further defines the kingdom of heaven as “incorruption” and the type of flesh and blood as “corruption. To support this choice I point out that previously in 1 Corinthians 15, as part of the same reasoning, states that all flesh is not the same. I then conclude that a soul clothed with supernatural flesh and blood which comes from heaven can inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Hello Adam,
I pray you are well. Thanks for the post…….it was interesting. Your author says this:
What Luke affirms (Jesus' resurrection body was flesh and bones) Paul denies (the resurrection body is not composed of flesh and blood)!
I disagree, for as you well know, I don't believe the scriptures contradict themselves.
I believe Paul referred to the resurrection of the elect. Most of his teachings contained things that “US” and “WE” could look forward to. But the “US” and “WE” he mentions are only the elect who will be resurrected directly to heaven. In 1 Cor 15, I don't believe he is talking about those of “US” who will be resurrected to life, only to live forever on earth. So those of “US” who will be resurrected to heaven will have spiritual bodies like those of heaven have………..not fleshly bodies.I'm stumped about Jesus though. I had begun to think that Jesus was raised in his same flesh body first, then 40 days later ascended to heaven and his body was transformed into the glorious spiritual body he now has.
But Gene has pointed out a scripture that seems to imply Jesus ascended to heaven right after talking to Mary – and then came back as flesh a number of times and appeared to the disciples.
Most seem to think Jesus could “manifest” a flesh body whenever he wanted to. But I still find it hard to believe that Jesus would “lie” to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit, when in fact he WAS a spirit being who only “faked” a body for his purpose of meeting with them. To me that seems “tricky” or “deceitful”…………things Jesus would not partake in, IMO.
Gene makes a good point, as did many on this thread. But I am and always will be unable to accept that Jesus now exists as flesh when many scriptures say he is now a spirit, and he says spirits do NOT have flesh, and Paul says flesh cannot enter into heaven.
I have never been confused about “resurrection”. I have always just imagined it meant being raised back to life from the dead. What do YOU think?
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2011,20:56) Irene, I understand these scriptures differently than you do. For example I do not see the implied “all” you see in 1 Chronicles 15:40…………
And WE don't see the implied “certain kinds of flesh cannot enter heaven” that YOU see.peace to you Kerwin,
mikeMike……………..NO (PHYSICAL MATTER) of any KIND can enter (INTO) the (KINGDOM OF GOD) it (THE KINGDOM OF GOD) must enter into us. “the kingdom of God comes not with “OBSERVATION” IT IS (WITHIN) YOU”. YOU CAN'T SEE IT, BECAUSE IT IS SPIRITUAL IT IS NOT PHYSICAL. ALL PHYSICAL life BEINGS HAVE SPIRITS IN THEM THESE SPIRITS (are) who they are, It animates us and controls us, if our spirits leave our bodies they go about in arid places looking for rest just as any spirit would do, it needs a body to rest in, or it abides alone through endless time. Bodies are very important to have for spirits to exist in. IMO
peace and love………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2011,20:56) Irene, I understand these scriptures differently than you do. For example I do not see the implied “all” you see in 1 Chronicles 15:40 and so understand it to mean only a certain type of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. I thus find the second part of the sentence to be a qualifier that further defines the kingdom of heaven as “incorruption” and the type of flesh and blood as “corruption. To support this choice I point out that previously in 1 Corinthians 15, as part of the same reasoning, states that all flesh is not the same. I then conclude that a soul clothed with supernatural flesh and blood which comes from heaven can inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Kerwin! What??? A supernatural flesh and blood which comes from heaven? Where in the world do you get that from
? There is no 1 Chronicle 15:40, do you mean 1 Corinth. 15:40
Flesh and blood is no supernatural, you made that up, and not to wise to do….
You also don't seem to understand what it saysin Corinth 15 about the different kinds of flesh1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
The other flesh is of thje beast, fish etc. not humans…
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Peace Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2011,01:51) Mike……………..NO (PHYSICAL MATTER) of any KIND can enter (INTO) the (KINGDOM OF GOD) it (THE KINGDOM OF GOD) must enter into us. “the kingdom of God comes not with “OBSERVATION” IT IS (WITHIN) YOU”. YOU CAN'T SEE IT, BECAUSE IT IS SPIRITUAL IT IS NOT PHYSICAL. ALL PHYSICAL life BEINGS HAVE SPIRITS IN THEM THESE SPIRITS (are) who they are, It animates us and controls us, if our spirits leave our bodies they go about in arid places looking for rest just as any spirit would do, it needs a body to rest in, or it abides alone through endless time. Bodies are very important to have for spirits to exist in. IMO peace and love………………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Angels ARE spirits. Jesus IS a spirit. Yet you and I both believe they have bodies.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2011,01:26) Hello Adam, I pray you are well. Thanks for the post…….it was interesting. Your author says this:
What Luke affirms (Jesus' resurrection body was flesh and bones) Paul denies (the resurrection body is not composed of flesh and blood)!
I disagree, for as you well know, I don't believe the scriptures contradict themselves.
I believe Paul referred to the resurrection of the elect. Most of his teachings contained things that “US” and “WE” could look forward to. But the “US” and “WE” he mentions are only the elect who will be resurrected directly to heaven. In 1 Cor 15, I don't believe he is talking about those of “US” who will be resurrected to life, only to live forever on earth. So those of “US” who will be resurrected to heaven will have spiritual bodies like those of heaven have………..not fleshly bodies.I'm stumped about Jesus though. I had begun to think that Jesus was raised in his same flesh body first, then 40 days later ascended to heaven and his body was transformed into the glorious spiritual body he now has.
But Gene has pointed out a scripture that seems to imply Jesus ascended to heaven right after talking to Mary – and then came back as flesh a number of times and appeared to the disciples.
Most seem to think Jesus could “manifest” a flesh body whenever he wanted to. But I still find it hard to believe that Jesus would “lie” to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit, when in fact he WAS a spirit being who only “faked” a body for his purpose of meeting with them. To me that seems “tricky” or “deceitful”…………things Jesus would not partake in, IMO.
Gene makes a good point, as did many on this thread. But I am and always will be unable to accept that Jesus now exists as flesh when many scriptures say he is now a spirit, and he says spirits do NOT have flesh, and Paul says flesh cannot enter into heaven.
I have never been confused about “resurrection”. I have always just imagined it meant being raised back to life from the dead. What do YOU think?
peace and love to you,
mike
Hi brother Mike,
Thanks for such appreciation of my post. In fact I see all scriptures as God's words written in human words. Therefore there are certainly human bias here and there. I agree with Paul on resurrection as the first hand information being the earliest tradition of Christianity. Paul sees Jesus as resurrected with spiritual body like what you call here. He also argues with the intelligent Christians at Corinth regarding the pattern of resurrection with the type of body with which the dead are risen. He also calls them “O fool!” don't you know that old (corruption, mortal) body of flesh and blood has to be sown to get the new (incorruption, immortal) body which will be different from the the body which is sown in corruption. What does he means here? He says that there will be no similarity between the old body and new body. He also says that Jesus now a life-giving spirit which means resurrected Jesus is not similar to flesh and blood Jesus. Whereas Gospels give entirely different picture by concentrating on physical flesh and bone body which is similar to earlier crucified body with wounds and holes. I see there are certainly two schools of understanding on Jesus' resurrection. After all NT writers never thought their books would be compiled in one book called NT. If you read each account it is full and independent. I take them like this I don't get problem with such understanding because they were all human beings like you and me who understood various concepts in their own way. If you take Bible inerrant then I can't help you which is proved null and void by many Biblical scholars. An ordinary reader can find such errors and contradictions in our Bible right from Genesis to Revelation.But there is no scriptural support for your belief on Jesus changed to to different body later on his ascension. I don't think anyone will agree with you on that.
Thank you for your prayers for me.
Love and peace to you too
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2011,03:19)
If you take Bible inerrant then I can't help you which is proved null and void by many Biblical scholars. An ordinary reader can find such errors and contradictions in our Bible right from Genesis to Revelation.
Hi Adam,I believe (as you already know) that ALL scriptures, OT and NT, are inspired of God and that there are no contradictions. I have literally already corrected at least FIVE “contradictions” I used to think were in the scriptures just by re-reading them and catching something the second or third or fourth time through that I overlooked during the previous time(s).
There are no contradictions………only things we don't fully understand yet.
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2011,03:19)
But there is no scriptural support for your belief on Jesus changed to to different body later on his ascension. I don't think anyone will agree with you on that.
In Phil 3:21, Paul speaks of his body being TRANSFORMED into one like Jesus now has. If HIS body can be “transformed” into a different kind of body, then why not Jesus'?The problem I have is that I can't accept that Jesus LIED to his disciples. He could have just as easily said, “Yes, I AM a spirit now, as many of you will someday be”………if that was the case. But he SPECIFICALLY implied he was NOT a spirit at that time.
Yet, we know he now is. So while I can't claim to KNOW this, it is the best I can come up with that fits in with all scriptures and ignores none of them. Or so I thought until Gene brought up John 20:17. Now I'm stuck and praying for understanding.
peace and love to you,
mike
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