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Mike,
You seem not to understand that you can legitimately understand the statement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven in at least two ways. One of those ways is narrow in that you believe all flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and the other is that mortal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I hold with the second as in the same argument Paul also specifically makes the case that all flesh is not the same showing that he is not speaking of all flesh but is instead speaking of a specific kind of flesh. He also rephrases his point in the same verse as it states flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven by stating nor can the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Adam,
Have you considered that Philo of Alexander, A Jew of the First Century, taught that there were two Adams. The first Adam is the body God shaped from the earth. The second Adam is the breath of life God breathed into the body. The first was from the earth while the secound is from heaven.
A spiritual body is from heaven and so not subject to the corruption that creation is currently subject to.
A body is by definition is physical in composition according to what I know.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 13 2011,20:31) Irene, Scripture seems to state two things on this matter. One is they sleep in their grave, as with Daniel, and the other is that they converse and are subject either to torment or bliss, as in Jesus parable. A ghost is just a soul whose body has died. From what I understand it is just a shade of the person and not the whole person and so must at best be disabled and so have limited function. It may be in expressing the limitations of a soul whose body has perished that scripture appears unclear about the state of souls.
I have trouble believing in free roaming ghosts outside of Hades; but the evidence seems clear that the writers of scripture did. As that appears to be so I bow to their superior knowledge. In any case they do not seem common even in scripture.
Some of the evidence I speak of is that Jesus gave proofs he was not a ghost and scripture declares he gave many proofs he was alive, Acts 1:3.
References
Acts 1:3(NIV) reads:Quote After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
Kerwin! Ask yourself of what material Ghosts made of. There is no Scripture that I can think of that they are flesh and blood like a Human being. We when we die sleep in our graves, Scripture says, and know nothing.Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
We do know that there are Demons. We know that the worst kind are in chains, but Satan and some of his Demons are still on this earth, and they can appear as a Ghost any time….
to make it look like it is a loved one that comes to talk to us…..We should always go by Scriptures and not our imagination….
Jesus is the firstborn of the death
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence….
He was a Spirit when He appeared to the Apostles….And they thought they seen a Ghost….To show them that He was resurrected He had to show them…They had doubted and were scared…..I know that some think that Jesus is flesh and blood, I don't, because Scripture says in
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Jesus is the only one that has resurrected from the death. Humans have not, they will have to wait there turn in the resurrection. Why would the Bible even talk about a resurrection if they already here as Ghosts?
Peace and Love Irene
Kerwin,
Yes, a body is physical and visible composed of material.Please keep reminding the posters … Better. Since REMINDING is not feasible having never known it, keep telling them.
Spirit is immaterial and invisible,
Body is material and visible.Mikeboll64 wants to invent a new entity called a Spirit Body which is invisible material,
When Mikeboll64 cannot understand something he gets angry and forces a compromise of his own simpleton understanding BUT he then subtly changes his view as he learns that his inscrutable idea doesn't work. While it is good that he changes his view, it would be better if he were to admit his error and apologise to those he misled in his previous rhetoric because many in this forum went following this false prophet to their doom, Scripturallywise.all
a body is a containment area,it is the outer perimeter of our being,because the same way the universe is made from most empty space so are all bodies,
just because we are the way we look ,the all universe bodies are similar and different ,we also are in itself a universe,and if God has made it this way so that we all have common differences in our bodies and yet be different so it is.
this is showing clearly that all as been created by one God,
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 13 2011,20:34) Mike, You seem not to understand that you can legitimately understand the statement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven in at least two ways. One of those ways is narrow in that you believe all flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and the other is that mortal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I hold with the second as in the same argument Paul also specifically makes the case that all flesh is not the same showing that he is not speaking of all flesh but is instead speaking of a specific kind of flesh. He also rephrases his point in the same verse as it states flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven by stating nor can the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Kerwin……..This post is right on, many think because it says flesh and blood can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven that means as long as we have flesh and blood we can not be in the kingdom of GOD, pure foolishness, Jesus was flesh and blood and he certinally was in the Kingdom of GOD, after he recieved the Holy Spirit into him at the Jordan river, he became a son of GOD. Jesus explained the concept of flesh and blood not being able to enter the kingdom of God by saying, “the Kingdom of GOD comes not with “OBSERVATION” but is (WITHIN) you”, SIMPLE EVEN A CHILD SHOULD BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT.Spirit is NOT a “BODY” and NEVER WAS or NEVER can BE a “BODY”, of any type As JA and I have said. Spirit is what is (IN) a BODIES. It is the false teachings of the MYSTERY PAGAN RELIGIONS that have invented the Idea That Spirits have real Bodies scripture does not support that teaching at all.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2011,11:59) But we know he can't still have that flesh body now, right? How could he? Scriptures specifically tell us that flesh cannot “inherit God's Kingdom”, which I take to mean “enter heaven”. And scriptures specifically tell us that Jesus is a spirit now.
MIke…………..No WE don't KNOW that Mike Jesus now exists with a BODY with SPIRIT (IN) IT, Just as He was raised with and will return with a body of flesh and bone. The “WHOLE” HOUSE OF ISRAEL IS SHOWN IN SCRIPTURE AS BEING RESURRECTED WITH FLESH AND BONE BODIES ON THIS EARTH. Mike you have bought into MYSTERY RELIGIONS false Teachings of SPIRIT “BODIES”, they do not exist Mike.It is crucial we all come to understand this it clears up a lot of scriptures for us, this is a very important subject here. IMO
peace and love………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 14 2011,01:38) all a body is a containment area,it is the outer perimeter of our being,because the same way the universe is made from most empty space so are all bodies,
just because we are the way we look ,the all universe bodies are similar and different ,we also are in itself a universe,and if God has made it this way so that we all have common differences in our bodies and yet be different so it is.
this is showing clearly that all as been created by one God,
Pierre
Pierre! You need to rethink when you say that we are like the Universe. How, when we are made from the dust of this earth.
Even though the earth is part of the Universe, we are not. We are from the dust of the earth. And to dust we shall return….
Peace IreneGene,
I don't believe there is anyone except Mikeboll64 and his blind students who believe that Spirits have bodies. To ninety-nine point nine percent of sane humanity Spirit means exactly what it says on the tin: Immaterial Being.
Mikeboll64 just has to try and force his unscriptural thoughts onto the forum but when he gets found out he denies he said what he said that started the debate in the first place.
For instance, this thread is about Spirits having Bodies. Yet, the mass of discussion is only about Jesus have a physical Spiritual Body…the only reference to SpiritUAL Body he could come up with.
Moreover, he changed Spiritual Body to Spirit Body in a pathetic and childish attempt to mislead and prove his misappointed claims.
Then, after misleading others and causing many to sin he runs away claiming he has had spiritual, or should that be SPIRIT, enlightenment!
He stayed away long enough for people to forget what he had said and then started posting again with his new theory but then realised that JustAskin was still around and he ran off claiming he had enough of debating the thread topic.
Not so, it was HIS Thread, he should have closed it down, not run off.Ask him to sum up what he believes now and how he came to believe it. And, what does he think of his original ideas and what his attitude was towards those who believed from the beginning what he believes now! Should he have 'Blocked himself' for his rude and ignorant thoughts and for misleading Irene and Terraricca.
Note that he has never apologised for misleading them but just distanced himself leaving them stranded still believing what he taught them.And this guy is a Moderator!!
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 14 2011,14:48) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 14 2011,01:38) all a body is a containment area,it is the outer perimeter of our being,because the same way the universe is made from most empty space so are all bodies,
just because we are the way we look ,the all universe bodies are similar and different ,we also are in itself a universe,and if God has made it this way so that we all have common differences in our bodies and yet be different so it is.
this is showing clearly that all as been created by one God,
Pierre
Pierre! You need to rethink when you say that we are like the Universe. How, when we are made from the dust of this earth.
Even though the earth is part of the Universe, we are not. We are from the dust of the earth. And to dust we shall return….
Peace Irene
Irenelook it this way,you first look at the body of men ,what do you see ?? main body plus some extentions arms legs head,
all inter connected right,but this is not all,look deeper and what do we find ? a world living on top of that body,right
but let go inside,everything part now is a factory in it selves,
stomac ,liver,colon,blood vessels,ect,all sort of living things are at work there,and how deeper you go there is some more,
not forgetting the brain complex structure.
is this not the samething in the univers but in a big way ?Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,19:21) Hi brother Mike,
This is where I doubt the harmony of Gospel's with Paul's understanding on Jesus' resurrection. Paul meant that Jesus rose with Spiritual(Spirit) body which may be non-tangible he even quotes that Jesus became life-giving Spirit than flesh whereas Gospels concentrate on Jesus' flesh body which was tangible and even with crucifixion wounds. I hope you will see this difference.Peace and love
Adam
Hi Adam,I pray that God is blessing you with undeserved kindnesss each and every day.
I don't see a contradiction at all, brother. I've put all the scriptures together and have come to the understanding that Jesus was raised back to life in the same body he died in. That flesh body was later transformed into the glorious body that Paul mentioned in Phil 3:21.
peace and love and nice to hear from you,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Jan. 13 2011,20:34) Mike, You seem not to understand that you can legitimately understand the statement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven in at least two ways. One of those ways is narrow in that you believe all flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and the other is that mortal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I hold with the second as in the same argument Paul also specifically makes the case that all flesh is not the same showing that he is not speaking of all flesh but is instead speaking of a specific kind of flesh. He also rephrases his point in the same verse as it states flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven by stating nor can the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Hi Kerwin,When you show me the scripture that designates only “MORTAL” flesh and blood can't enter heaven, then I will consider your conjecture.
Jesus didn't say, “Spirits do not have MORTAL flesh, as you see I have”, did he? And Paul was answering a question about what kind of bodies the dead will be raised with. He taught that just as we can easily see from men, fish and animals that all flesh is not the same, we can apply that same understanding to the fact that natural bodies are not the same as the spiritual bodies those of heaven have.
Kerwin, I have shown you Galatians 1:1 and 1:12 which both CLEARLY say that Jesus is no longer a man. Scriptures say he is NOT a man, that he IS a spirit, and that flesh cannot enter heaven.
What more do you need?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 14 2011,01:38) all a body is a containment area,it is the outer perimeter of our being,
Hi Pierre,You are right, my friend. A body is the outer membrane that contains whatever is inside of it. There are no rules that say a body has to be “visible” as some of our carnally minded brethren claim. Nor is there any rule that says just because we haven't yet designed the technology to detect the material that certain “immaterial” things are made of, that they are in fact “immaterial”. They might seem “immaterial” to us now, but so did atoms at one time.
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2011,03:01) If you believe Jesus now exists as a SPIRIT (BEING) Then prove it.
1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
How many times will I have to “prove it”?
You CAN read, right? peace and love,
mikeQuote (Istari @ Jan. 14 2011,10:24) I don't believe there is anyone except Mikeboll64 and his blind students who believe that Spirits have bodies.
Hi Istari,I must have overlooked your answer to my direct question both times I've posted it. Would you mind answering it?
What separates one angel from another?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,12:29) Hi Istari, What separates one angel from another?
mike
Hi Mike,I know, I know, the amount of space between them; right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThe outer membrane of a body is called….SKIN.
Mikeboll64, what separates one angel from another?
Well, since Angels/Spirits are 'Immaterial Beings' there is no need of a separating element.Mikeboll64, when you listen to a radio while on the move, when you use a mobilephone, are there separating elements between the channels, do the channels have bodies?
And how is it that whereever you go (within earthly reason) you receive your call AND only your call even as you rush around at lightening speed?Spirit is EVERYWHERE but only becomes tangible in the physical world when it acquires a body.
In the case of the radio and the mobile, when you 'tune' in a specific 'Spirit' and channel it's frequency.So, do radio waves have separating bodies?
If they had a body, how can MANY radios receive the SAME Body of waves AT THE SAME TIME and IN MANY PLACES ALL AT THE SAME TIME?Hmmm…sounds like the 'Dimensions' I was talking about, eh?
And, with the Mobilephone; Out of ALL the places the signal can be, it is only 'received' in by person one ONE Phone! Yet, in reality, it is EVERYWHERE!!!
Now I know you'll dismiss what I say because it is true, and only Mikeboll64 truth counts, but just think on it in private…
Shimmer has shown me that you do know truth, you just too much of a hothead to accept anything you didn't think of yourself, even from the Scriptures themselves. You need to prove all things, which Jesus showed to Thomas, was wrongful thinking…meaning that some things have to be by faith!
Hey, Mikeboll64, did you try Suicide? I said it was painless (MASH)!
How was it? Oh, of course, you can't answer – the dead can't talk!!Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 13 2011,00:00) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 08 2011,08:36) Ok, i'm going to be my usual 'free spirited' self that I used to be. Karmarie is who I used to post as, I used to spend my time “debating Bod” my friend. I loved it. i could be myself, say what I felt, and so what if I 'worded something wrong' or whatever, What is it here ? Theres some really nasty people. Not very Christianlike at all. Actually very far from it I saw more of a good spirit in my Muslim friend, seriously.
Anyway, this whole thing fits into this topic really.
“Flesh and Blood”
Forget all this strange conversaion, here is the truth,
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, or cannot enter Heaven
Flesh and Blood What is flesh and blood ?
See, people think too much in this world.
Flesh and blood is what most people are today
Too earthly.
To inheret the kingdom of God you have to be in the Spirit or spiritual, the things of the spirit/ual connect with God,
Once connected with God in this way, then you can inheret the kingdom of God.Once connected with the true spirit of God you dont sin any longer, you have peace and love and Joy,
You are no longer flesh and blood.
If I worded something wrong there or whatever please forgive and correct me, I dont really care as Im not perfect !
Shimmer: God bless you! I just wanted you to know what I believe Paul was talking about.His disertations were comparing the two dispensations of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
The old way of a brick and mortar building/temple as compared to the new way human body temple—
The old carnal law way of works and duties and rituals, dogmas, bowings, fastings, tithings, feast days, sabbath days, all forms of physical worship was changed by Jesus into the new way.Old baptism of physical water changed to the water of the word of God Eph.5:3.
The new way of spirit truth is the words of God/spirit through Jesus given to mankind as eternal truth. The new way is the infilling of the mind with spirit words of truth by Christ. The human body becomes the temple made without hands. The church which is the body of Christ built on the solid rock foundation of Jesus/words of truth from God.
Under the Law Under Grace
Flesh is the old way—-Spirit is the new way.
Mortal Immortality
Corruptible Incorruption
Weakness Power
Works FaithA new man is created by spirit words of God.
This is being born again from carnal physical works to accepting truth by faith, believing and recreating the mind unto God. IMO, TK
Hi Tim. God bless you too ! Good to see you are still around.Thankyou for that post.
Irene,
Could you please consider the words in Acts 1:3 which state “After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.” So it follows that God states Jesus gave many convincing proofs that he is alive to his disciples. Some of these proofs he gave to prove he is alive are listed in Luke 24:36:43. The only spirit I know that would fit the qualification that they did not believe Jesus was alive is the live soul of a dead person. Such a soul would not have flesh and bone as those are supplied by the body that houses it. I know of no where in scripture where a demon masquerades as a dead soul. If that was the case then would not scripture state that he gave many convincing proofs that he was not a demon?
Now lets look at what Jesus states about Hades. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he has two dead men speaking to one another and feeling either comfort or agony. We know they are dead because it states the rich man “also died and was buried” and he pleaded ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent’. Jesus verifies that those that are right with God experience comfort when he told the thief “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” We know that paradise is either the Garden of Eden or what is called the Arms of Abraham that is located in Hades by the Greek definitions of the word translated “paradise”, see reference for Paradeisos. We also know that Jesus entered Hades which is the land of the dead on the day he spoke to the thief.
I agree with Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 that the body of man returns to dust except for a few cases, i.e. Jesus. That does not tell us what happens to the soul. The writer questions if the “spirit” of a man goes upward to heaven. I do not know if spirit is soul or the breath of life in that question.
I do not believe Solomon and Jesus disagree on the existence of souls in the land of the dead. That means that they are not disagreeing on what the souls of the dead experience there. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates the dead have memories of their life as well as feeling either agony or comfort according to the soul of Abraham who stated “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony”.
It seems that In Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 Solomon is making the case that the dead do not know hope as he previously states “Anyone who is among the living has hope” and afterwards he states “they have no further reward”. That sounds like a paraphrase of Hebrews 9:27. He also seems to make the case their name, loves, and hates will be forgotten by the living as he also states “even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished”.
In regards to 1 Corinthians 14:45, Genesis 27 expresses the same idea with different words as the Adam created from the dirt is the first Adam and the breath of life that animates that body is the second Adam.
Irene a human being is not resurrected until they are clothed in a physical body. That is why Jesus strove to his disciples that he is alive and why they bear witness that he gave them proof he is alive to the entire world. A ghost is a soul and so just a part of a human being though the essential human being. God resurrects the whole human being, body, soul, and spirit. The body is not the same body that died though it looks like a perfect version of it, unless God wills otherwise. It is a body whose resiliency will not decrease as time goes on. A body that is eternal so no accident, disease, or anything else will kill the one whose soul is housed in it. We know that because scripture states there will no death or dying.
References
Luke 24:36-43(NIV) reads:
Quote While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.
There are others that I inadvertantly trashed that I will try to remember to post tommorow. Sorry for my error.
To all,
Here are the definitions of the word “body” from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary. What definition fits the context of Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15?
1 a : the main part of a plant or animal body especially as distinguished from limbs and head : TRUNK
b : the main, central, or principal part: as (1) : the nave of a church (2) : the bed or box of a vehicle on or in which the load is placed (3) : the enclosed or partly enclosed part of an automobile2 a : the organized physical substance of an animal or plant either living or dead: as (1) : the material part or nature of a human being (2) : a dead organism : CORPSE
b : a human being : PERSON3 a : a mass of matter distinct from other masses
b : something that embodies or gives concrete reality to a thing; also : a sensible object in physical space
c : AGGREGATE, QUANTITY4 a : the part of a garment covering the body or trunk
b : the main part of a literary or journalistic work : Text 2 b.
c : the sound box or pipe of a musical instrument5: a group of persons or things: as
a : a fighting unit : FORCE
b : a group of individuals organized for some purpose6 a : fullness and richness of flavor (as of wine)
b : VISCOSITY, CONSISTENCY —used especially of oils and grease
c : denseness, fullness, or firmness of texture d : fullness or resonance of a musical toneMy decision is “2 a : the organized physical substance of an animal or plant either living or dead”.
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