Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Georg…………..First of all where does it say it is OUR SPIRIT IN US, because it say there is (A) Spirit (IN) Man does not imply it is our spirit , GOD gave all Spirit into all his creation. Secondly tell us this how does a cell even KNOW HOW to Divide and even repair others Cell and recreate cells in our Bodies if some form of Spirit (Intellect) is no functioning (IN) It. So the saying, LIFE is (IN) the Blood may be more true then you think. Spirit (intellect) also function in our Minds as well, we are a complete life form all parts of us continue to function by Spirit (intellect) placed in us and that includes our whole body as well as the mind. Everything has spirit in it that has life from the smallest one celled creation to the very large wales all function by Spirit (IN) them, fish, foul, or animals, and man. IMO

The reason death takes on the term Sleeping is because the Spirit given us is the life (IN) us and (IT) goers back to GOD who gave it, it could never die or parish because spirit is life itself but that does no one any good unless it is (IN) a BODY of some kind. when you die then inter into a (unconscious) state your thoughts Parish because you mind no longer is functioning it can't function without a body to function in. , you are no longer a (BEING) or a SOUL you are then in an eternal sleep state, until GOD recreates a BODY and Adds the removed Spirit back into it and then you become a LIVING SOUL again. But without a BODY you will never live again as a SOUL. It is absolutely crucial we are resurrected with Bodies in order to continue to live as a living Souls again. Georg every resurrection in scripture has a body even Jesus did , if you believe Him when he said he was flesh and bone and was not a spirit as they assumed he was. But of course he did have spirit in his body again. Remember He commended his spirit to GOD when he was dying and when GOD raised up his body he also added the spirit (intellect) back into it.

Georg, a Spirit is not a BODY it never was a BODY, Spirits do not have bodies they are what is (IN Bodies) No one can live or exist without a body of some kind except GOD the FATHER HIMSELF who lives vicariously (IN) his creation he is the very Life of the whole creation. Why do you think it say no one have ever seen GOD? If a person wants to know the hidden attributes of GOD look at His creation we are told, WHY? because the very life force in the creation is GOD'S Spirit and they act out the way they were made to even as we do, by the Spirits in them and us driving us. IMO

peace and love to you and Irene…………………………………………gene

January 1, 2011 at 3:26 pm#230947

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,19:06)

David,

Your tenet that Jesus is immaterial is wrapped around your chosen interpretation of one scripture.

Kerwin…………i agree with that.

Peace and love………………………………….gene

January 1, 2011 at 4:43 pm#230949

Baker

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,19:01)

Irene,

The implication of your words is that you do not believe Scripture when it declares all flesh is not the same. Do you believe the flesh and blood of a pine tree are the same as the flesh and blood of a maple tree? They are not as the maple tree blood can be made syrup while the pine tree sap is more of a glue or sealant. The flesh is quite different as well one being considered hard and the other soft. Since they are both perishable they cannot inherit the imperishable. There is no scripture that states the material cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven though you appear to be saying that.

I had not heard your explanation that Jesus magnified into his flesh body when resolving the situation of his student’s fear of ghosts. I assume you mean to intensify as no other definition fits the context would mean it exits. I am not sure you mean that though. I believe instead that you mean that he took on flesh. Let’s say you are correct. The flesh he took on is obviously not natural flesh as it bears wounds without bleeding or dying. If it is not natural then what kind of flesh did he take on as not all flesh is the same? In fact like the example of the pine tree and maple tree above the flesh you state he took on does not have the same characteristics as the natural flesh of those in the church of Corinth who read or heard read Paul’s letter. So I ask “why would Paul be speaking of the flesh Jesus took on not entering the kingdom of heaven?” Would he not instead be speaking of the natural flesh of those he addressed?

There is nowhere in scripture that speaks of Jesus either putting on or taking off flesh but scripture does tell us that God closed Balaam’s eyes to the presence of an angel. We are also told God prevented two of Jesus’ students from recognizing him even as he traveled with them. In fact we do not know the characteristics of the flesh Jesus was wearing though we can speculate based on observations. Perhaps one characteristic of such a body is that it can go out of phase with matter and so pass through it. An alternative characteristic is that it can become immaterial or material according to the will of the one who it houses.

Note: This is a continuation of a discussion started on the preexistence part 2 thread.

Kerwin, just answer me one question. Can flesh and bllood go through a closed door?

Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Jhn 20:24 ¶ But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Jhn 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Jhn 20:30 ¶ And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

On two occasions Jesus appeared through closed doors.
These are signs so they would believe that it was Jesus.

You Kerwin and others just don't understand what a ransom is.

If Jesus would have risen from the death in His flesh body, the ransom could NOT take effect…..

To go through a closed door He had to be a Spirit being……but the most important thing is, that He did rise from the death for us, and you do believe that He is in Heaven with a Spiritual body, right? Or do you believe that He went to Heaven in flesh and blood?

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I also take this to heart and believe it……All those that will reign with Christ will become like Christ a Spirit being. Scriptures say so….

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Kerwin! Please pay close attention to the next Scripture….

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Peace Irene

January 1, 2011 at 4:59 pm#230951

Blocked

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2011,18:08)

In answer to the question of this thread, spirits have spirit bodies.

Very good, David. You get a gold star for the day.

If ever there are more than one thing, those things have to have some sort of body to separate one from the other, or there would not be MORE THAN one thing, but ONLY one thing.

In order for Gabriel to be identified as individual from Michael, there has to be something that separates Gabriel FROM Michael. Even if it is an invisible thin membrane of some sort, it is a body that keeps the being of Gabriel inside of it and keeps Gabriel from becoming intermixed with another being, say Michael. And their bodies are what keep them both from “blending together” and becoming one being made up from the combination of two beings.

This is why I personally believe that God must have a body of some sort also. There has to be something separating what IS the being of God from all that is NOT the being of God.

peace and love,
mike

January 1, 2011 at 5:17 pm#230953

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 01 2011,17:56)

Mike, why did you tile JA for every insult He gave you and not TILE Piere ? Pretty strange if you ask me.

Shimmer,

If I had tiled JA for every insult he gave, he would have about a million tiles by now, and you know it.

Did you not see the private warnings I gave him that he posted? Did you not see the way I pleaded for him to stop? Did you not notice that I said, “I don't want you off the site, but just to stop the verbal abuse”?

And finally, did you not get the hint when he used an instance of Jesus calling Peter “SATAN” towards you when you were only trying to help? Jesus said “Get thee behind me, Satan”, and JA said “Get thee behind me, Shimmer”.

He said his mission was to get banned. I gave him what he clearly asked for, and I'm not sorry about it at all. Until JA can grow up and discourse with respect for others, who needs him on a Christian site anyway? Not me.

Anyway, this is all water under the bridge. I am not a mod anymore. t8 has decided to leave the moderator who hasn't made a post here in 6 months in charge while he's on vacation.

Don't you even feel a LITTLE sorry for ME, Shimmer? I lost my “job” because of your angry, arrogant, and misguided friend.

peace and love,
mike

January 1, 2011 at 5:26 pm#230955

Participant

Mike…..> Again for the hundredth time Spirit do (NOT) have BODIES they are what is (IN) BODIES, and that Includes the SPIRIT of GOD also. No wonder you are so screwed up in you thinking you can't even get that simple thing right. IMO

Peace and love……………………………..gene

January 1, 2011 at 5:36 pm#230956

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 02 2011,03:17)

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 01 2011,17:56)

Mike, why did you tile JA for every insult He gave you and not TILE Piere ? Pretty strange if you ask me.

Shimmer,

If I had tiled JA for every insult he gave, he would have about a million tiles by now, and you know it.

Anyway, this is all water under the bridge. I am not a mod anymore. t8 has decided to leave the moderator who hasn't made a post here in 6 months in charge while he's on vacation.

Don't you even feel a LITTLE sorry for ME, Shimmer? I lost my “job” because of your angry, arrogant, and misguided friend.

peace and love,
mike

Mike…………I don't feel sorry for you , you should have never been a monitor in the first Place, You drew JA into what he did,IMO, but i will give you this JA is some what out spoken but aren't most of us at times, JA presented a lot of good points even if we did not agree with all of them, he caused us to think more on a spiritual level at time. IMO

peace and love……………………..gene

January 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm#230957

Blocked

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2011,17:57)

Quote

You would have to ask, why did Jesus come “in the flesh” in the first place?

I believe it was to give his human life as a “ransom” sacrifice Georg.

I haven't seen any movies where a ransom is given and then taken back. A ransom is something given in exchange. He gave up his perfect human life, his human body. He did not then forfeit the ransom and take it back.

Hi All,

Within David's statement lies the truth, I believe. A ransom is not “taken back”, right? Ahhhh, but Jesus ransomed his LIFE for us, and yet he received it back, right? So why not his body?

Here's what we have to reconcile:
1. Jesus now has a spiritual body.
2. Scripture says his BODY would NOT see decay, like the other David's body did.
3. Jesus point blank told his disciples that he was NOT spirit after he was raised from the dead but before he ascended.

I believe that Jesus was raised in the same body he died in. And saying that body was the sacrifice does not work, because his life was the sacrifice, and he got that back after. Jesus told his disciples that a spirit does not have flesh and bone, as you see I have. He showed them his holes to prove to them it was really him.

For him to have “manifested” a fake flesh body, complete with holes, and then TRICK his disciples into thinking he wasn't a spirit when he really was would have been deceitful, and Jesus would not do that.

Jesus was rasied back to earth for 40 days before he ascended. Why would he need a spiritual body at that point? He wouldn't need to have his flesh body transformed into a spiritual body until he ascended, so why transform it 40 days early?

And finally, scripture cannot be broken, and Paul makes it very clear that while David was dead and buried and his body DID see decay, Jesus' did NOT.

The only way all the scriptures fit together is if Jesus was raised in the body he died in, and then 40 days later, as he ascended, that body was transformed into the glorious, spiritual body he now has.

peace and love,
mike

January 1, 2011 at 5:44 pm#230958

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 02 2011,03:36)

Mike…………I don't feel sorry for you , you should have never been a monitor in the first Place,

And someone who has to add their own words into scripture to make it form around their doctrine shouldn't even be allowed to post on this site.

How many years have you been around HN, Gene? Hmmmm……I wonder why t8 never offered YOU the job of moderator?

mike

January 1, 2011 at 5:52 pm#230959

Participant

MIke………I don't feel sorry for you because i believe you drew JA into those remarks by you responses and we all do that at time, But to use your authority and let others manipulate to drive him off the site by your and there increasing hostilities was not right and showed immaturity on your part. JA could at time be very Salty about his convictions but you over reacted by giving him tiles, He cause us all to think more in depth on things. We all have various personalities the at time clash even the Apostles had that problem but Jesus never kicked them out, and did not Jesus say to have Salt in ourselves and also have peace. I as Shimmer, what you did to JA was wrong and He should be reinstated forth with. IMO

peace and love…………………………………..gene

January 1, 2011 at 6:06 pm#230960

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 02 2011,03:52)

Hi Gene,

You're entitled to your opinions. I'll file this one where I file the rest of them.

By the way, it's odd how you and Shimmer are so eager to point out to me when I'm “wrong” or “being immature”, but are seemingly willing to defend the antics and hate of JA to the death. I'm “immature” and “power hungry” and “used my authority wrong” while JA is “a little salty at times”? How quaint.

mike

January 1, 2011 at 6:08 pm#230961

Participant

Quote

David, your just quoting from the watchtower.

–shimmer

Shimmer, it's true that I did quote from the watchtower.
I can also quote you if you like.

Would either in itself make my statements wrong? No, it's a fallacy to dismiss something just because a certain person or group believes it. If you cannot argue the actual point made, I understand. It is easier to create ad hominim like fallacies.

January 1, 2011 at 6:09 pm#230962

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2011,18:11)

Quote

I have already answered all that I have to David,

–shimmer

Shimmer, you don't have to answer anything.

In fact, my whole point is that there are many things you can't answer because your belief on this is incorrect and unscriptural.

You originally brought it up. So, I thought you could or would want to discuss it in some detail. My apologies.

See post above. More of the same.

January 1, 2011 at 6:12 pm#230963

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 02 2011,03:44)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 02 2011,03:36)

Mike…………I don't feel sorry for you , you should have never been a monitor in the first Place,

And someone who has to add their own words into scripture to make it form around their doctrine shouldn't even be allowed to post on this site.

How many years have you been around HN, Gene? Hmmmm……I wonder why t8 never offered YOU the job of moderator?

mike

MIke ………I would not have taken it even if he did offer it to me, i have no desire to be a monitor, And i don't even agree with every thing T8 says either to be truthful with you< just as i do not agree with what most of what you say also. So why should he offer me a monitors position on (HIS) Site, i did not come here to agree with anyone, i came here to express my opinions about bible subjects. But i do agree with T8 on dethroning you though. As far as someone who has to add their own words shouldn't even be allowed to post on this site, then you and others here would have been gone along time ago IMO ,Now why don't you do the right thing a try to get JA Back. Mike try not to take this personal please i mean no offense brother.

peace and love to you and your Mike…………………….gene

January 1, 2011 at 6:16 pm#230964

Participant

Quote

David,

Your tenet that Jesus is immaterial is wrapped around your chosen interpretation of one scripture.

–Kerwin. (underline added)

How many scriptures are below?

Quote

David,

I agree that there are questions that are brought up by the observation of Jesus and the miraculous catch of fish after his resurrection but I do not know the answers.

–kerwin, underline added.

I think the scriptures provide the answers.

see next post:

January 1, 2011 at 6:17 pm#230966

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,15:50)

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 20 2010,18:34)

David, I have looked at that verse and I won't pretend that I have all of the answers because I don't.

I do know that Jesus wasn't recognized at first, and this is simply because they were blinded with grief.

It say's in Luke 24 that “Their eyes were kept from recognizing him”. But then further on….”Their eyes were opened, and they recognized him,”

Nothing hard to understand about that. They thought Jesus was dead at the time and they were grieving.

Mary didn't recognise him either, she thought he was the gardener. Apparently it was early in the morning and still dark and she thought Jesus was dead.

She wasn't exactly expecting him to be walking around alive was she ? She was grieving and when you are grieving it is as if your eyes are closed to everything else around you.

Jesus said….their sorrow would turn into joy.

So, David, think about the other thing I said, on the other thread, finding a better church.

Hi Shimmer. You don't think this is the only reason we believe he was raised a spirit do you?

I realize that on many occasions, after his resurrection, people did not recognize him and it states that they eyes were kept from recognizing him.

Quote

I have looked at that verse and I won't pretend that I have all of the answers because I don't.

The thing is, I am not puzzled by this verse at all. It fits in perfectly with the many scriptures that speak about his resurrection.

But before considering the many scriptures that actually indicate he was raised as a spirit, let's look at this scripture a little more.

“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)

The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.

“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)

Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)

This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.

After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”

Then what?

“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”

They were lacking courage to ask who this man was.

My question to you Shimmer:
If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?

I have an answer that fits the many scriptures we are about to discuss. But do you?

My question: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)

“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21

****
So, moving on to the other scriptures that make this understandable:

JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE. OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)

JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANDOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”

A ransom is the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men b
ecause they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)

JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)

Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?

JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)

Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?

1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)

Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.

The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)

It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.

Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidentl
y to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.

Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.

WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.

But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.

LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”

Shimmer, I'd like to discuss the above scriptures. I was wondering if we could begin with this:

MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”

(Also appears this way in Latin Vulgate; German Luther Bible; Contemporary English Version; New International Version; New American Standard Version. Most Bible’s translate this “form.”)
The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.”

Mark tells us that Jesus appeared “in a different form (morphe)” to these two men so that they did not recognize him. This is very clear. He simply had a different outward appearance.

Shimmer, how would you explain that?

david.

Notice that shimmer doesn't have answers either. (undeline added.)

January 1, 2011 at 6:44 pm#230968