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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2010,12:17) Mike you need to go read what Jodi wrote clearly explaining about Satan , go check it out.
I listed about 10 scriptures for Jodi in that thread Gene. She didn't answer one of them. So I bumped it for her……..twice.
Then she bailed and I've heard nothing from her.Do you remember the thread title? I don't. But if you want, we can go discuss yet another of your misunderstandings over there, okay?
Let's see how many of my 10 scriptures you have to add or omit words in to make them fit your understanding.
mike
Mike………..Spiirt is the Intellect of the Mind it is acquired by exposure of a person to it. There is a Spirit (intellect) of or from the world , there is a SPIRIT(intellect) of or from GOD, one is from below and one is from above . Or better put one is lower intellect and the other is higher intellect. If a person is from GOD he has a higher intellect recieved from above , if he is not he has that lower earthly intellect recieved from the world. “ALL THAT IS IN THE WORLD THE LUST OF THE EYES , THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE ARE FROM THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD IS PASSING AWAY AND THE LUSTS WITH IT. None of this is difficult to understand once you get rid of all the false teaching you learn a long time ago by Mystery Religions. IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2010,12:28) None of this is difficult to understand once you get rid of all the false teaching you learn a long time ago by Mystery Religions. IMO
Gene,I read the Bible for the first time in my life about two and a half years ago. I read it by myself, alone, in my own bedroom.
So why is it that you and I understand the scriptures so differently? Why is it that I am comfortable basing my understandings around the words of scripture themselves, but you must always add or omit words to make the scriptures fit around your understanding?
One of us is basing his beliefs AROUND THE SCRIPTURES. And the other one of us is basing the scriptures AROUND HIS BELIEFS. But which one is it? I would guess the one who has to add his own words into the scriptures!
Btw Gene, where did YOU learn about the scriptures? When? And who taught you your understanding of them?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2010,19:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2010,12:28) None of this is difficult to understand once you get rid of all the false teaching you learn a long time ago by Mystery Religions. IMO
Gene,I read the Bible for the first time in my life about two and a half years ago. I read it by myself, alone, in my own bedroom.
So why is it that you and I understand the scriptures so differently? Why is it that I am comfortable basing my understandings around the words of scripture themselves, but you must always add or omit words to make the scriptures fit around your understanding?
One of us is basing his beliefs AROUND THE SCRIPTURES. And the other one of us is basing the scriptures AROUND HIS BELIEFS. But which one is it? I would guess the one who has to add his own words into the scriptures!
Btw Gene, where did YOU learn about the scriptures? When? And who taught you your understanding of them?
mike
Mikedo not listen to Gene intellect spirit it is full of confusion,
he probably wen trough to many religion in is live and don't know anymore which way is the true way,neither does he recognizes the truth in scriptures;sad.
Pierre
Milke ……….Unlike you i have been reading and studying the word of GOD sense my childhood about sense i was about ten years old and as a teenager studied with my Father, who would talk about the word of GOD all the time, I studied various church teachings but never Joined a church until i was around thirty years old and have heard all kinds of false teachings and quotations of the word of GOD Just about every conjecture there ever was. And you fall right in line with 90% percent of all Christendoms teachings. One of the most obvious things I have noticed is most Just look at One scripture and seem to be unable to consider the subject they discus as a whole and then apply all scripture that relates to that subject in order to draw a conclusion of some kind. Like you when you say (Through) or (BY) when those very same word are translated in 50 or 70 different ways and then Base those words as your proof text to support you dogmas. That is why it says never let a Novice speak or teach . Mike listen i have discussed and studied the word of GOD for over over 60 years of my life and not always constantly but on and off , i have studies with the Jewish Rabbi's on scriptures and with the Jews, I was in a strict law keeping church for seven years the wwcog. And learned about how to keep all the laws including every holy days in scripture I used to fast twice a week (without food and water for 24 hrs at a time), I know for a fact 90% of Christendom is a produce of false religion of a great falling away that took place over 1700 years ago . I see there confusions Here effecting many like yourself, causing People to believe Spirit have Bodies when in fact Spirit is what is (IN) Bodies and it Has not Body of It own. By putting all the scriptures together you should easily come to see that. I am right at 70 years old and I still don't think i know everything yet but i know i have learned a lot over these many years. I also know how ignorant most People are when it comes to GODS WORDS too. IMO
peace and love……………………………….gene
Mike………A good example is look at JA and Irene on the Lucifer thing that word Lucifier is only mentioned ONCE in the entire bible, at a Place that calls him a MAN in a Prophesy that was to go to the King of Babylon. But because of some of the language and how it is written in a metaphorical sense Now this “MAN” called a (Rising Sta) a “Lucifer” becomes a invisible BEING NAMED SATAN Jumping in and out of People. And People who have mental illnesses become known as demon possessed people by these invisible Spirit Bodied Creatures call demons , which is nothing more then a translation of the word Satan which is nothing more then a translation of the Word ADVERSARY, Which is simply a SPIRIT (INTELLECT) in them. Jesus' temptation was not with a unseen Being called Satan it was with His OWN (adversarial) human Nature , which he put to death in the wilderness and Having overcome himself He was ready to be sent out into the world and be used by GOD for the very purpose GOD had intended for Him, before he ever was born or came into existence. There is more confusion and false teachings in Christendom then in any other form of religious teachings there is. IMO
I am surprised T8 would take some one that has only been studying for two years and make him a monitor Here. That is a recipe for disaster, but it does explain a lot about you and the effect you have had on this site with some very knowledgeable people Here.
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.” The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of THE RESURRECTED JESUS ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”
They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?Quote David, Distance and possible environmental conditions may well account for having trouble discerning who someone is at the distance from shore to a boat on the water. We just are not told about every detail involved. It is curious why they would be intimidated by the unknown person. They still recognized it was Jesus as one disciple had previously told Peter that was the case.
—kerwin
Kerwin, it can easily be explained while he was still at a distance. But did you read these words:
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”
They somehow knew it was the lord. (he had just performed that miracle again) So if they were aware who he was, why would they ever have to ask that question above–“Who are you?” None of them had the courage to ask him that. Why?
You are right. While still far away, Simon Peter heard (probably) John say that it was the Lord. But they brought the boat to shore. Jesus said to “bring some fish.” Peter dragged the net ashore. Jesus said: “Come have breakfast.” At that point, when they were much closer to him, within speaking distance, they were afraid to ask who he was. Yet, they knew it was the Lord (from his actions.)
Kerwin, Why would they ever have to ask who it was or be afraid to ask?
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 20 2010,18:34) David, I have looked at that verse and I won't pretend that I have all of the answers because I don't. I do know that Jesus wasn't recognized at first, and this is simply because they were blinded with grief.
It say's in Luke 24 that “Their eyes were kept from recognizing him”. But then further on….”Their eyes were opened, and they recognized him,”
Nothing hard to understand about that. They thought Jesus was dead at the time and they were grieving.
Mary didn't recognise him either, she thought he was the gardener. Apparently it was early in the morning and still dark and she thought Jesus was dead.
She wasn't exactly expecting him to be walking around alive was she ? She was grieving and when you are grieving it is as if your eyes are closed to everything else around you.
Jesus said….their sorrow would turn into joy.
So, David, think about the other thing I said, on the other thread, finding a better church.
Hi Shimmer. You don't think this is the only reason we believe he was raised a spirit do you?I realize that on many occasions, after his resurrection, people did not recognize him and it states that they eyes were kept from recognizing him.
Quote I have looked at that verse and I won't pretend that I have all of the answers because I don't. The thing is, I am not puzzled by this verse at all. It fits in perfectly with the many scriptures that speak about his resurrection.
But before considering the many scriptures that actually indicate he was raised as a spirit, let's look at this scripture a little more.
“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)
The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.
“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)
Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)
This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.
After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”
Then what?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”They were lacking courage to ask who this man was.
My question to you Shimmer:
If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?I have an answer that fits the many scriptures we are about to discuss. But do you?
My question: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)
“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21****
So, moving on to the other scriptures that make this understandable:JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE. OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANDOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”A ransom is the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)JOHN 6:51: “I
am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:
6, 7.Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”Shimmer, I'd like to discuss the above scriptures. I was wondering if we could begin with this:
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”(Also appears this way in Latin Vulgate; German Luther Bible; Contemporary English Version; New International Version; New American Standard Version. Most Bible’s translate this “form.”)
The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.”Mark tells us that Jesus appeared “in a different form (morphe)” to these two men so that they did not recognize him. This is very clear. He simply had a different outward appearance.
Shimmer, how would you explain that?
david.
So in answer to your question shimmer:
Quote So, David, think about the other thing I said, on the other thread, finding a better church.
Whereas you said you don't have the answers, and these things remain puzzling to many, I do not find them puzzling. We really should get into all those scriptures about Jesus' resurrection. There many be reasons for not wanting to be a JW, but this belief is not it.david.
David……….So When Jesus told Thomas to feel his body that was a Ghost and was Not his real body right ?, and where scripture say GOD would not allow his SOUL (body) to see CORRUPTION that was false also right , because his Body did corrupt right? Why can't anyone just post a scripture that say Jesus was raised without a Physical BODY, funny there is none. or just show us a scripture that says there are spirit bodies out there some where. And i don;t mean Spirt lead being who have bodies , but just SPIRIT BODIES. a Body alway in scripture means a PHYSICAL MATERIAL BODY> To say the last (MAN) ADAM became a LIFE giving Spirit is address in what the MAN (PHYSICAL) HUMAN BEING CAME to BE.
David address this , (IT) the body is sown in corruption (IT) (that body) is raised incorruptible. and (IT) that body is sown in weakness and (IT) (that body) is raised in POWER. Now what was sown in weakness (the body) and what was raise in power (the body). Where does it say the “Spirit” was sown in weakness and the “Spirit” was raised in Power . When a man dies the Spirit goes back to him who gave it so it is not even there , It (the body) is sown a natural BODY and IT (the body) is raised a spiritual BODY, it does not say (IT) is raised a SPIRIT BODY now does it. The word Spiritual is showing that the Spirit of LIFE is what is activating that resurected BODY and keep it alive forever. IMO
peace and love…………………………………….gene
Quote and where scripture say GOD would allow his SOUL to see CORRUPTION that was false also right , because his Body did corrupt right? Hi Gene. Perhaps you could quote scriptures like I do. You do know that I discuss that scripture above? I think you have it backwards.
Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,22:53) So in answer to your question shimmer: Quote So, David, think about the other thing I said, on the other thread, finding a better church.
Whereas you said you don't have the answers, and these things remain puzzling to many, I do not find them puzzling. We really should get into all those scriptures about Jesus' resurrection. There many be reasons for not wanting to be a JW, but this belief is not it.david.
Davidyes you explain what i could not so clearly do,about Jesus resurrection,and his body,
but yes thanks
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 23 2010,13:23) shimmer your info came from Mark;The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
so were are your scriptures ,??to justify your NO.
No Terrarica, not Mark but John.
John 20:11-29 (ESV)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic,”Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Jesus and Thomas
Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Mike Boll,
You stated I did not answer your question though I did by inference. According to Jesus there are two tests that can be used to tell if someone is a spirit or not. Those tests are that spirit can neither eat nor can they be physically touched. In the case of the two angels that visited Lot they both ate and were touched as one grabbed Lot thus touching him and being touched in return.
In the observation of Mosses and Elijah we do not have these tests but we do have the fact that the disciples believed they were material beings. The disciples being students of Jesus were informed on the true doctrine and thus had no reason to behave like that the two holy men being material beings was in line with the true doctrine. Jesus did not take the moment to correct them if they were mistaken. From these factors it seems reasonable to believe the disciples viewed two individuals in material bodies of flesh and bone.
Thank you for the fourteen scriptures to appear to be stating contradictory things about seeing God.
George,
The word “spirit” has a multiple of definitions and thus it may mean different things at different times. I therefore need to see the word in use in order to aid me in determining the correct definition for that particular usage.
When spirit states that we are to worship God in spirit is means we are to live by the spirit thus worshipping God with our every word and action.
The spiritual world, even though it is normally unseen, appears to be a three dimensional world just like the current world. When Balaam confronted an angel that angel appeared to be physical to the Ass even though unseen by Balaam. Balaam was able to see it later when God opened his eyes. The tree of life in the third heaven appears as a tree.
Gene,
You made two good points. The first being that Jesus stated the temple of his body would be rebuilt and the second being that creation will delivered from is enslavement to corruption.
Irene,
I do not know who the righteous dead whom were raised when Jesus died were. I believe they underwent the final resurrection because I believe they were important enough to be mentioned in the rest of the New Testament if they were still among those in the perishable body and yet there is no word of them.
As for seeing God vs. not seeing him, Scripture states both as Mike Boll made clear with fourteen scriptures he quoted a page or so back. It is my belief they are speaking in different senses and do not actually disagree with each other. I believe the same is true of ascending.
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