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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,11:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,10:51) Spirit does not have a BODY IT IS WHAT LIVES (IN) BODIES,
Why Gene? Why?Why do you keep posting the same thing when you agree that angels have bodies and scripture says angels ARE spirits?
You agree that Jesus has a body, and scripture says Jesus IS now a spirit.
I just don't get it. It's like you just prefer your own rendition of the scriptures over the actual scriptures.
peace and love,
mike
Mike…………In case you not understanding as it appears , I will repeat it to you . Angels are (NOT) Spirits they Have SPIRITS (IN) them made by GOD installed (IN) their bodies and then GOD sends then out to minister . Your presuming because you can't see them they don't have bodies i have already shown you that is not true , GOD can cause anyone to disappear right now if he wanted to Jesus disappeared from his disciples and was seen walking on water completely across the sea, and Peter walked on water all this was done with a physical body. Asack Meshak and Abidgo were Physically tossed into a fiery furnace and can out with a Physical body not even a hair singed on them. You simply do not seem to understand the Power of GOD and what he can do (IN) Physical Bodies, this might help < "DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND IN THREE DAYS (I) (GOD) SHALL RAISE (IT) (that body) UP.Mike you and other here have bought into (THE LIE) many years ago and have never let it go. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Gene, I don't agree with you at all about Jesus and pre-existance because I do believe Jesus pre-existed as the scriptures say he did, but that is another subject. But with this, I agree with you completely. They don't understand. And it's sad.
And Gene, this is important, if we believe with all of our heart that Jesus was risen from the dead then we are saved, and I find it sad that Mike would say something else and say it as if it is truth, and lead others to see it how he believes it to mean.
And Mike, Gnostics believed as you do that Jesus was risen as a spirit being and still is a spirit being, and it is this which John warns about. That Jesus was not just a spirit being on earth and was not a spirit being after he was raised. No. He was in the flesh right through.
To All,
A scripture that bears on the bodies of the resurrected.
Matthew 27:51-53(NIV):
Quote At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
Mike………..What makes you so different then the Gnostic's, there end was to separate Jesus from Human Likeness,
I believe that Jesus TRULY came in the flesh Gene. That right there makes me different from the Gnostics. I don't believe in a three member “Godhead” Gene. That right there makes me different from the Trinitarians. So please stop with the false labels, okay? It's been months that we've been hearing this from you. Enough already.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
You reasoning service the same goal as the Gnostic's did, it separates Jesus from our (exact) identity.Jesus is NOT “our exact same identity”, Gene. He never has been and never will be. Even as a human, he had no earthly father. Face it Gene, the HOPE is that we someday might have our “lowly bodies TRANSFORMED into glorious bodies” like Jesus'. The hope was NEVER that our Messiah would be “EXACTLY like us”.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
Jessu can in flesh and blood dies and was raised (IN) that same body that died and was taken up to heaven in the very body he was raised In and will return in that same body he ascended in> That is what scripture say why can you just believe it MIKE>
I WILL believe it Gene. If only you would show me the scripture that says what you just claimed.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
Mike why don't you talk to us about the valley of dead Bones then, see if you can twist that up also.
I already did Gene. I pointed out that these bones with flesh weren't said to be in the Kingdom of God. I also reminded you about the difference between visions and real life.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
Shimmer understand it right Jesus was born in a flesh body he died in a flesh body and was raised in a flesh body and ascended in a flesh body and will descend in a flesh body. As scripture say he will. And he will abolish all your and the trinitarians false teaching about him at his return as it say he will in 2 Ths 2. IMO
Well then, I guess he'd better start by abolishing Paul, who wrote 2 Thessalonians 2. Because it was this same Paul who taught us that flesh cannot enter God's Kingdom.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
He is (EXACTLY) in every way a son of Man just the exact same as we are son of MAN also.
So YOUR mother was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God also, Gene? You also don't have an earthly father? No Gene. Jesus was different from any of us from his very human conception. Not to mention his pre-existence as the one through whom God created everything.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:39)
and preach there separatist religion driving Jesus way from our identity with him in like terms as human beings one to another.
Jesus is not a human being any longer Gene. He is now a spirit. Do you not believe those scriptures? I do.peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:53) Mike…………In case you not understanding as it appears , I will repeat it to you . Angels are (NOT) Spirits they Have SPIRITS (IN) them
Hebrews 1:14 NIV
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Shimmer and Gene, what is it about this scripture that you don't understand?
How about all the angels of Satan who were the SPIRITS that possessed many people in Jesus' days on earth?
Angels ARE spirits, Gene. Why don't you believe this scripture?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,11:18) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 20 2010,08:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,03:43) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 20 2010,02:51) Mike! I too agree that Jesus was in the flesh when he rose from the death. The reason i say that is Jesus asked his Father this Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
if Jesus was resurrected as a glorified body, He did not have to say that….
Or He manifested in order to show Thomas his wounds…
it is just a little confusing to me, because Maria Magdalene did not recognize Jesus and thought that He was the Gardner….either way we knoe that he is with his Father now….
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene,What Jesus said in John 17:5 was before he was crucified and raised back to life, so I don't understand how that scripture says anything about the body he was raised back to life in.
And along with Mary the Magdalene, even his disciples did not recognize him at times after he was raised. But I don't know if that had to do with God “transforming” his fleshly body to look like someone the disciples and Mary didn't know, or if it had to do with God “closing their eyes” so they could not recognize Jesus until He “opened their eyes” to see and recognize him.
But you are right that he is now with the Father and therefore cannot still be flesh.
peace and love,
mike
Mike no, read verse 4Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
That was after he was resurrected, he finished the work here on earth and then He asked his Father to give Him the glory He had with Him before the world was.
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene,Are you suggesting that the Book of John is written out of chronological order? Because it's not until chapter 18 that Jesus is arrested.
And the “work” Jesus was sent to do was to teach of God's coming Kingdom, and to properly train the ones his Father had given him out of the world to carry on that teaching after he was gone. I would say that everything that happened to him after 17:4 was not so much “work that he had to do”, but things he had to suffer to fulfill the prophecies.
peace and love,
mike
Mike! The Bible is not always written in chronological order. When I read John 17:5 it says that He wants the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was. Now ask yourself, is that what Jesus asked his Father before his resurrection or after His resurrection? I say AFTER.
Why would He say that before His resurrection??
Peace and Love IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,14:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:53) Mike…………In case you not understanding as it appears , I will repeat it to you . Angels are (NOT) Spirits they Have SPIRITS (IN) them
Hebrews 1:14 NIV
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Shimmer and Gene, what is it about this scripture that you don't understand?
How about all the angels of Satan who were the SPIRITS that possessed many people in Jesus' days on earth?
Angels ARE spirits, Gene. Why don't you believe this scripture?
mike
Why did you put my name there ? What has this to do with me ?Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 20 2010,10:46) Shimmer, I'm not quite understanding what you are saying.
Are you saying that Jesus is in the Flesh in Heaven?
Yes Jay, He is.Quote Please explain how he has done that.
With God all things are possible. Can you explain how the earth or the heavens were made ?Quote I mean, how can Jesus' flesh [and blood] body be 'in them all'
Jesus himself wasn't in them was he ? The Holy Spirit was in them. Jesus was in Heaven and the Holy Spirit was sent.Quote how is Jesus in 'one place' in Heaven.
Well I'm sure Jesus can be anywhere he wants to be in Heaven. And Heaven isn't the stars and so on that we see from here either it's a place somewhere, beautiful, something where even the thought of it has not entered into mans mind.Quote
God, then, must also be Flesh in Heaven…is that so?
No Jay. Only Jesus is.Shimmer.
I can't find that other thread. If you like, we could discuss it here. Let's begin with a puzzle.Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.”
The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of THE RESURRECTED JESUS ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”
They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?david
David,
Distance and possible environmental conditions may well account for having trouble discerning who someone is at the distance from shore to a boat on the water. We just are not told about every detail involved. It is curious why they would be intimidated by the unknown person. They still recognized it was Jesus as one disciple had previously told Peter that was the case.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,11:53) Mike…………In case you not understanding as it appears , I will repeat it to you . Angels are (NOT) Spirits they Have SPIRITS (IN) them
Hebrews 1:14 NIV
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Shimmer and Gene, what is it about this scripture that you don't understand?
How about all the angels of Satan who were the SPIRITS that possessed many people in Jesus' days on earth?
Angels ARE spirits, Gene. Why don't you believe this scripture?
mike
Mike………..A spirit (intellect) is what posses everyone it just depends on what KIND it is , Clean or unclean , good or evil Spirit is Just (INTELLECT) it is what animates people to do what they do, when are you ever going to get that?. GOD is SPIRIT and can be (IN) a person just as He was (IN) Jesus. Man when are you going to understand that?peace and love…………………………gene
David, I have looked at that verse and I won't pretend that I have all of the answers because I don't.
I do know that Jesus wasn't recognized at first, and this is simply because they were blinded with grief.
It say's in Luke 24 that “Their eyes were kept from recognizing him”. But then further on….”Their eyes were opened, and they recognized him,”
Nothing hard to understand about that. They thought Jesus was dead at the time and they were grieving.
Mary didn't recognise him either, she thought he was the gardener. Apparently it was early in the morning and still dark and she thought Jesus was dead.
She wasn't exactly expecting him to be walking around alive was she ? She was grieving and when you are grieving it is as if your eyes are closed to everything else around you.
Jesus said….their sorrow would turn into joy.
So, David, think about the other thing I said, on the other thread, finding a better church.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,03:43) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 20 2010,02:51) Mike! I too agree that Jesus was in the flesh when he rose from the death. The reason i say that is Jesus asked his Father this Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
if Jesus was resurrected as a glorified body, He did not have to say that….
Or He manifested in order to show Thomas his wounds…
it is just a little confusing to me, because Maria Magdalene did not recognize Jesus and thought that He was the Gardner….either way we knoe that he is with his Father now….
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene,What Jesus said in John 17:5 was before he was crucified and raised back to life, so I don't understand how that scripture says anything about the body he was raised back to life in.
And along with Mary the Magdalene, even his disciples did not recognize him at times after he was raised. But I don't know if that had to do with God “transforming” his fleshly body to look like someone the disciples and Mary didn't know, or if it had to do with God “closing their eyes” so they could not recognize Jesus until He “opened their eyes” to see and recognize him.
But you are right that he is now with the Father and therefore cannot still be flesh.
peace and love,
mike
Mike! Georg agrees with you on that. I however still don't know for sure…….So lets leave it at that. The main thing here is that Jesus did go to Heaven in a Spiritual Body…….That is also one Scripture that shows us that….I have used that Scripture in the preexisting tread to prove Jesus went back in a Spiritual Body also………Peace and love IreneThe Spiritual Body
By David Pyleshttp://www.pb.org/pbdocs/spiritual_body.html
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. – 1Cor 15:44
Unfortunately, there are some who misuse this scripture in argument against a bodily resurrection, and some will say that, even if there is a bodily resurrection, this scripture does not refer to it. These will claim that spiritual body means the soul or spirit and that it does not refer to the material body. Such a conclusion is at variance with the entire tenor of the Bible and with the very context in which this scripture is found. Observe that:
1) While it is a spiritual body, it is nonetheless a body. Hence, the scripture does not deny the resurrection of the body; rather, it affirms the resurrection of the body in a modified form.
2) The resurrected body is a modified form of the body that was sown or buried (vss 37 & 55), but the spiritual man is not sown. When man dies, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, (Eccl 12:7). Accordingly, Isaiah said it was that which dwells in the dust that shall rise in the resurrection: Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead, (Isa 26:19).
3) It is in error to assume that spiritual can only imply “immaterial.” This can be seen from:
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1Cor 10:1-4
Here it is understood that in spiritual rock and spiritual drink there is an intended modification of the idea of the material rock and material drink, but it is not the intent to eliminate the material character of either the rock or drink.
The same idea can be seen in Paul's own explanation of the spiritual body:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. – 1Cor 15:45-49
Hence, the second Adam, who is the returning Christ, or the Lord from Heaven, who will quicken the dead at His appearing, is called a quickening spirit, yet in referring to Him as a spirit, Paul does not imply that He is without a material body. Instead, the obvious intent is to explain His meaning of spiritual body by illustrating it with the resurrected body of Christ. This is an expected explanation to anyone believing in a bodily resurrection because:
4) The resurrected body of Christ is the prototype for all of those who will resurrected in Him. This is implied in the context, because Paul said, And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. That is, whereas the first Adam was the prototype of the present body, the Second Adam is the prototype of the spiritual body. This principle is very clearly taught elsewhere in the Bible (vss 12-17; Rom 8:29; Philip 3:21; 1Jn 3:2). But there is no doubt that Christ was raised in a material body of flesh and bones (Lk 24:39-43).
5) The resurrected body is a modified form of the body that dies, and it must die before it can be resurrected, because Paul says, Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die, (vs 36). This cannot refer to the spiritual man, because the spiritual man does not die. Accordingly, the body that is raised to immortality and incorruption is a modification of the body that had been sown in mortality and corruption (vss 42 & 53).
6) In the preceding verses, Paul considers various kinds of bodies and flesh. The comparisons and contrasts made here clarify his meaning when he later speaks of a spiritual body. He says,
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. – 1Cor 15:36-41
As Paul considers the diversity in various forms of bodies and flesh, he never considers anything other than material entities. This shows that a material entity is under consideration when he later speaks of a spiritual body.
7) From the previous quote it can be seen that the spiritual body is “given” (i.e. God giveth it a body…) in the resurrection itself, so to affirm that spiritual body simply means the soul or spirit is to affirm that one does not have soul or spirit until the resurrection, or that the soul or spirit are modified in the resurrection. The scriptures will support neither idea. The obvious meaning is that God will give a modified material body in the resurrection.
8) The bodies of the resurrected will surely be identical in composition to the glorified bodies of those who will be yet alive when Christ returns, but it is obviously true that the latter will possess a modified form of the present body. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put immortality, (vss 51-53). Thus, the bodies of those who are alive when Christ returns are not done away, but are changed from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortal to immortality.
9) The denial of a bodily resurrection places one at odds with plain teachings of Paul elsewhere in the Bible. For example, consider:
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. – Rom 8:10,11
This scripture plainly distinguishes the spiritual and fleshly being of man, and it clearly applies the resurrection to the latter.
10) The denial of a bodily resurrection places one at odds with the plain teachings of other scriptural writers. These include:
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. – Job 19:25-27
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. – Isa 26:19
And many of them that sleep in the
dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. – Dan 12:2When Paul speaks of a spiritual body, he means a material yet incorruptible and immortal body adapted to the heavenly clime, and this is in contrast to the natural body, which refers to the corruptible and mortal body that is adapted to the earthly clime.
Shimmer and David,
We must also remember that our natural body being perishable is damaged by the passage of time. Jesus being in a imperishable body would be in the optimal physical shape after his resurrection. That could render him hard to recognize to those used to seeing and hearing him in his natural body. It could be that God for his own reasons effected the situation so Jesus was not recognized by the physical senses but rather by the spiritual sense.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2010,11:08) Shimmer and David, We must also remember that our natural body being perishable is damaged by the passage of time. Jesus being in a imperishable body would be in the optimal physical shape after his resurrection. That could render him hard to recognize to those used to seeing and hearing him in his natural body. It could be that God for his own reasons effected the situation so Jesus was not recognized by the physical senses but rather by the spiritual sense.
Thats true Kerwin. His body though his own would have been different, as you said, in optimal physical shape.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2010,11:14) Shimmer, Isaiah 26:19 sounds interesting. Have you looked into it?
Kerwin,“Your dead shall live. My dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth will cast forth the dead”.
That's good, and see, that is talking of a resurrection of bodies, that is a good verse.
Quote (Baker @ Dec. 20 2010,13:32) Mike! The Bible is not always written in chronological order. When I read John 17:5 it says that He wants the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was. Now ask yourself, is that what Jesus asked his Father before his resurrection or after His resurrection? I say AFTER.
Hi Irene,I guess I never thought of the individual books themselves being out of chronological order. But, as I don't exactly know for a fact that they are not, who am I to say they are?
When I read that in the past, I just always assumed that Jesus had at that point accomplished the work his God gave him to do, and that the rest was more a matter of stuff he had to endure than “work he had to do”. But maybe you're right – I don't know, so I won't dare to refute your understanding of it.
peace and love,
mike
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