Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Hi Kerwin,

Does scripture say the “the fool states in his heart” that Jesus became a “life giving spirit”?

Does it say “the fool states in their heart” that just as there are earthly bodies for those of the earth, there are spiritual heavenly bodies for those of heaven?

I see your point Kerwin. But I think Irene, Pierre and I are taking the WHOLE of scriptures into account on this issue. Some things in scripture are just easy because they're so clearly stated.

Can you answer one question? Who do you think would possess a “spiritual body” if not a spirit?

peace and love,
mike

December 19, 2010 at 4:00 am#229284

Participant

Mike, you didn't even read what St Justyn said so what you say and what you have others believe is your own.

You three…four..five maybe can all stand together on this. I stand on the side of truth as God is showing me.

Since yesterday. I prayed that I be led into all truth and I was and am being led……..so if we are both believing different thing's and I feel strangely moved to defend something and I don't know why……….if I then find agreement with the Early Church Fathers, then that says something to me, and I would rather trust in that than I would of the likes of man today. Thanks.

December 19, 2010 at 4:10 am#229286

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-50.htm

Participant

Even Bible commentaries seem to agree.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Now this I say, brethren,…. Upon the whole, I assert this, and observe it to you, out of a truly Christian respect for you, as brethren in the Lord, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: this shows the necessity there is of a difference between the body that now is, and that which shall be, which the apostle has so largely insisted on, and so clearly proved and explained, in the preceding verses; because the body, as it now is, is not capable of possessing the heavenly glory; was it to be introduced into heaven, in the condition it is now, it would break in pieces, and crumble into dust; it would not be able to bear the glory of that state and place:

By flesh and blood is meant, not human nature as to the substance of it, or as consisting of flesh and blood, for that can and does inherit the kingdom of God; witness the human nature, or body of Christ, the bodies of the saints that rose after his resurrection, and those of Enoch and Elijah, who were translated body and soul to heaven; so that this passage makes nothing for those that deny the resurrection of the same body, and plead for a new and an aerial one: but the human nature, or body, so and so qualified, is here meant; either as corrupted with sin, for without holiness and righteousness no man shall see the Lord, or enter into and possess the kingdom of heaven; or flesh and blood, or an human body, as it is now supported in this animal life, with meat and drink, &c. and as it is frail and mortal, and subject to death, in which sense the phrase is used in Scripture; see Matthew 16:17 and often by the Jews; so Abraham is represented by them as saying (i), “I am , “flesh and blood”, tomorrow I shall depart out of the world, or die:'' it would be endless to give the many instances that might be produced of this use of the phrase with them, and in which sense it is to be taken here:

And the meaning is, that saints in their frail mortal bodies, such as they now are, are not capable of enjoying the heavenly glory; which is called “the kingdom”, because of its riches, glory, grandeur, and magnificence; and the kingdom “of God”, because it is of his preparing and giving; and what he calls his people to, and makes them meet for, and in which they will reign with him for evermore: heirs of it they may be, and are now whilst in this frail and mortal state; but inherit, possess, and enjoy it, they cannot, as not without holiness of soul, so not without immortality of body; and therefore it is necessary that the body should rise different in qualities from, though the same in substance with, the present body; that it should rise incorruptible, glorious, powerful, and spiritual; that it may be fitted for, and be able to bear the exceeding weight of glory in the other world: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption: by corruption is not so much meant sin, or the corruption of nature, or man as corrupted by sin, though it is true of such an one, that he does not, and cannot inherit incorruption; the incorruptible crown, the crown of glory that fadeth not away, the incorruptible inheritance, reserved in the heavens, those riches which moth and rust corrupt not; but the body, as it is generated in corruption, is supported by corruptible things, and is subject to corruption and worms; in such a situation it is unfit for, and incapable of inheriting eternal glory; it must be different from what it is; it must put on immortality, and be clothed with incorruption: the word inherit in both clauses shows, that the heavenly glory is an inheritance, and belongs to children only; is their heavenly Father's bequest unto them; is not bought or acquired by anything of theirs; and is what they enter into and upon, in virtue and consequence of the death of the testator, Christ.

Geneva Study Bible

{28} Now this I say, brethren, that {c} flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(28) The conclusion: we cannot be partakers of the glory of God unless we put off all that gross and filthy nature of our bodies subject to corruption, that the same body may be adorned with incorruptible glory.

Â Flesh and blood are taken here for a living body, which cannot attain to incorruption, unless it puts off corruption.

December 19, 2010 at 4:26 am#229288

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,14:00)

Okay Shimmer.

Like I said before, you go ahead and believe in whatever MEN from whatever century you want to. I'll continue to believe in the Word of God.

peace and love to you,
mike

December 19, 2010 at 4:35 am#229291

Blocked

Shimmer,

These MEN you are quoting are using circular arguments. They are saying that since we KNOW Jesus is still a flesh and blood man, then the “flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom” scripture MUST be saying something else.

But WHY are they “KNOWING” that Jesus is still flesh? What scripture are they finding that in?

It seems odd to me that if man pointed a telescope at the exact right part of heaven that he wouldn't be able to see God or any of the angels, but he could possibly see the flesh body of Jesus seemingly hovering in mid-air. Actually “odd” isn't the right word. It actually seems RIDICULOUS that our Lord and King is the ONLY being in heaven that we could see with the right telescope aimed at the right place.

Yes, yes, I know. Dimensions, right?

peace and love,
mike

December 19, 2010 at 9:28 am#229299

kerwin

Participant

Mike Boll,

I just wanted to make the point that to correctly interpret scripture we need to take in the whole context of the bible.

December 19, 2010 at 10:43 am#229301

Participant

Mike and Irene,

I will also add that I had prayed and asked today what it meant by 'flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven' and the word 'corrupt' (flesh and blood) was given to me. Then I looked up the commentaries which also said the word corrupt. So, it seems what I have been shown regarding the risen flesh of Christ is also backed up not only by commentaries but also the early church of 130AD.

Is it such an important thing to believe this ? Well to me it must be otherwise why do I feel so driven to support it ?

What does it say…….. “If thou may confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and may believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved“

You don't believe Jesus is risen from the dead in his flesh and bone body which he lives in still right now. You doubt by saying “NO he was/is Spirit only and has not flesh and bone.

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling block”

“If you have faith the size of a mustard seed”

“If thou believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved”

By faith we are saved.

So maybe that is why it is such a big deal.

December 19, 2010 at 11:35 am#229303

Participant

Pray about it.

December 19, 2010 at 1:17 pm#229304

Participant

Kerwin,

That is so funny…''Scritures says 'there is no God' and then qualifies it with 'the fool has said'…''

Ha ha ha ….that is so backwards, deceitful, a complete Satanic post.

I see your desire for 'Demonic Appetising' has led you to taste deceit … Kerwin, beware that a sip doesn't lead to a gulp. But at least just remember…don't swallow…

Just for clarity, the quote is actually, ''The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God'…''

December 19, 2010 at 1:37 pm#229305

Participant

Shimmer,

When did JustAskin say he followed what the JW's say.

You even insist that I am following what they say as opposed to what Ssripture says.

Shimmer, in my house, i have a Bible, and Bibles…i do have JW literature, but I also have Trinitarian literature, Mormon literature, Hindu literature…..so, does that mean i am a JWTriniMormaHindi believer?

Where is your qualification for my following JW's. If I speak as they do…is the me following them…or is it just our paths crossed at that point concerning a specific Scriptural matter?

Moreover, is the phrase, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven' not clear enough?

Where is there a distinction given between 'Corruptible' and 'Incorrutible' flesh?

Where is the verse that states that 'Incurruptible flesh will inherit the kingdom of God'?

Flesh of any kind….cannot enter Heaven.
Heaven is the realm of the Spirits, Spirits are 'immaterial'…
Earth is the realm of Flesh….Flesh is Material…
Material matter cannot enter Heaven…that is impossible…

December 19, 2010 at 1:44 pm#229306

Participant

Mike,

You wish there were more like you and Irene and Terra…so you can continue to say:

1) Spiritual body = Spirit body

2) Celestial = Heaven

3) Terrestial = of the Sky…glowing bodies in Galactic Space…Sun, Moon, Stars

Mike, you want more persons like yourselves to help you re-enforce your deception?

Then I say, God is forever wise….

December 19, 2010 at 2:40 pm#229309

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 19 2010,23:37)

Shimmer,

When did JustAskin say he followed what the JW's say.

You even insist that I am following what they say as opposed to what Ssripture says.

Where is your qualification for my following JW's. If I speak as they do…is the me following them…or is it just our paths crossed at that point concerning a specific Scriptural matter?

Moreover, is the phrase, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven' not clear enough?

Where is there a distinction given between 'Corruptible' and 'Incorrutible' flesh?

Where is the verse that states that 'Incurruptible flesh will inherit the kingdom of God'?

You got this one right, JA.

Georg

December 19, 2010 at 2:58 pm#229311

Participant

Thank you, George.

December 19, 2010 at 3:02 pm#229313

Participant

To all

Why are “spirit beings” called “spirit beings”?

What does the word “spirit” imply? in the simplest term it means, “INVISIBLE”.

So how do you describe something you cant even see?

We all have a brain, we know what a brain looks like from pictures taken from dead people; all of us also have a mind, Paul calls it a spirit; so who wants to go ahead and tell us what a mind/spirit looks like? No body can, Paul called it a spirit because it too is invisible.
It is not something we are born with, it is what we develop us we grow up. With the increase of knowledge comes understanding, comes making decisions, comes making choices. In other words, we are making use of information stored up in our brain; animals can't do that, that is the difference.
That “IS” what our “mind”, or call it a “spirit” if you will, is.

Georg

December 19, 2010 at 3:05 pm#229314

terraricca

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 20 2010,06:44)

Mike,

You wish there were more like you and Irene and Terra…so you can continue to say:

1) Spiritual body = Spirit body

2) Celestial = Heaven

3) Terrestial = of the Sky…glowing bodies in Galactic Space…Sun, Moon, Stars

Mike, you want more persons like yourselves to help you re-enforce your deception?

Then I say, God is forever wise….

we only discuss the spiritual bodies ;now body is to my understanding a limit of what ever it is;

human body would stop were my flesh outer skin stopped.

and so it is with the spiritual body;but i do not know the size of those spiritual bodies.or there structure,beside what scriptures says,spirits body s

my ignorance is equal to the knowledge of scriptures

Pierre

December 19, 2010 at 3:53 pm#229315

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 20 2010,00:40)

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 19 2010,23:37)

Shimmer,

When did JustAskin say he followed what the JW's say.

You even insist that I am following what they say as opposed to what Ssripture says.

Where is your qualification for my following JW's. If I speak as they do…is the me following them…or is it just our paths crossed at that point concerning a specific Scriptural matter?

Moreover, is the phrase, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven' not clear enough?

Where is there a distinction given between 'Corruptible' and 'Incorrutible' flesh?

Where is the verse that states that 'Incurruptible flesh will inherit the kingdom of God'?

You got this one right, JA.

Georg

I agree with Georg. JA, you got this post 100% correct. You have stated about the JW's exactly what I told Shimmer. It's like since I don't believe in the trinity and the JW's don't believe in the trinity, I'm all of a sudden “following what the JW's teach”. I follow scripture, and if the JW's are interpreting scripture the same way as I am, then it's a case of us both following scripture, not a case of them following me or me following them. The same applies to the early church fathers that Kathi and Shimmer enjoy reading. I have no problem with any of them on any matter where they teach what the scriptures teach. It's only when and where they teach in opposition to the scriptures that I turn away from them. And in this particular case, we have scripture saying flesh cannot enter heaven, and we have early church fathers teaching in opposition to this scriptural fact.

And their teaching is circular. They assume that since Jesus IS still flesh, then the scripture must mean something else. But there is no scripture that says Jesus is still flesh. Instead, scripture says in three places that Jesus is now a spirit.

And JA, you have stated the plain obvious fact of scripture that flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom.

This is what I've been arguing the whole time. Where have you been?

1. Jesus IS in the Kingdom of God at God's right hand right now.

2. Flesh cannot enter there.

3. Jesus is no longer flesh.

1+2=3. Up to here JA, you and I apparently agree.

But JA, you miss the whole point of 1 Cor 15. Paul is teaching that God gives a body to EVERYTHING as He pleases. Those of earth have earthly bodies and those of heaven have SPIRITUAL bodies. You are stuck because you don't think a spiritual body has to do with the body of a spirit. But “spiritual” only means “pertaining to” or “of” SPIRIT.
You say the NETNotes offers me no help on the matter or I would have used it. Well, here's what they say the definition of “spiritual”, or “pneumatikos” is:

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

So a “spiritual body” is a body that BELONGS TO A SPIRIT. Just like Pierre, Irene and I have been saying all along.

And I echo what Pierre just posted:

Quote

we only discuss the spiritual bodies ;now body is to my understanding a limit of what ever it is;

human body would stop were my flesh outer skin stopped.

and so it is with the spiritual body;but i do not know the size of those spiritual bodies.or there structure,beside what scriptures says,

We don't know the make up of a spiritual body. We don't know the size or texture of even if that body would look more like fog or a rainbow to us. We only know that spirits do have bodies of some sort. They are called in scripture: “SPIRITUAL BODIES”. And scripture says that THOSE OF HEAVEN have them.

peace and love,
mike

December 19, 2010 at 4:08 pm#229316

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 19 2010,23:37)

Shimmer,

When did JustAskin say he followed what the JW's say.

You even insist that I am following what they say as opposed to what Ssripture says.

Where is your qualification for my following JW's. If I speak as they do…is the me following them…or is it just our paths crossed at that point concerning a specific Scriptural matter?

Moreover, is the phrase, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven' not clear enough?

Where is there a distinction given between 'Corruptible' and 'Incorrutible' flesh?

Where is the verse that states that 'Incurruptible flesh will inherit the kingdom of God'?

JA I don't agree with you on a lot, but with this I do. Good post, and Shimmer you are wrong. Why do you listen to what they believed in AD 135, rather then going what the Bible says??

Peace and love Irene

December 19, 2010 at 4:27 pm#229318

Blocked

To Shimmer and Gene,

Philippians 3 NIV
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

First, this scripture PROVES that Jesus is not a human being made of flesh anymore. If he was, our bodies would already be like “his glorious body”.

Second, this scripture also seems to shed some light on the fact that bodies CAN BE TRANSFORMED. So Jesus could have been raised from death in the flesh, and then had his body TRANSFORMED into the glorious, heavenly, spiritual body he now has as a SPIRIT.

peace and love,
mike

December 19, 2010 at 4:51 pm#229319