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Pierre,
I appreciate you explaining why you choose to believe that the Witch of Endor summoned a demon instead of the ghost, i.e. soul of Samuel. I disagree with your argument but this is not the correct thread to have such a debate.
What I believe is important to this thread is that you believes in Sheol, aka Hade, The Grave, and Hell, when the vast majority of souls reside until Judgment Day. I am unsure since you expressed the belief that Samuel’s soul ascended to heaven immediately after his death.
I also hope you understand that a ghost is the soul of a person whose body has perished and who has not been resurrected. This is why ghosts, aka souls, shades, exist in Hades until the Day of Judgment when God will judge the quick and the dead.
A soul, which is sometimes called a spirit, cannot eat or be touched as it has no physical existence. It does have a wispy looking body when it is visible. If the soul is that of a person who has died but not been resurrected then it is known as a ghost. It could be a soul that is merely temporarily out of body.
The importance of this is that the disciples were afraid of ghosts according to the accounts of Jesus walking on water in several gospels. In Matthew and Mark the Common Greek word translated to ghost is a variation of phantasmal and it is not used at any other time. It was to address this fear that Jesus allowed himself to be touched and ate food.
Pierre,
The body of Jesus did look the same as it did before he perished but as I said earlier it is completely different in how it works as it is imperishable even though bearing wounds that would kill a natural body.
In Revelations the description of Jesus’ body is symbolical. The sword of his mouth for instance is the word of God he speaks and not a literal sword.
I do know that Jesus was transfigured in his natural body, how much more would he be in the supernatural, aka spiritual, body God gave him he sprouted from his grave. It was that body that the Eleven saw him ascend to heaven in and he will descend in the same way when he comes again according to Scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2010,00:12) Pierre, I appreciate you explaining why you choose to believe that the Witch of Endor summoned a demon instead of the ghost, i.e. soul of Samuel. I disagree with your argument but this is not the correct thread to have such a debate.
What I believe is important to this thread is that you believes in Sheol, aka Hade, The Grave, and Hell, when the vast majority of souls reside until Judgment Day. I am unsure since you expressed the belief that Samuel’s soul ascended to heaven immediately after his death.
I also hope you understand that a ghost is the soul of a person whose body has perished and who has not been resurrected. This is why ghosts, aka souls, shades, exist in Hades until the Day of Judgment when God will judge the quick and the dead.
A soul, which is sometimes called a spirit, cannot eat or be touched as it has no physical existence. It does have a wispy looking body when it is visible. If the soul is that of a person who has died but not been resurrected then it is known as a ghost. It could be a soul that is merely temporarily out of body.
The importance of this is that the disciples were afraid of ghosts according to the accounts of Jesus walking on water in several gospels. In Matthew and Mark the Common Greek word translated to ghost is a variation of phantasmal and it is not used at any other time. It was to address this fear that Jesus allowed himself to be touched and ate food.
krewinyour explanation is quite good ,but from all the understanding I have ghosts are to me not humans even if they shape like one they are demon spirits,demon spirits are the spirits of the offspring of angels and men;
now to me Sheol,Hades,and hell are the same thing,
as for Samuel ascended to heaven this was after Christ dead.
and he was not the only one.
i do not remember saying that it was after he died.Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2010,00:14) Pierre, The body of Jesus did look the same as it did before he perished but as I said earlier it is completely different in how it works as it is imperishable even though bearing wounds that would kill a natural body.
In Revelations the description of Jesus’ body is symbolical. The sword of his mouth for instance is the word of God he speaks and not a literal sword.
I do know that Jesus was transfigured in his natural body, how much more would he be in the supernatural, aka spiritual, body God gave him he sprouted from his grave. It was that body that the Eleven saw him ascend to heaven in and he will descend in the same way when he comes again according to Scripture.
kerwinthe body of Christ what he had after the resurection was temporary,so that his disciples could see him,
first the not recognise them right after his resurrection,right.
secondly on the road to Emmaus ;Lk 24:16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
Lk 24:17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast.
Lk 24:18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?”and Jn 21:4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
Jn 21:5 He called out to them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?”
“No,” they answered.
Jn 21:6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
Jn 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.
Jn 21:8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
Jn 21:9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.
Jn 21:10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.”
Jn 21:11 Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.
Jn 21:12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?”there again he had an other body ,
when men stopped seeing Christ it is because he is change into a spiritual body,because Christ is like his father a spirit.
yes in revelation is body is an allegory but it shows his qualities no men can possess
kerwin
and one more scripture that shows that Christ body in heaven is not the same than on earth;it is called glory or splender,
Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2010,19:10) Shimmer, You confuse me as you words seem to conflict with one another. Perhaps that is because there is a battle with in you. First you seem to state all doctrines are the same so we should not disagree and then you speak of teaching that are lies and deceptions as well as one that is true. The last I agree with but the former I do not. I do agree that as much as possible we should strive to remain at peace with one another.
At the same time we are duty bound in love to rebuke our neighbor less we become an accessory after the fact in their sin. Some of us are still subject to sin and so we should in mercy choose to suffer that sin while striving to remove the chains of our brother with wisdom and gentleness. We should always stick to the true doctrine of Christ and apply it to our own lives.
Kerwin, the battle that I have yes I battle. I see God working in people and I hear their stories and I feel moved by them. They go to church. I want to go too. I want to feel the togetherness of people who have overcome. I want to be with them.
The other part of me seeks truth from false teachings.
That is the battle. And I think I know what I need to choose.
Kerwin,
Remain as a child.Please don't become adult.
As long as you remain a child you will be forgiven.
Gene,
I note how you always need to add to, and, deny what Scriptures says in order to make your offering of your belief.
Scriptures says that flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, yet you say that Jesus is, even now, in the flesh….in Heaven.
You, like Mikeboll, say no Scriptures support is posted…but ignore those Scriptures posted. For instance, I posted 1 Corinth 10: 4, where it is written that Christ was the Spiritual Rock that the people drank from in the wilderness.
Because you have already set your mind to disbelieve anything that claims to be showing pre-Jesus that you will ALWAYS deny ANYTHING that is shown to you.
Gene, this is called 'FEAR'…why bother to show a Trinitarian the truth if he is in 'FEAR'…no matter what you show him, he will fearfully refute…why? Because if he dare believe…what is he to do next…he cannot talk to his friends anymore, he cannot return to his Church, he cannot read all those indoctrinating literature he purchased at high cost, indeed he has to destroy them…then he is alone……Gene, the only thing I agree with you about concerning the coming by birth of Jesus, is that Jesus 'is come' in the flesh.
It is clear by Scriptures that Jesus 'is come' as Man, born from a human mother (But a Spiritual Father).
What you ignore, are all the things Mikeboll remonstrated with you about….e.g. That Jesus 'Emptied himself' of his divinity…this, you harshly spew out as someone claiming 'Morphing' (i see the glee in your mind as you use the word…'gotcha'. I found a 'funny' word). Gene, only YOU, say 'Morphed'…Morphing means changing the shape of a thing in situ… Pre-Jesus didn't 'Morph' into a human being…
Gene, pre-Jesus was an Angel, as are ALL Spirits in Heaven, except God Almighty.
Part of what the problem is, is that you are arguing with a number of different beliefs, So, you mingle all these into one…typical, of the mass majority of debators….Gene, do you know how many times I have agreed with something you have said (Only specific parts of your larger post) but I could not say anything because you made it a claim against ALL PreExistent believers, i.e. Against JustAskin, inclusive of whom you really WANT to target…you miss the opportunity to make a friend, my friend!
'Emptying himself', means putting off the power and majesty of his Angelic form, being a senior Son of God, even as Michael is “…ONE… OF THE CHIEF PRINCES” (Who are the others, and which one is THE Chief Prince?)
Further, God said he has 'hidden his Servant in the palm of his hand'.
Gene, this means that 'preJesus' was carrying out the works of God while hidden from view, metaphorically speaking, from the sight of man…why? Because God did not want him to be taken for 'a God' and become a subject of Worship.
Gene, can you see that this is a realistic thing to do…and God is wise!So, after putting off his divinity, his Spirit was placed into the body of a human baby…hence how he came to be such a surprise to the temple leaders who said, 'How is it that you, a child, knows so much of Scriptures, even more than us, and we are 'over fifty years old'?'
Well, Jesus couldn't just say, hey, although you see me in the fleshly body of a child, I am in fact…before Abraham…'. He would have been laughed out of the temple…worse, they would have killed him for blasphemy before he even started his ministry…but he was patient, meek, giving and forgiving, a true messenger, an embassador of his Father and God…speaking and acting in the manner of his King Who SENT HIM.Gene, you cannot 'SEND' some one who doest exist.
Gene, when you see evidence against your thought…what do you feel inside you…?
Let me guess: Anger, fright, fear, worry, anxiety…You then say to yourself…'argghh…how can I counter Scriptures….let me pray….dear fleshly jesus, please show me how to deceive others by refuting what is written in the book of truth…please increase my powers of deceit…' (note that 'jesus' is lowercase 'j')
Gene, this 'superAngel' who 'morphed' himself….these two terms are completely your own 'Gene-ome'… No one ever claimed preJesus was a 'SuperAngel. No one ever claimed that preJesus 'Morphed'.
You make up these claims and then shout constantly that they are not true….ha ha…there is delusion mixed with deception, Gene style…And who now can believe anything written by Mikeboll64, by Irene or by Terrarica, seeing that their MASSIVE ERROR concerning what is so obvious was rubberstamped by all three, not one being able to see the truth, even as they despararetly strived to reInvent everyday words such as 'Celestial' and 'Terrestial', and also misconstruing and misapplying terms such 'Spiritual body' and 'Spirit Body'(A nonExistent term)
Albeit…that we should not get caught out by simply denying everything an opposer says immediately it is said ,..but pick out the truth, expouse it, but then downtread the deceptive parts…
Remember that truth can be hidden in a lie, but a lie cannot hide in truth.
Satan told Eve that if she eat the fruit she would not die [Immediately]. So she ate and did not die [immediately], so when she did not die, she presented (¿) herself to her husband saying, 'see here is the fruit God told us not to eat for we should surely die, but i am still here', so Adam also ate… But it was later revealed that it was 'Mankind' who would die…in the fullness of time…through the indwelling of sin brought about by disobedience.In other words…it wasn't the fruit that caused sin to enter man…through Adam, not Eve…but because of the disobedience to God's command.
JA………..Do you realize at all that you are doing the very same thing you are accusing others of. You create your own renditions of stories that have no scriptural supports , I can understand how you would think the scripture that says ” CHRIST WAS THE (ROCK) THAT FOLLOWED THE CHILDREN OF ISREAL IN THE WILDERNESS. Many believe that was referring to Jesus, However do you see the Word JESUS there, NO you don't , And I have produced many scriptures and can again where GOD it is said is the ONLY TRUE ROCK and where even Jesus called Him the ROCK , if you need a review i can give it to you. Simple, “UPON (THIS) ROCK I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH” , now what ROCK exactly WAS that JA, was it not GOD, who can get into a persons head and reveal the truth as he did Jesus and Peter. But wait there is more, this also disproves it was Jesus that was there in the wilderness, that is The very words Paul used does not apply to the person of Jesus himself (CHRISTOS) but means the anointing of GOD or Messiah same thing, This anointing was also on many at the time of Israels existence in the wilderness, If you doubt that i can and will produce those many scriptures if you don't know them already. Paul was every selective of his wording and was absolutely accurate. In nearly all cases where the wording goes Jesus Christ is written (it is in Greek written Jesus (the Christ) or clearer (for you), Jesus the anointed one. JA it was that (ANOINTING) that was on all of GOD chosen Leaders that was following them around in the wilderness, like i said before it does not take a brain scientist to understand that. But evidently you seem to lack the ability to put it together, so you scream out others are in error. IMO
Peace and love…………………………………..gene
Preexistences and trinitarians both have a history of past convections to those false teaching they espouse as you do also. So at every chance you force the text to say what in fact it does not really say or in you case you come up with the story of your angel things like Lucifer being Satan or an angel being turned into a human person of flesh and blood. O an by the way Jeremiah was for know before he ever existed and so was Cyrus the King so don't give us this that GOD can not foreknow a person before they ever come into existence.
Ja you do spinn a good yarn but where are the scripture to support them , as Kerwin has said.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 18 2010,01:46) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,01:01) Jesus Christ “is” come in the flesh. The “is” there shows it was not something He did only in the resurrection of His body, for He continues to live on in Heaven in that same glorified flesh and bone body today – up in Heaven, at the right hand of God, as we are repeatedly told in the New Testament. Jesus Christ “is” in glorified flesh today. Jesus Chris is come in the flesh! Anyone who says that Jesus is a spirit “is not of God,” but has been led into heresy by “that spirit of antichrist.” Which leads us to the last point.
Shimmer…………..This i totally agree with that, anyone who denies Jesus as coming in the Flesh into existence and still being a flesh human being is in error , and that is indeed the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist John was talking about. IMOpeace and love too you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Gene,It's interesting to note that while the original KJV says, “IS come in the flesh”, the NKJV follows suit with most other translations and says, “HAS come in the flesh”.
The Greek word “erchomai”, which means “come” is written in the “perfect tense”. This is what it means:
5778 Tense – Perfect The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
It seems that the NKJV, along with virtually every other translation has it right Gene. The scripture means that Jesus “HAS come in the flesh”. It says nothing about Jesus still being flesh. And anyone who thinks that Jesus is still in the flesh is ignoring the scriptural fact that Jesus is now a spirit with a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:44-45, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18) Those people also have to ignore the fact that flesh CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:50)
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,11:55) And it's actually a really important thing. It seems that most here agree with the JW meaning of this that Jesus is spirit only. Well I don't. And it's something that I feel I have to defend for some reason.
Hi Shimmer,What do the JW's have to do with this? Are you trying to slant other people's beliefs by asserting to believe Jesus is now a spirit associates us with the “devil worshipping cult” of the Jehovah's Witnesses?
I STRONGLY believe that the JW's are the closest thing to true Christianity today. I'm not on board with all of their interpretations of scripture, but almost all.
It is not a “JW meaning” Shimmer, but the words of the scriptures. Scriptures say that Jesus is now a SPIRIT – believe them or not.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 18 2010,12:13) They assume he did a body switch, but produce no scripture to prove it,
Hi Gene,I also assume that Jesus went to the bathroom as a human being, but cannot produce any scriptures to “prove it”.
The fact is that Jesus was clearly NOT a spirit when he was raised from the dead. And the fact is that Jesus clearly IS a spirit now. So you do the math.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2010,15:11) Just Askin, Where is the scripture to support your beliefs. From what I see there is nothing but the speculation of man based on their imagination. Pierre at least explained his beliefs. You instead speak your own word and do not attempt to support it with scripture. I am here to learn from God and not you or to share what I have come to believe and test it. If you believe something then show in scripture why you believe that. If you cannot then either you are not equipped to teach and/or it is doubtful what you say comes from God.
So please strive to learn from God and support what your life and doctrine according to the word of God. So we discuss what scripture means and perhaps therefore grow closer to God. Thank you!
Save your breath Kerwin,I've been there and done that. It doesn't work. JA holds his own imagination in a higher regard than he holds the scriptures.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,12:41)
To all,Jesus was risen in the flesh. He remains in the flesh and He will return in the flesh.
But scripture says he is now a spirit, Shimmer. Scripture says flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,12:41)
“'If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner rooms,' don't believe it. For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man”.
Who will Jesus return with Shimmer? Angels, right? And we will also be able to see them at that time, right? And since angels are spirits, and Jesus is a spirit, I assume that at the time of Jesus's second coming, humans will be “given eyes” to see spirit beings, just like they've many times been “given eyes” to see them throughout scripture.mike
MIke…………Because scripture say He makes his Angle's Spirits do not mean they are spirits. Just as when GOD gives us His Holy Spirit does not make us Holy Spirit BODIES. You and most heres biggest Problem is you do not understand what Spirit is , it is not a BODY of any kind it is what is (IN) a Body. What do you think it means when it say to (TRY) the Spirits to see if they are of GOD , do you think that means to try spirit bodies to see if they are of GOD? Spirit is not a body it is what is (IN) a Body for the hundredth time. Are you so dense you cant understand that Mike. A bod is no nor can ever be a SPIRIT of ANY KIND now or in the future no such thing exist as a “BODY SPIRIT” OR A “SPIRIT BODY”> Mike you are a perfect example of a deluded mind that has come to believe the LIE, and the sad Part is you and other truly believe it, THE LIE but not on your own but because GOD has caused you to just as it says , GOD WILL SEND TO THEM A DELUDING SPIRIT ( intellect) WHY? IN ORDER FOR THEM TO BELIEVE (THE LIE) So if GOD has deluded you there is not sense of trying to change you because that is impossible to do.
But to the rest who truly LOVE the TRUTH you can easily see that there is no such thing as a SPIRIT “BODY”, NOR was Jesus a Preexisting GOD or demigod or super Angel either. This is how it is easily understood by those who know the truth from those who believe the LIES fostered by the decieved trinitarians and preexistences, it was by GOD sending them a deluding Spirit (intellect). Sad part is MIKE I know you as well as Irene and Trericca, truly believe what you are saying. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Gene,
Once again you accuse me of not showing you Scriptures to support my claim…by ignoring the Scripture I give you to support my claim….
I gave you 1 Corinth 10:4 and explained to you.
But you see the truth and run from it by quoting a different verse… Why Gene, Why?
1 Corinth 10:4 Says that the Spiritual Rock that they drank from was Christ.
So, having seen irrefutable proof, you squirm away by quoting from an entirely different verse.
Well Gene, keep squirming….
Jesus is Spirit in Heaven but assumes a physical body when he comes into the physical world.
This is the essence of the new creation, the Man with a Spiritual body.Mike and JA and all others…. Justin Martyr who was an early Church Saint wrote this in aprox 130AD and it disagrees with you.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
You probably wont read it though right ?
And if you are wondering who Justin Martyr is……..
Kerwin,
No matter how you put it…you are still an immature minded child chasing demon spirits and eupheumistically calling them 'Ghosts'.
If your professing to be seeking truth is honest then stop pursuing demons in disguise and belittling their extremely dangerous powers by giving them a cute name of 'Ghost'…that is meant to scare little kids, fool people at fake seances at parties, induce fearin people walking through a cemetry at night, or sell house haunting sessions.
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