Do spirits have bodies?

[JustAskin]

To All,

Please please please, can we all try to move brother Kerwin away from pursuing 'Ghosts', 'Aperitions', 'Phantasms', etc.

They have no place in a Spiritually minded discussion.

Please encourage brother Kerwin to pursue it…if he must…in a separate thread (And preferably in another Forum).

[Moderator]

[Baker]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 16 2010,08:24)

Mike, Irene, Terra, Can I speak to God on you behalf for your forgiveness? Just say you were in grave error and have now come to the realisation of your sins in the exposition of certain Scriptural renderings…

Please God show this fellow how wrong he is……He can't even look up celestial bodies…… wow
Peace Irene

[JustAskin]

Mikebull,

I did not run away from 'Michael'. How is it that no matter how one answers you, if it isn't what YOU want to hear, then that person has NOT answered you.

Mike, you are pursuing 'spirits'…you are trying to 'trap the wind'…

Mike, if you 'trap the wind' its power is lost and it is no longer 'wind'. Why?

Its POWER is gone…you are left with air….

Mike, where did the Wind go?
Where did the Power go?
Where did the Spirit go?

And if it has a body…where did the body go?

Mike, what 'body' was Jesus raised up into?
What body was Jesus raised up into that he was seen by over five hundred brethren (1 Cor 15:6)?

Oh, and please, please post the verse where Paul says that Jesus is a Spirit.

Oh, another few questions…
What happened to Jesus' spirit when he died?
So, when Jesus was raised up was his spirit put into a Spirit Body?
So Jesus is a Spirit in a Spirit body? Is that what you are thinking?

But wait…there is no mention of 'Spirit Body'….the wording is 'Spiritual body'…

Spirit body…is never ever mentioned in anything other than 'apocryphal' literature.
If this is not so, please show me where…

Spiritual body…is not 'the body of a Spirit'…. Mike, read it…doesn't make linguist sense…a spirit is called a Spirit because it does not have a body…

The natural flesh and bone body is the sinful body that every man is born into.
The Spiritual flesh and bone body is the glorified sinless body that Jesus was raised up into.

And as Adam was made from the dust, those of the dust are made like him when they are born.
Then, just as Jesus is reborn into a Spiritual body and became a Heavenly Man (…Not Celestial…), so are those who are [to be] reborn after him.

Mike, there is not one single word concerning 'Angels' in the whole of 1 Corinthians 15.

[JustAskin]

Gene,
Your post at the bottom of page 71 is 100% correct.

He has purchased a load of BullChips from Satan and is unable to spend them so is attempting to offload them onto us.

Poor Terrarica and Irene have bought a load of Mike's BullChips.

See how Irene is trying to spend them….Terra..Terra…Terra…

Could Terra…tell Irene what 'Terra' means…
Terratory
Terratorial
Terrestatial

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 16 2010,08:45)

Irene, I am using the wording from 1 Corinthians 15 that speak of the natural body becoming the spiritual body and the perishable becomes the imperishable.  As for those who undergo the second death the whether they have a perishable or imperishable body is irrelevant as God can destroy anything he creates.

Kerwin……….A “PERSON” exists as a loving Soul. that means He has a physical body with SPIRIT (IN) it. Now if GOD wants to destory that Living Soul He simply separates the Spirit from the Body and that person no longer exists, ” THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING FOR IN THE DAY THEY DIE THEIR THOUGHTS (PARISH)”, that is, its no more a soul or person. That is why Jesus said GOD could destory a person in the Grave . Spirit can no die but spirit can be measured and annualized much like water can, If it is clean or unclean spirit same with water.

Spirit is not unique to a single person it is like a giant lake of water, you can have the same spirit i have or JA or Jesus has Spirit does not believing to ONE Person it all comes from one source GOD. But there is HOLY (special Spirit) (intellects) of GOD which we call the Holy spirits, all spirit is some type of awareness or intellect rather good or evil it is all spirit and can be shared by any human being it can reside (IN) Him or Her , that is why we are told to “TRY THE SPIRITS” To see if they are of GOD.

That is testing the intellects , because there is an intellect or spirit of the world and there is the intellect or Spirit of GOD the higher (intellect)> These are the two natures the bible speaks about one is the carnal or lower nature of basic fleshly existence and the other is the higher spiritual nature of spiritual existence. We can have these right now, not just after we are resurected into eternal existing BODIES or have our present bodies transformed into a eternal existing body with the same Holy Spirit that is in us now, Again for the hundredth time a Spirit is not a body it is what is (IN) a Body.

GOD who is Spirit was TRULY (IN) Jesus just as Jesus said he was. If you understand how Spirit is not a body then you can understand that, GOD the FATHER was TRULY (IN) Jesus cohabiting with him (In) his body, it was GOD the Father speaking First Person through Jesus Mouth that said destory this temple and in three days (I) GOD shall raise it UP. Jesus was DEAD He could not raise anything up not even himslef. GOD the FATHER Raise HIM up by activating HIS Body and adding Spirit back into it. This is the same with us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Gene,
But Jesus' body was not destroyed or corrupted in the grave but he rose with the same body with wounds and holes as per Gospels and Acts. Is there a difference between what Paul said and Gospels claimed?

Love and peace
Adam

[JustAskin]

Gene,

Once again, 100% correct.

(Gene, I am agreeing with individual posts, or part of, as you post. I don't agree with everything I've seen you post…but your last two i outlined, were 100% spot on… God has blessed you in this regard)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,18:01)

You seem unable to understand the concept that there is both natural flesh, bone, and blood and spiritual flesh, bone, and blood.

Hmmm…………I don't remember reading about any “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures Kerwin.  I DO however remember reading that flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom.  And I know that many spirits exist in God's Kingdom right now – so they must not have “flesh”.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,18:01)

To you all flesh is the same despite 1 Corinthians 15 stating the opposite.

Paul never says that “spiritual FLESH” is different from “earthly FLESH” Kerwin.  He uses the differences in the types of flesh we know about on earth to explain that spritual BODIES are different than earthly BODIES.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,18:01)

Going with the concept that the resurrected have a spiritual flesh and blood body

Well, don't go with that concept.  It's unscriptural.

It's not necessary for me to answer the rest of your post that was founded on an unscriptural concept.  And also, I would really prefer for you to post my points and then answer them.  Like I do here and always for you.  That way all can see what you actually said and my answer to what you actually said – and visa versa.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 16 2010,10:31)

Poor Terrarica and Irene have bought a load of Mike's BullChips. See how Irene is trying to spend them….Terra..Terra…Terra… Could Terra…tell Irene what 'Terra' means… Terratory Terratorial Terrestatial

JA…………Now that is funny , you got me laughing over that one brother.

But i am not trying to tare Mike down but i honestly believe he and terricca and Irene are wrong on this one JA. Some time when we get older it is hard to admit we are wrong , but if we love the truth more then ourselves it really becomes easer i believe, because after all it should not be about persons but about the truth brother. I know at time it becomes quit frustrating, but Non of us has it all that i am sure of, but iron sharpens Iron also, and we do need to have some salt in us. IMO

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 16 2010,01:35)

Mike……… Why change the wording Where Jesus said (A SPIRIT) does not have flesh and Bone as you see I HAVE. I notices you replaced the word (A) SPIRIT with (THEY) (as representing a Person of some type).

What are you talking about Gene?

Jesus said A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONE AS YOU CAN SEE I HAVE. That says that Jesus at that time was NOT yet a SPIRIT.

But 1 Cor 15:45 says he now is a SPIRIT.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,02:05)

Here he never says resurrected Jesus had flesh and bones rather he says he became life-giving Spirit just like God who is the source of all life. Here is the problem with the writers of N.T. One side Paul says flesh and blood which is animated soul can not inherit Kingdom of God on the other side Gospel writers claim Jesus' body was not corrupted in the grave but he rose with same body and appeared to his disciples.

Hi Adam,

And what about my thoughts on the matter? There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus couldn't have been raised with an earthly body that was then transformed into a spiritual body upon his ascension into heaven, right?

This is what I was trying to show you yesterday in the pre-existent thread. Just because YOU don't quite understand it now does NOT mean the scriptures are faulty.

So Jesus COULD HAVE EASILY been raised with his same earthly body so he could fulfill what he had to on earth fro 40 days. And that body could have easily been transformed into the spiritual body he now has in heaven.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,11:22)

Hi brother Gene, But Jesus' body was not destroyed or corrupted in the grave but he rose with the same body with wounds and holes as per Gospels and Acts. Is there a difference between what Paul said and Gospels claimed? Love and peace Adam

Adam………Remember Jesus never sinned so the curse of death was not on him , “the soul that sinned (IT) shall die or parish” Jesus' soul (body and Spirit) did not sin , But he did die for our sins not his sins. As a Kinsmen redeemer. He being a Man a kinsmen had the right to die for us all because he was SON OF MAN , without sin so he could (LEGALLY) pay our price for sin as a kinsmen redeemer, and he did. But it was not possible for him to remain dead because the curse of death was not on him as all of us and the rest of man kind who has sinned. I don't see the difference in what Paul said Adam and the Gospels claim brother. Maybe i am just missing it. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2010,11:44)

And what about my thoughts on the matter?  There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus couldn't have been raised with an earthly body that was then transformed into a spiritual body upon his ascension into heaven, right?

Mike………> Point is there is no scripture that say he did change into a different body that is just an assumption on you part. Produce scripture that say he changed in a so called (SPIRIT BODY) after his asention or quit preaching it as if he did , that is called forcing the texts to fit you dogmas. IMO

peace and love………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Gene,

Like I told Kerwin, Jesus was obviously not raised from the dead as a spirit. But Jesus IS now a spirit.

So what other option is there Gene? Oh, let me CLARIFY. What other SCRIPTURAL option is there?

mike

[gollamudi]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2010,11:44)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,02:05) Here he never says resurrected Jesus had flesh and bones rather he says he became life-giving Spirit just like God who is the source of all life. Here is the problem with the writers of N.T. One side Paul says flesh and blood which is animated soul can not inherit Kingdom of God on the other side Gospel writers claim Jesus' body was not corrupted in the grave but he rose with same body and appeared to his disciples. Hi Adam, And what about my thoughts on the matter?  There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus couldn't have been raised with an earthly body that was then transformed into a spiritual body upon his ascension into heaven, right? This is what I was trying to show you yesterday in the pre-existent thread.  Just because YOU don't quite understand it now does NOT mean the scriptures are faulty. So Jesus COULD HAVE EASILY been raised with his same earthly body so he could fulfill what he had to on earth fro 40 days.  And that body could have easily been transformed into the spiritual body he now has in heaven. peace and love, mike

Hi brother Mike,
Your solution seems to be enticing but I am sorry to say that it is not supported by even N.T. I only agree with you that Jesus rose as a life-giving Spirit as per 1 Cor 15:45. But Paul certainly claims that Jesus' resurrected body was not same as crucified body with wounds and holes as all of you claim here. Therefore he brings us the analogy of flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God in the context of resurrection. I still feel Gospels had deviated from his view on resurrection and ascertained that Jesus' body was not Ghost or phantom as Gnostics claimed. Remember Gospels were written almost at the end of First century and even in Second century as per historians when the Gnosticism and docetism was prevalent in the church.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

You do not remember reading about spiritual flesh as you seem unable to make connections at times.   Paul for instance speaks both of body and flesh differing between different kinds of creations and yet you do not stop to think why he would mention flesh at all if he was condemning all flesh.  You also seem to forget that scripture attests that angels both eat and are touchable and therefore cannot be immaterial beings.  Since they a touchable and yet cannot be harmed it is clear that they have spiritual flesh of a type.     You also seem not to notice that Paul does not just mention one characteristic of that which cannot enter the kingdom of heaven but at least three.  The three I know of are natural, flesh, imperishable.  Since these characteristics are not independent it stands to reason they go together.  So I put them together.    Most of what I just wrote comes from the description of the mortal and immortal bodies in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.   I just do not choose to select one verse and ignore the rest but rather I seek to understand how they tie together.    How do you tie them together?

You wrote:

Quote

Paul never says that “spiritual FLESH” is different from “earthly FLESH” Kerwin.  He uses the differences in the types of flesh we know about on earth to explain that spiritual BODIES are different than earthly BODIES.

You are arguing that flesh is equivalent to a body.  That contradicts your overall argument as you are stating Paul is saying we rise in a fleshless body.   It would have made less confusing for Paul just to keep using the word body instead of using flesh to mean body if that was his argument.

You have yet to give evidence that anything I have said is unscriptural while I can point out that nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus was raised to his mortal body, especially considering the wounds he bore.   If he was mortal then he would have simply dies once more of those wounds.  Jesus even went to the point of disproving he was a spiritual being that you state he is.  Why would he so deceive his own students if he was in fact a spirit as you claim?

[kerwin]

Just Askin,

Ghosts are much older than the Middle Ages.   The Canaanites practiced necromancy which is prohibited in the Law of Mosses.    The Witch of Endor  was a violator of that law which King Saul enforced even though he hypocritically consulter her to have her call Samuel’s soul, i.e. ghost from the grave.  If you would read scripture you find that nowhere does it even suggest that the summoned spirit of Samuel was a demon deceiving both Saul and the Witch.  It thus seems clear that is heresy from the traditions of man and not from the Word of God.  What we do know is that Samuel’s ghost questioned Saul for both summoning him, 1 Samuel 28:15,  and consulting him and accurately foretold the future, 1 Samuel 28:16-19.   In addition we also that Saul knew it was Samuel’s shade by the Witches description.

Jesus testifies of the shade of the Rich man in Hades speaking with Abraham’s ghost and the earlier asking that the phantasm of Lazarus be sent to his brothers to warn them from their wicked ways, Luke 16:19-31.

I assume you believe that ghosts, aka souls of the dead, reside in Hades, aka Sheol, Hell.  That is enough to point out that Mike Boll and those who believe likewise believe that the resurrected will be raised as ghosts.

Thank you for your point of view.

[kerwin]

Gene,

Jesus told a parable of Hades, Luke 16:19-31, and from that parable we learn that souls continue to exist after the death of the body and that God can send such souls to visit the living if he desires. We also know from Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 that such souls have no hope of a future because their future was set by the way they lived. Scripture speaks of the dead as if their souls are still living and are at rest in Hades. Some rest in torment and some rest in pleasantry according to what they did while still living. That is what we know from the parable of Jesus.

It is true that that a human being becomes a living soul when God breathes life into their body. There is nothing that states that the removal of that life causes the soul once living to stop existing. There is plenty of evidence to show that it still exists after the death of the body which houses it. Consider Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10.

You state Jesus was dead after his crucifixion and that is true and yet scripture states that he had earlier told a thief that both would be in paradise the day they both died. Abraham, in the parable I mentioned earlier, sounds like he too is in Paradise even though he is clearly in the realm of the dead. Jesus raised himself by his righteous actions before his death. God raised him because Jesus did not earn the wages of sin by his actions.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,01:00)

Mike Boll, You do not remember reading about spiritual flesh as you seem unable to make connections at times.   Paul for instance speaks both of body and flesh differing between different kinds of creations and yet you do not stop to think why he would mention flesh at all if he was condemning all flesh.  You also seem to forget that scripture attests that angels both eat and are touchable and therefore cannot be immaterial beings.  Since they a touchable and yet cannot be harmed it is clear that they have spiritual flesh of a type.     You also seem not to notice that Paul does not just mention one characteristic of that which cannot enter the kingdom of heaven but at least three.  The three I know of are natural, flesh, imperishable.  Since these characteristics are not independent it stands to reason they go together.  So I put them together.    Most of what I just wrote comes from the description of the mortal and immortal bodies in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.   I just do not choose to select one verse and ignore the rest but rather I seek to understand how they tie together.    How do you tie them together? You wrote: Quote Paul never says that “spiritual FLESH” is different from “earthly FLESH” Kerwin.  He uses the differences in the types of flesh we know about on earth to explain that spiritual BODIES are different than earthly BODIES. You are arguing that flesh is equivalent to a body.  That contradicts your overall argument as you are stating Paul is saying we rise in a fleshless body.   It would have made less confusing for Paul just to keep using the word body instead of using flesh to mean body if that was his argument. You have yet to give evidence that anything I have said is unscriptural while I can point out that nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus was raised to his mortal body, especially considering the wounds he bore.   If he was mortal then he would have simply dies once more of those wounds.  Jesus even went to the point of disproving he was a spiritual being that you state he is.  Why would he so deceive his own students if he was in fact a spirit as you claim?

Kerwin

Jesus did not have the same body alfter his resurrection ,the people his disciples did not recognize him ,

and the marks were only simbolique just to show that he was who he says he was.

is original body flesh and blood poured out was his sacrifice and for that it could not be taken back it is a sacrifice to God
Eph 5:2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Lev 7:16 “ ‘If, however, his offering is the result of a vow or is a freewill offering, the sacrifice shall be eaten on the day he offers it,

this is why Christ as taken the last supper with his disciples,
and you can read what he was saying about his body and his blood.

Pierre

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 16 2010,18:04)

Gene, Jesus told a parable of Hades, Luke 16:19-31, and from that parable we learn that souls continue to exist after the death of the body and that God can send such souls to visit the living if he desires.  We also know from Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 that such souls have no hope of a future because their future was set by the way they lived.   Scripture speaks of the dead as if their souls are still living and are at rest in Hades.  Some rest in torment and some rest in pleasantry according to what they did while still living.  That is what we know from the parable of Jesus. It is true that that a human being becomes a living soul when God breathes life into their body.  There is nothing that states that the removal of that life causes the soul once living to stop existing.   There is plenty of evidence to show that it still exists after the death of the body which houses it.  Consider Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. You state Jesus was dead after his crucifixion and that is true and yet scripture states that he had earlier told a thief that both would be in paradise the day they both died.    Abraham, in the parable I mentioned earlier, sounds like he too is in Paradise even though he is clearly in the realm of the dead.  Jesus raised himself by his righteous actions before his death.  God raised him because Jesus did not earn the wages of sin by his actions.

Again no support in the Hebrew Bible. All Hellenistic influence on Hell and Paradise.

[Author]

Posts