- This topic has 5,411 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2010,15:40) Hi Shimmer, Okay, I read every word. The author's understanding of “flesh and blood” referring to “fallen man” is absurd. Where are humans ever called “fallen men” in scriptures?
And he quotes scriptures where he says “flesh” refers to something besides flesh. I disagree with his claim in each of those scriptures. “Flesh” means “flesh” in the scriptures every time it's used. And “flesh and blood” always refers to those living on the earth and is another way of saying “a human being”. For example, your author quotes this verse:
Matthew 16 NIV
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Jesus is saying that a HUMAN BEING didn't reveal this to Peter, but God did.
Here's another one your author says refers to some “fallen man”:
Galatians 1 NIV
15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.Here, the Greek text has “flesh and blood”, meaning “human being”. But because English translators know what is meant by “flesh and blood”, many of them translate it as “human being” as the NIV I quoted does. Let's keep going with his other examples, since there are only 5 mentions of “flesh and blood” in the scriptures.
Ephesians 6 NIV
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.Here Paul is saying that our fight is not against “human beings”, but against the dark spiritual forces fo evil in the heavenly realms. And on this one, your author even agrees that it could refer to “human beings”.
Hebrews 2 NIV
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—Again, the translators of the NIV, understanding completely what was meant, have translated the Greek words for “the same” as “humanity”. Paul is simply saying that since we are human beings, Christ came as a human being (or, “in the flesh”).
So, now that we know 4 out of the 5 mentions of “flesh and blood” in the NT mean “human being”, it shouldn't be so hard to figure out 1 Cor 15.
1 Corinthians 15 NIV
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.Like all the other uses of “flesh and blood”, this one also is saying that “human beings” cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. In order for us to enter into God's domain, we must be changed into something other than a human being by receiving a SPIRITUAL BODY in place of our “human being, flesh and blood” body.
Now whether our original human body is changed into a spirtual body, or God just gives us a different body, I don't know. What I do know from scripture is that there is no “flesh and blood”, or “human being” in heaven. Because those in heaven have spiritual bodies because they are spirit beings. Jesus is a spirit, as scripture tell us clearly. And Jesus now has a spiritual body that CAN be in heaven, unlike a flesh and blood body, which CANNOT.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike.Who really knows ? If it's a debatable subject, anyone could be right.
But, I leave you with this, from St Irenaeus,
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm
God Continually Shows Us in Nature that There Will Be a Resurrection.
Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place. Day and night declare to us a resurrection.
The night sinks to sleep, and the day arises; the day [again] departs, and the night comes on.
Let us behold the fruits [of the earth], how the sowing of grain takes place. The sower Luke 8:5 goes forth, and casts it into the ground, and the seed being thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually dissolved.
Then out of its dissolution the mighty power of the providence of the Lord raises it up again, and from one seed many arise and bring forth fruit.The Phœnix an Emblem of Our Resurrection.
Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about.
There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years.
And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies.
But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the deed bird, brings forth feathers.
Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis.
And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode.
The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.We Shall Rise Again, Then, as the Scripture Also Testifies.
Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise?
For [the Scripture] says in a certain place, You shall raise me up, and I shall confess unto You; and again, I laid me down, and slept; I awoke, because You are with me; and again, Job says, You shall raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things. Job 19:25-26Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2010,11:51) So I agree Paul is talking about BODIES being sown imperishable and being raised imperishable. But don't forget that the body that was sown a natural body will be raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. So what's your point? 
Mike………..SO WHAT MY POINT? surely you jest, My POINT is that we are resurected with a (real physical Body) just as Jesus was.First you say “i agree Paul is talking about “BODIES” being sown perishable and bieng raised imperishable.” Then you say “but don't forget that the body that was sown a natural body will be raised a SPIRITUAL BODY”. Mike it is a “BODY” is the POINT! A spirit does not have a BODY, it is what is (IN) a BODY THAT is THE POINT. Your taking the word “Spiritual” as meaning and SPIRIT EXISTING “BODY” when Spirit does not have a BODY IT IS WHAT IS (IN) A BODY. THAT is ALSO THE POINT.
Spiritual body simply means a BODY that is Spiritually in thinking. Paul uses that term , when he say you are not (IN) the flesh but in the Spirit if so be the mind of Christ (spirit) be (IN) YOU. That simply means that your body is being subject to the Spirit of GOD and therefore you are considered as not being in the flesh even though you have a flesh body. A body is simply a house that the spirit dwells in. A spirit without a house to rest in is simply adrift in in less space having no home to reside in, seeking rest. God himself resides (IN) his Creation in the Bodies He has made , He gives us all bodies and adds spirit into them and also cohabits in them with us as He did with Jesus.
A Physical body is very important or GOD would not have ever made them in the first place. When the creation has been delivered from it bondage of corruption it will exist as the garden of Eden a paradise of Physically existing life forms enjoying eternity with its creator. IMO
peace and love…………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2010,03:51) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 13 2010,01:04) Shimmer! yes, Jesus came in the flesh. yes, Jesus did rise from the death in the flesh. But NO He did not go to Heaven in the flesh. He appeared to Thomas in the flesh because He did not believe that Jesus rose from the death.
Believing that flesh and blood can enter into the Kingdom of God is false.
Hi Irene,It's funny that you and I have never discussed this point among ourselves, but here we are posting the same scriptural logic!
It's easy to see one who bases their beliefs around the words of scripture. If all did what you and I do, then Christianity would be one religion and all believers would be in accord with each other. Because all believers would form their beliefs around what the scriptures say!
peace and love and glad you are here on this site,
mike
Mike! That is very true. It is unfortunate that not all can see it. But again the truth is that God does not all want to see it. And that is why I think after showing a Person three times, and they still don't see it, then it is not in God's plan. It is very hard to deal with, since we have Family that are in Organized religion and simply don't understand….I am glad that you are here too. It makes it easier here…..Knowing one is not alone…..
Peace and Love IreneMikeboll,
In what body was Jesus raised up in from the dead.
Was it a 'Spiritual Body' by any chance?
Just 'yes' or 'no' answers will do, thanks.
Hi JA,
Nice to see a short and “to the point” post from you. I don't believe you to be mentally challenged……….nor am I. So it's sad that we must fight with each other. I would like to offer a truce. Let's keep our posts and questions to each other short and to the point, and we will then be able to easily find the areas or scriptures that we disagree on. And if we disagree on interpretation of a scripture, then let's let it be. We don't have to hate each other just because we disagree.
Agreed? Now I'll answer your direct question as directly as I can.Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 14 2010,11:14) Mikeboll, In what body was Jesus raised up in from the dead.
Was it a 'Spiritual Body' by any chance?
Just 'yes' or 'no' answers will do, thanks.
I believe Jesus was raised from the dead in the same flesh body he died in. He said spirits don't have flesh and bone, so he was obviously not a spirit at that time.After his 40 days on earth, I see no other option than that he was given his spiritual body (or had his flesh one transformed into a spiritual body), because flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And also because Paul clearly says Jesus is a spirit now.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Dec. 14 2010,02:02) Mike! That is very true. It is unfortunate that not all can see it. But again the truth is that God does not all want to see it. And that is why I think after showing a Person three times, and they still don't see it, then it is not in God's plan. It is very hard to deal with, since we have Family that are in Organized religion and simply don't understand….I am glad that you are here too. It makes it easier here…..Knowing one is not alone…..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,23:49) First you say “i agree Paul is talking about “BODIES” being sown perishable and bieng raised imperishable.” Then you say “but don't forget that the body that was sown a natural body will be raised a SPIRITUAL BODY”. Mike it is a “BODY” is the POINT! A spirit does not have a BODY, it is what is (IN) a BODY THAT is THE POINT. Your taking the word “Spiritual” as meaning and SPIRIT EXISTING “BODY” when Spirit does not have a BODY IT IS WHAT IS (IN) A BODY. THAT is ALSO THE POINT.
Hi Gene,You say a spirit does not have a body. But you say that Jesus DOES have a body. Scriptures say Jesus is a spirit now.
That's really the end of my discussion with you.
You say I'm understanding “spiritual body” wrong. But as I see it, an “earthly body” would contain an earthly being in it. And a “spiritual body” would contain a spirit being in it.
You have not shown me any scriptural reason to believe otherwise.
You and I agree that angels have bodies. Scripture says that angels are spirits. Once again, that should be the end of the discussion.
And all I'm doing with you now is answering to the words you add into the scriptures. You want to say that “angels are ministering spirits” really means that they are bodies WITH spirits IN THEM. But the “with”, “in”, and “them” are nowhere to be found in the scripture that says angels are ministering spirits.
I can't do this anymore with you Gene. It drives me bonkers!
I will discuss ANY scriptural point with you up to the time that you start adding your own words into the scriptures. When you start doing that, then I'm just arguing against “what ifs”. Like I said before Gene, if you want to add the word “IN” into Hebrews 1:14, John 1:14 and 1 Corintians 15:45, then go ahead. And go ahead and base your understanding around the scriptures with your added words. I won't do that, nor will I debate against someone who is using scriptures with their own words added.
mike
Hi JA,
I hope I satisfactorily answered your direct question. Please answer this one for me:
Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.I just read your “7 dimension” post in “pre-existent”. You say spirits can be everywhere at every time. Why then, in the scripture above, did Michael have to COME FROM somewhere in order to help Daniel's angel? Why did it take him 21 days to “get there” to help?
Please, just simple and “to the point” answers.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (karmarie @ Dec. 13 2010,05:21) Irene, Mike and Ed. Ok. I will post this and then it's all I have to say on this topic really this time I mean it. I dont agree with everything writen here but it has some points.
Flesh and Blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven
http://www.letusreason.org/JW12.htm
Many cult groups and cultic interpretations of the Scriptures deny a physical resurrection of Christ as well as a physical ascension. In doing this, they also deny that we too will have a physical resurrection.
The consistent teaching throughout the scriptures is that the body (Gr. soma) is resurrected (Gr. anastasis). We never find the resurrection pertaining to a soul or a spirit, because the body is what dies and the soul or spirit, often used interchangeably, lives on eternally. Death means a separation of existence from the body, not non-existence. In Rev. 20:7-10, 13 we read that even the souls in Hades are put back into their resurrected bodies to be judged for their works. Not only are they alive in Hades in spirit, they are also alive in Heaven. Rev. 6:9 tells us that the souls of the dead saints cry to the Lord to be avenged. This is not an idiom but a event of their continual beseeching for God to punish the wicked.
The resurrection is the very capstone of Christianity, afterward his death Christ appeared in a physical body. There is a one-to-one correspondence between the body that dies with the body that resurrects. If this is not true, then the apostles who preached that Christ arose from the dead are false witnesses because belief in the resurrection is essential for salvation (Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor.15:1-4). This is what makes Christ unique among any other religious teacher, he is the only one to raise from the dead to live forever. He also claims he will be the one to raise everyone else in the resurrection.
We find that all the accounts of the resurrection show that the person rose physically in the same body. Two examples are Lazarus (Luke 11), and Jairus' daughter. Jesus also rose from the dead in the flesh (Luke 24:39; Acts 2:31; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Numerous times they were told to eat proving it was a physical resurrection and that the body needed immediate nourishment.
What do we make of the statement in 1 Cor. 15:50-56 that “flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Does this mean that we will be spirits? That only certain people will go to heaven? The expression “flesh and blood” occurs only five times in the New Testament. We need to define our definition of its meaning from the overall teachings. If we examine the following references we see the writers are often speaking of 'flesh and blood” as being synonymous with “fallen man”, just as it is of the physical body. If you substitute the words “fallen man” (unregenerate) in the place of “flesh and blood” we can understand better what Paul is conveying.
Sometimes the word for flesh (sarx) is used literally (as in Heb.10:20) Sometimes it is used in a figurative manner as in Rom.8:9 (you are not in the flesh but the Spirit). Meaning the new nature rules over the old.
Matthew 16:13-17: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father who is in heaven.” Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or the corrupt nature of man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter? It came from God who is Spirit.
Galatians 1:16: “Straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood…. “ Obviously Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but rather to corrupt and sinful man.
Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood. “ A case can be made either way in the interpretation of this text. For instance, because Christians do not physically wrestle with their opposition. Paul is not be referring to the physical body, we don't wrestle against sinful corrupt nature of other men but the spiritual forces of evil influencing him.
Hebrews 2:14:, “For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. . . “ Here the text does refer to the physical flesh but Jesus did not take on Himself a sinful nature. It means he became a human having the same physical flesh and blood minus the sin nature. As Rom.8:3 says Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh”, in other words he was fully man, he looked like any other but without the sin. The word for flesh used here refers to mankind in their fallen state (the body of flesh).
When speaking of sinful man who consists of flesh and blood he cannot enter the kingdom of God without a new birth. Jn.3:3-5 Jesus explains that a fallen man cannot enter God's kingdom without being spiritually regenerated, he will not even see the kingdom of God.
I Corinthians 15:50 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. “ The Apostle Paul turns to the subject of transformation of the body not the soul. The body that we now possess is not suitable for the heavenly kingdom. It is corrupted, subject to disease, and decays. Only that which is pure, incorruptible and immortal can enter heaven, this is why there must be a change. Paul is answering the question of what kind of “body” believers will receive in the resurrection (vs. 35). It will be a “spiritual body” (vs. 44). A “spiritual body” must be defined by the ONLY example we have of one, the first fruits from the dead, the body of Jesus. He described his body as one of flesh and bone, (possibly bloodless) (Lk.24:39). The resurrection body has no need of blood as its life because its nature will not be the same. Presently the blood nourishes the cells that are in need of constant repair but food and water to supply nourishment will no longer be needed. No cells will be in need of repair in our glorified bodies so we will no longer need blood. As it states in Revelation we will neither hunger or thirst. We can eat but not from necessity. We will still have our body and its functions but obviously some things will change.
In verses 51-52, Paul then proceeds to tell us a mystery which involves the change that all believers will go through, The corruptible will put on incorruption, and mortality will become immortality. We need to have a complete change to make us suitable for our new environment. This implies a conversion of our same physical bodies to a body with heavenly qualities. Nature does not know extinction but transformation, as science says energy cannot be destroyed but transformed.
Paul states that their dead body is sown and will be resurrected to new life. God has it become a new body ( 1Cor.15:38). The old body puts on (is swallowed up) by the new body it is transformed into something permanent.
The statement characterizes the resurrection body as one completely filled and governed by the Holy Spirit … Another statement by Paul, that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' (I Cor. 15:50) is considered to exclude the idea of a resurrection body of flesh. The apostle however, teaches something entirely different. The expression 'flesh and blood' never denotes the substance of the body, but man in his totality as a frail and perishable creature in his untransformed state (Mt.16:17; Gal 1:16; Eph. 6:12; Heb 2:14). It has the same meaning in I Corinthians 15:50, shown by the fact that in the parallel clause (v. 50b) the word corruption is used, which obviously denotes the whole man in his corruptibility and not the substance of his body. The entire contest shows that man, as a frail perishable creature, cannot enter God's glorious, eschatological kingdom. He first must be made immortal, powerful, and glorious. There is no denial of a resurrection in a body of flesh.”
(J. A. Schep in Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia Vol. V, p. 74).There will be many flesh and blood people living in the millennial kingdom that will not be regenerated, so it is obvious that this phrase does not mean what Jehovah's Witnesses make it to be. Christ told Nicodemus in Jn.3:3 except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (nor enter the kingdom). The emphasis is on a spiritual rebirth that can only come from God himself, the Holy Spirit.
2 Cor. 5:1-5: “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” Notice it states the new body our housing is in heaven and from heaven. Why?
Because we are changed, made to adjust to a new location. Mankind was made a different species than the angels as far as having a physical covering. God’s purpose is to give us a permanent body to live in. We were made as human creatures to live in a body eternally. We are not just spirit, nor are we animals.
Thank you for such an informative post.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2010,11:55) You say I'm understanding “spiritual body” wrong. But as I see it, an “earthly body” would contain an earthly being in it. And a “spiritual body” would contain a spirit being in it. You have not shown me any scriptural reason to belio teve otherwise.
Mike………..OK here is your reason to believe otherwise, When a man dies His “SPIRIT” goes to him who gave it. Tell us was that a BODY the went to HIM who gave IT or a spirit body. I thought the Body went into the ground and corrupted, but according to you , no the BODY was the SPIRIT that returned to GOD who gave it, right?Here is more proof that a spirit is not a Body, When an unclean Spirit leaves a man (IT) goes about in ARID PLACES LOOKING FOR REST, and then what Mike?, (IT) goes back into the (BODY) it came out of and takes Seven More worse then it self with it> So according to you screwed up reasoning this man Now would Have seven more SPIRIT BODIES in HIM right?
Again a Spirit is not a Body it, is what is (IN) a BODY. And there is not scripture that says Jesus is a SPIRIT BODY. Jesus now has the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD in HIM tell us Mike does this mean He has the seven Bodies of GOD in HIM according to you logic that would be the case right. They might be seven bodies of (Intellect) but nothing else. They themselves have no substance or matter. Spirit is useless if it can not animate anything such as a Body. And the body is useless if it does not have spirit to animate it ALSO. It takes Both to be a LIVING SOUL. All resurrection in scripture contain Bodies all of them without exception of any.
Mike no matter how you try to make others look you only make yourself look more ridiculous on this one, and have no idea in the world what you are talking about . IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Mike Boll,
You argue that Jesus’ resurrection was not the final resurrection but was a resurrection in which he woken up to live his worldly life for a while and thus he is not the first born from among the dead. Lazarus for instance was woken before Jesus only to continue living a worldly life until he died again until Resurrection Day. Therefore since according to you Jesus did not experience the final resurrection of the dead he must have like both Enoch and Elijah have ascended to God while living his worldly life and been transformed in the blink of an eye.
I have read the scriptures you have quoted but the meanings you have given them are not consistent with Scripture and therefore are not valid or sound.
Obviously you chose which of Paul’s words in 1 Corinthian 15 that you choose to apply to Jesus and then speculate on why some do and some do not. Thank you for your conjectures.
I saw the words your wrote to JA about the Greek word translated “man” as regards “heavenly man” and wondered if you had also considered where Jesus after his resurrection is called a human being in 1 Timothy 2:5.
In addition I understand you believe a spirit has not flesh, blood, or bone but does have a body. That is the description of a ghost.
Kerwin,
I have not always seen sense in many things that you have written, but, this last post of yours is Comprehensively Spirit given.
Mike has changed from 'proving' Spirits, that is, Angels, have bodies (…remember the thread topic), and has found one single verse that uses the word 'body' but not prephrased by the word 'flesh or fleshly'.
What Mike has failed to admit, is that it is exclusively talking about 'Mankind', and specifically about those of Mankind who 'WILL' be risen at the first resurrection and become like Jesus, risen into a 'Spiritual Body'.
Now we know that when Jesus was risen, he had a …body… And, Thomas would not believe that it was Christ until he touched Him.
So, we know that the 'body' was flesh and blood and bone.
Again, What 'body' was Jesus raised up into, what does Scriotures say, 'A Spiritual Body'
….what body, physical, flesh, blood and bone body was Jesus raised up in?? A …physical, flesh blood and bone Spiritual body.So, here, we need to discern what was meant by 'Spiritual'…
Mike says it means , 'of the Spirit'. Mike chose one definition without expanding on it.
Just the 'three kings' here claimed that 'Celestial bodies' meant 'Spirits in Heaven' when virtually EVERY Dictionary definition says it, just as Paul, the original writer says it, 'Heavenly….bodies: Sun, Moon, Stars…bodies in the Sky that glows, gives off light'
So, having made such a grave…error none of the 'three kings' dained to admit it even though i made pleas and offered a 'welcome to the truth mat, and a nice cup of freshly made Earl Grey Tea in pure porcelain china tea cups and low fat milk, no sugar…oh and some Rich Tea biscuits in a side plate' (Yumm…who could resist…well obviously, then three…)
Once showing error, they should have gone back and reexamined everything they thought of in light of this crushing revelation of truth to them.
But, in a cain (ha ha…was that deliberate?)…vain attempt to save face, they ignore the truth, Irene simply reposting pointlessly Scripture verse without explaining why, and blaming her dictionary..typical….she's online…she could use any of a tens of dictionaries but she deliberately chose one that, even now i can't see it, exclusively say differently to what 99.999% of every other dictionary says…and moreover…'Common Sense' says.
And Terra, i have no idea what he is saying mostof the time. Poor guy has been trying to follow Mike Bull…and is getting lost in the mud waggling that Mike does when he can't get his way, which means, 'all the time'…. How many times can one person discuss, 'point by point' and never get past 'point #1'?
Spiritual Body…Spiritual Body…
A body that is Spiritual? But what is 'Spiritual' …'of the Spirit'.'Of the Spirit'…not 'IS Spirit'…
Also, 'Having highly developed or refined qualities of mind or sensibility'…yes, Jesus was 'perfected in the flesh', therefore becoming refined like the Spirits..(Remember, Man, even Jesus, was made lower than the Angels…), but in the flesh…hence God called him 'My Son'.What, then, Mike, is a 'Spiritual Mind'? Or 'Spiritually Minded'
And a 'Spiritual Matters'Notice Mike, 'SpiritUAL body' not 'Spirit body'… Not the same things…
Mike, I notice you have refrained from using 'Wikipedia' to prove your point…any reason…?
Mike, how do you feel when you realise you have misled you two companions? You trust up your shoulders and say, 'so what, they didn't have to follow me. I didn't ask them to, did i?'
Oh, and Mike,
In my Bible, it does say, Heavenly 'Man' and there is no footnote saying 'Man* Word added'.
See Mike, why does verse 49 say 'we will bear the image of the Heavenly Man'.
Ok, take out the 'Man'…
'We will bare the image of the Heavenly'.Please explain to me what on earth or in the heavens this means….that we will bare the image of Angels?
Since when did God aspire mankind to become like Angels…but to become 'better than Angels'…'for we shall Judge Angels'…Mike, one Angel does not judge another…not even bring a reviling contempt.So, since one spirit is like another, the 'heavenly' cannot be what is inferred.
Man must bear the image of 'he who is our pattern', he who overcame and was declared 'Son of God with power at such a time when it was said, 'You are my Son, today i have become your father''
And 'we' too, will be raised up, first having 'died' in the flesh, or metaphorically, 'in the body' to become incuruptible Spiritually minded, and spiritually bodied, in the manner of Christ Jesus, becoming 'Son of God' as he is.Mike, put away you false ideas. No one is laughing at you, just in pain as to seeing a brother making a mockery of what he mistaken thinks is Godliness, Holy Spirit inspired rendering….Mike….test the Spirit…always…
Mike, Kerwin said to you,
Quote In addition I understand you believe a spirit has not flesh, blood, or bone but does have a body. That is the description of a ghost How would you tell one “Ghost” from another ? (Jesus amongst the “Ghosts ?”)
Jesus is not a Ghost. He is risen from the dead. He has a body. His body is similar to what we have though changed. He showed the Disciples this. “Blessed is he who has not seen yet believes”. This body is the difference in Him and Spirits, as He said. He is the firstborn of the dead, a new creation. And other's too will be born from the dead, begotten of the Father to everlasting life.
Mike,
Can you show me where Paul says that Jesus is Spirit now.It is certain that Jesus 'IS' in Spirit form in Heaven…but he is ALSO Man..
Jesus is the first of the new creation, of whom many more will follow. There will be the Elders, the Saints, the Apostles, the Disciples, 144,000 from every tribe, nation and tongue on the earth, from past, present and some yet to come.
Mike's subtle point of argument: when he can't prove a point, he turns it round a says, 'you prove i'm wrong…'. Neat…or it would be if it's name were not 'Deceit'.
Even THOMAS believed when he was shown proof. Mike, if Thomas had not believed Jesus was real, a flesh and blood man, a real body, not a Spirit…not a Spirit but a Man with a Spiritual flesh and bone body… Mike, what would Jesus have said…'get thee behind me, Thomas. Thou art a stumbling block, unblessed with a stupor'Mike,
I checked you NetBible today…
I was astounded to see all the proofs of 'Spiritual' laid bare AGAINST you.No wonder you never refered to, or from it, in your defence – because it proves AGAINST you.
And whom should this verse be appointed to:
1 Cor 2:15 “The one who is spiritual discerns all things – yet he himself is believed by no one.”
Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 15 2010,08:53) Mike,
I checked you NetBible today…
I was astounded to see all the proofs of 'Spiritual' laid bare AGAINST you.No wonder you never refered to, or from it, in your defence – because it proves AGAINST you.
And whom should this verse be appointed to:
1 Cor 2:15 “The one who is spiritual discerns all things – yet he himself is believed by no one.”
To all! The verse JA quotes is1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
yet in this verse it says
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
also
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
definition of celestial in Webster Dictionary is heavenly…….Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 14 2010,15:55)
When a man dies His “SPIRIT” goes to him who gave it. Tell us was that a BODY the went to HIM who gave IT or a spirit body.
Tell me Gene, how does God know which spirit is yours and which spirit is mine so He can give back the right spirit to the right person in the resurrection? What is it that distinguishes Michael the archangel from the angel Gabriel?You seem to be stuck on the word “body” meaning some kind of earthly body. An angel's “body” could look like a cloud for all we know. Although, anytime they're ever seen in visions, they do seem to have bodies similar to ours……….with a few noticeable variations like wings and animal faces. But they apparently have hands according to scripture.
Instead of me following you around in circles Gene, let's just get down to the brass tacks, okay?
You believe that angels have bodies, right? Scripture says that angels are spirits. You believe that Jesus has a body, right? Scripture says that Jesus is a spirit. Isn't that enough for you?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 14 2010,15:55)
Here is more proof that a spirit is not a Body, When an unclean Spirit leaves a man (IT) goes about in ARID PLACES LOOKING FOR REST, and then what Mike?, (IT) goes back into the (BODY) it came out of and takes Seven More worse then it self with it>
And how do they know that SEVEN are inside the man, Gene? If they don't have bodies, then there is nothing separating one of them from the others. And if there is nothing separating them all from each other, then there is not SEVEN of them, but one.Again, don't think “body” as YOU know bodies. Think “fog” or “mist” or “clouds”.
I've posted this many times, and no one but Pierre has even commented on it. And Pierre understands that what I'm saying has to do with SEPARATION. So listen carefully and see if you can get this:
If there are at least TWO beings in existence, there ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE something that SEPARATES one being from the other(s). If there is nothing that SEPARATES one being from the other(s), then they would “blend” together into ONE being.
Can any of you understand this? Shimmer? JA? Gene? Kerwin?
Let me try to explain it a different way. If at any given time, there is a place where a being is, AND a place where that being is NOT, there HAS TO BE something that determines “THIS” is where he IS, and “THIS” is where he is not at the moment. That “thing” that distinguishes where he is from where he's not is a body of some sort. And any being that does NOT have this “determining factor” that I'm calling a “body” would go on and on and on in all directions for infinity – encompassing and BEING everything in it's path.
So let's say that YOU are the only other living thing in existence besides this “bodyless being”. When this being with no body came into contact with you, one of ONLY TWO things could happen.
1. That being would encompass you and you would become part of that being, making only ONE being in existence.
2. YOUR body would form a barrier that separated you from that “bodyless being”. So now we have TWO in existence, and at least ONE of them HAS TO HAVE a body that separates the TWO from each other.
Now imagine the same scenario, except substitute an angel in place of you. The same results apply. If the angel did not have a body of some kind to SEPARATE his being from the being of the “bodyless being”, then that angel would have been “absorbed” into that “bodyless being”. And if that happened, there would no longer be TWO beings in existence, but only ONE.
Any questions? Any comments?
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
