Do spirits have bodies?

[mikeboll64]

Listen Gene.  I'm going to address your points one at a time for the last time.  I will number my points.  If your next post to me does NOT actually ADDRESS these points in a similarly numbered fashion, so as to actually ACKNOWLEDGE that you read them and ANSWER them, I'm done with you on this topic.  You and JA are very similar in your posting methods.  You both purposely overlook the direct evidence and do strange dances around it.  You are both masters at diverting the point, and I'm tired of it.  Either ANSWER the points DIRECTLY, or don't bother posting to me, for I will ignore it.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,06:51)

you have not shown ONE Scripture the PROVES there is any Such thing as a SPIRIT BODY in any FORM.

1.  Here's your “one scripture” Gene.

1 Corinthians 15 NIV
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,06:51)

Does GOD also have a BODY if so why did John say No man has ever seen GOD.

2.  Gene, why would you think that a spiritual body could be seen by humans?  You know that angles have bodies, right?  Yet we can't see them anytime we want to, right?  And the angels CAN SEE God.  How do they know it's God their looking at and not some other angel or empty space?  Why does Jesus say that the angels of little ones SEE THE FACE OF GOD every day?  Could it be that no man has seen God because God hasn't ALLOWED any man to see Him?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,06:51)

Why did Jesus say a Spirit doe not have a body as He had after his resurrection,

3.  Jesus NEVER said spirits don't have bodies Gene.  Jesus said a spirit doesn't have FLESH AND BONE.  And since we KNOW from scripture that Jesus became a life-giving SPIRIT, and since we KNOW from scripture that FLESH cannot enter the Kingdom of God, we must assume that he was raised from the dead with his flesh and bone body, and then raised to heaven 40 days later in his new SPIRITUAL BODY that is void of FLESH.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,06:51)

Mike lets be honest for a change TRUTH is NOT what you SEEK but to just push your own form of religion.

Let's find out if you're right, Gene.  DIRECTLY answer each and every point on this post, and SCRIPTURALLY show me where I'm mistaken.  Let's see if YOU can “be honest for a change”, Gene.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,06:51)

and it doesn't matter if you must change word or contexts to fit them either, it appears. IMO

Words of wisdom spoken from a man who wants to add the word “IN” into John 1:14 when it's not there in order to keep his flawed doctine in tact.

Answer EACH AND EVERY point above Gene.  Answer them DIRECTLY just like they are DIRECT answers to YOUR points.  There are only 3 points, and they are numbered.  I want you to, number by number, show me where I've spoken illogically or unscripturally.  Do this, or don't bother posting to me at all.  

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,07:38)

It's amazing that you are suggesting such a silly thing that I am implying that Paul is suggesting that we will be raised up as 'Sun, moon and Stars'.

Very good JA.  We are making headway.  We have jumped one hurdle successfully, here's the next:

JA, can you BRIEFLY and DIRECTLY answer this point?

Paul said there are earthly bodies and heavenly spiritual bodies.  He said that as WAS Adam, so ARE those of earth.  And as IS Jesus, so ARE those of heaven.

I don't see “so WILL BE those of heaven once the rest are raised”……….do you?    So doesn't it mean that Jesus is now like those who ALREADY ARE of heaven?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2010,20:06)

Could it be that Jesus was raised with the body he died with but then later ascended to heaven in his new spiritual body?

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2010,09:01)

It is doubtful as the body Jesus was raised with did not perish even though it bore the same wounds that had proved fatal to it before.

Ah, but the bodies of many in scripture who died and were raised back to life were the same bodies they died in, right?

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2010,09:01)

Another point is according to scripture the body that is buried is not the body that is raised.

But we are speaking of two different “raisings” Kerwin.  Lazarus was “raised” from the dead in his same body, right?  Now if Lazarus had been “raised” to heaven, he would need a different body, but not if he's only being “raised” back to life as a human being.

And this is what I suggest, that Jesus was “raised” from death as a human being still, and 40 days later was “raised” to heaven with a spiritual body.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2010,09:01)

I know of no scripture that would support the conclusion that his body was transformed afterward,

Oh, you know of them alright.  You're just not connecting the dots yet.

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

This says that Jesus is NOT a spirit yet, because he DOES have flesh, right?

1 Corinthians 15
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

This one says that Jesus IS a SPIRIT now, right?  So can he still have the FLESH he had when he was first raised from the dead?

1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

And this scripture makes clear that if Jesus is in the Kingdom of God right now, then he can't possibly have FLESH anymore.  Paul is also contrasting the perishable bodies we now have with the imperishable ones those of heaven have.

So all the scriptural evidence IS there Kerwin……..if you connect the dots.  

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2010,09:21)

I agree that events involving angels involve them having bodies and those claiming they do not need to explain those occurrences.

Bravo!

[mikeboll64]

Gene, not that ANY of this moderator business has anything at all to do with you, I will address your points anyway.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,09:24)

Mike……….Well i am glad about that or you would already have kicked JA of the site it appears, as you have others like Martian i believe.

I have given 3 blocks in the many months that I've been a moderator.  2 to KJ, not for totally misquoting my post to make it sound like I was saying the opposite of what I posted, but for REFUSING to correct the matters when I brought them to his attention via pm.

The 3rd one was to JA recently as I was acting on someone else reporting one of his abusive posts.  

I have NEVER given Martian a block, nor reported any of his posts.

From now on, don't worry about what I do or don't do as a moderator.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,10:15)

Mike, why is Jesus called 'the heavenly man'? why not just 'a heavenly Spirit'?

The word “man” is not in the Greek JA.  The Greek says, “As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.”  And the translations that insert “man” are not meaning a “heavenly human being” JA.  They are using “man” to mean “a heavenly PERSON”.

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,10:15)

A Spirit has no 'body'.  That's why it is called 'Spirit'.

What do you think “spiritual” means JA?  It means “regarding things of the spirit”.  A “spiritual body” is regarding the type of body a spirit would have.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 12 2010,20:56)

So to believe that He was risen and went to Heaven in spirit only, you are holding onto some of the Gnostic teaching's.

Hi Shimmer,

I DO believe that Jesus came in the flesh. He was in the form of God as the Word and then emptied himself and became flesh. But can he still be flesh when the scriptures say he is now a spirit and that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God?

Read my post to Kerwin that is 4 posts before this one……….and post me what you think after reading that post.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 13 2010,01:04)

Shimmer!  yes, Jesus came in the flesh.  yes, Jesus did rise from the death in the flesh.  But NO He did not go to Heaven in the flesh.  He appeared to Thomas in the flesh because He did not believe that Jesus rose from the death.   Believing that flesh and blood can enter into the Kingdom of God is false.

Hi Irene,

It's funny that you and I have never discussed this point among ourselves, but here we are posting the same scriptural logic!

It's easy to see one who bases their beliefs around the words of scripture.  If all did what you and I do, then Christianity would be one religion and all believers would be in accord with each other.  Because all believers would form their beliefs around what the scriptures say!

peace and love and glad you are here on this site,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..Lets just deal with just ONE of you offered proof text right now before we go all over the place trying to scramble things up as you are very good at doing IMO and others also.

1 Cor 15:35……….But some man will say, (HOW) are the (DEAD) raised UP? You fool, that which you sow is not quickened, (brought to life) except (It) (that body) die. And that which you sow, you sow not that (BODY) that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain. But God gives (IT) and (Body) as it has pleased him. and to every seed his own (BODY).

So what is Paul saying here in his analogy , is he saying the new Body from the grain or seed is not a material body of some kind and if he is using this as his analogy to us then we can also expect a physical body too right?, but of a different make up , just as the seed takes on a new body but none the less it still is a physical body right. So so far you flawed analogy of our physical bodies truing into a none Physical one has fail at lest by the (EXACT) comparison Paul is using here. But lets continue..>

1 Cor 15:39…..> All (FLESH) is not the same FLESH: But there is one kind of flesh of Men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of Birds…> Now notice he have never changed the idea of a Flesh existence but rather the types of Flesh but still (FLESH)>. A physical existence. Not he changes to other physical existences other then life forms, to show the glory of each, .

1 Cor 15:40……> There are also celestial bodies, (physical bodies in the heavens)and bodies Terrestrial (earth bodies) and the glory of the celestial is one and the glory of the terrestrial is another….> still physical bodies being mentioned here and he backs this up by describing those bodies,…> continuing,…> there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: (all celestial physical bodies) for one star differers from another star in glory> Now he ties this into the resurrection, 1cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of (THE DEAD). (IT) (the body that died) is sown in corruption; (IT) (the body that died) is (RAISED) Incorruptible: , (IT) (the body that died) is sown in dishonor: (IT) (the body that died) is raised in GLORY: (IT) (the body that died) is sown in weakness, (IT) (the body the died) is raised in POWER: (IT) (the body that died) is sown a natural body: (IT) (the Body that died) is raised a (SPIRITUAL) BODY. Notice it does not say SPIRIT Body, But a SPIRITUAL BODY As it is written the first man Adam was MADE a Living Soul and the last Adam was made a quickening (life giving) Spirit. This quicking Spiirt is (IN) a physical BODY that will never Die because it has a (quicking) spirit in it.

Every resurrection in the bible of any kind includes a Physical Body, go read the valley of dead bones and see what GOD Said He would do and how they are raised, they all (the whole house of Israel) had flesh and bones and sinew and spirit added back into them. The second man Adam (JESUS) came to have after his resurrection, a life giving Spirit existing (IN) his physical Body. and he plainly said a Spirit does not have a flesh and bone as you see I HAVE. There is no scripture that say He changed his body (TYPE) (AFTER) his resurrection either. And when He returns he will have a Physical body also the same one he left with. IMO

peace and love………………………………gene

Mike here is another point you need to consider why would Jesus tell his disciples that every hair in there heads were numbered, what for or what would be the point for them to be numbers if not to be reconstructed at a latter date.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Gene,

I appreciate that you took the time to really address my first point.  That's the only way any of us will get to the bottom of any dispute.  We must both be willing to acknowledge and respond to the other's points.

Unfortunately, everything you said boils down to this quote:

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42)

The second man Adam (JESUS) came to have after his resurrection, a life giving Spirit existing (IN) his physical Body.

Can you see that you're doing it again Gene?  You are adding the word “IN” into the scripture when it's not there.  You just can't do that.  You do it in John 1:14 and now you're doing it here.  I'll tell you what; you go ahead and be right – and I'll even agree with your understanding when we use “The New Testament As Translated By Gene Balthrop”, okay?

But when we use the actual words of the NT without adding our own words into the text, then Jesus has become a SPIRIT.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42)

and he plainly said a Spirit does not have a flesh and bone as you see I HAVE.

This is my point #3 Gene.  I have addressed it.  It's up to you to show how my explanation of it is unscriptural or illogical.  I'll wait for you to address my point #2 and #3 and go from there, okay?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42)

Mike here is another point you need to consider why would Jesus tell his disciples that every hair in there heads were numbered, what for or what would be the point for them to be numbers if not to be reconstructed at a latter date.

Hi Gene,

Jesus is telling us how important we are to our God even as human beings. This scripture doesn't say anything about whether or not those raised to heaven will have hair – or how many hairs they will have.

mike

[karmarie]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,01:49)

Karmarie…………You have it right, anyone who does not believe Jesus came into existence as a flesh being is Antichrist this is the Spirit that separates Jesus from our own personal identity , it is the spirit of both the trinitarians and preexistences as well as that of the Gnostic's. It all serves to drive a wedge between Jesus and us making him something different then we are, it is truly Antichrist. Jesus was a MAN when He left this earth with a flesh body and will return in the same manner as he left as a son of Man , he is the son of GOD just as all Men can be a SONS of GOD by the exact same process and can overcome (exactly) as He did by the (exact) same power working (IN) them The Spirit of the Living GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

Hi Gene. Thanks. But I do believe that Jesus pre-existed. He was the Word or Logos. As scripture say's.

[karmarie]

Irene, Mike and Ed.  

Ok. I will post this and then it's all I have to say on this topic really this time I mean it. I dont agree with everything writen here but it has some points.

Flesh and Blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven

http://www.letusreason.org/JW12.htm

Many cult groups and cultic interpretations of the Scriptures deny a physical resurrection of Christ as well as a physical ascension. In doing this, they also deny that we too will have a physical resurrection.

The consistent teaching throughout the scriptures is that the body (Gr. soma) is resurrected (Gr. anastasis). We never find the resurrection pertaining to a soul or a spirit, because the body is what dies and the soul or spirit, often used interchangeably, lives on eternally. Death means a separation of existence from the body, not non-existence. In Rev. 20:7-10, 13 we read that even the souls in Hades are put back into their resurrected bodies to be judged for their works. Not only are they alive in Hades in spirit, they are also alive in Heaven. Rev. 6:9 tells us that the souls of the dead saints cry to the Lord to be avenged. This is not an idiom but a event of their continual beseeching for God to punish the wicked.

The resurrection is the very capstone of Christianity, afterward his death Christ appeared in a physical body. There is a one-to-one correspondence between the body that dies with the body that resurrects. If this is not true, then the apostles who preached that Christ arose from the dead are false witnesses because belief in the resurrection is essential for salvation (Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor.15:1-4). This is what makes Christ unique among any other religious teacher, he is the only one to raise from the dead to live forever. He also claims he will be the one to raise everyone else in the resurrection.

We find that all the accounts of the resurrection show that the person rose physically in the same body. Two examples are Lazarus (Luke 11), and Jairus' daughter. Jesus also rose from the dead in the flesh (Luke 24:39; Acts 2:31; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Numerous times they were told to eat proving it was a physical resurrection and that the body needed immediate nourishment.

What do we make of the statement in 1 Cor. 15:50-56 that “flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Does this mean that we will be spirits? That only certain people will go to heaven? The expression “flesh and blood” occurs only five times in the New Testament. We need to define our definition of its meaning from the overall teachings. If we examine the following references we see the writers are often speaking of 'flesh and blood” as being synonymous with “fallen man”, just as it is of the physical body. If you substitute the words “fallen man” (unregenerate) in the place of “flesh and blood” we can understand better what Paul is conveying.

Sometimes the word for flesh (sarx) is used literally (as in Heb.10:20) Sometimes it is used in a figurative manner as in Rom.8:9 (you are not in the flesh but the Spirit). Meaning the new nature rules over the old.

Matthew 16:13-17: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father who is in heaven.” Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or the corrupt nature of man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter? It came from God who is Spirit.

Galatians 1:16: “Straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood…. “ Obviously Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but rather to corrupt and sinful man.

Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood. “ A case can be made either way in the interpretation of this text. For instance, because Christians do not physically wrestle with their opposition. Paul is not be referring to the physical body, we don't wrestle against sinful corrupt nature of other men but the spiritual forces of evil influencing him.

Hebrews 2:14:, “For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. . . “ Here the text does refer to the physical flesh but Jesus did not take on Himself a sinful nature. It means he became a human having the same physical flesh and blood minus the sin nature. As Rom.8:3 says Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh”, in other words he was fully man, he looked like any other but without the sin. The word for flesh used here refers to mankind in their fallen state (the body of flesh).

When speaking of sinful man who consists of flesh and blood he cannot enter the kingdom of God without a new birth. Jn.3:3-5 Jesus explains that a fallen man cannot enter God's kingdom without being spiritually regenerated, he will not even see the kingdom of God.

I Corinthians 15:50 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. “ The Apostle Paul turns to the subject of transformation of the body not the soul. The body that we now possess is not suitable for the heavenly kingdom. It is corrupted, subject to disease, and decays. Only that which is pure, incorruptible and immortal can enter heaven, this is why there must be a change. Paul is answering the question of what kind of “body” believers will receive in the resurrection (vs. 35). It will be a “spiritual body” (vs. 44). A “spiritual body” must be defined by the ONLY example we have of one, the first fruits from the dead, the body of Jesus. He described his body as one of flesh and bone, (possibly bloodless) (Lk.24:39). The resurrection body has no need of blood as its life because its nature will not be the same. Presently the blood nourishes the cells that are in need of constant repair but food and water to supply nourishment will no longer be needed. No cells will be in need of repair in our glorified bodies so we will no longer need blood. As it states in Revelation we will neither hunger or thirst. We can eat but not from necessity. We will still have our body and its functions but obviously some things will change.

In verses 51-52, Paul then proceeds to tell us a mystery which involves the change that all believers will go through, The corruptible will put on incorruption, and mortality will become immortality. We need to have a complete change to make us suitable for our new environment. This implies a conversion of our same physical bodies to a body with heavenly qualities. Nature does not know extinction but transformation, as science says energy cannot be destroyed but transformed.

Paul states that their dead body is sown and will be resurrected to new life. God has it become a new body ( 1Cor.15:38). The old body puts on (is swallowed up) by the new body it is transformed into something permanent.

The statement characterizes the resurrection body as one completely filled and governed by the Holy Spirit … Another statement by Paul, that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' (I Cor. 15:50) is considered to exclude the idea of a resurrection body of flesh. The apostle however, teaches something entirely different. The expression 'flesh and blood' never denotes the substance of the body, but man in his totality as a frail and perishable creature in his untransformed state (Mt.16:17; Gal 1:16; Eph. 6:12; Heb 2:14). It has the same meaning in I Corinthians 15:50, shown by the fact that in the parallel clause (v. 50b) the word corruption is used, which obviously denotes the whole man in his corruptibility and not the substance of his body. The entire contest shows that man, as a frail perishable creature, cannot enter God's glorious, eschatological kingdom. He first must be made immortal, powerful, and glorious. There is no denial of a resurrection in a body of flesh.” (J. A. Schep in Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia Vol. V, p. 74).

There will be many flesh and blood people living in the millennial kingdom that will not be regenerated, so it is obvious that this phrase does
not mean what Jehovah's Witnesses make it to be. Christ told Nicodemus in Jn.3:3 except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (nor enter the kingdom). The emphasis is on a spiritual rebirth that can only come from God himself, the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:1-5: “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” Notice it states the new body our housing is in heaven and from heaven. Why?

Because we are changed, made to adjust to a new location. Mankind was made a different species than the angels as far as having a physical covering. God’s purpose is to give us a permanent body to live in. We were made as human creatures to live in a body eternally. We are not just spirit, nor are we animals.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2010,09:45)

Hi Gene, I appreciate that you took the time to really address my first point.  That's the only way any of us will get to the bottom of any dispute.  We must both be willing to acknowledge and respond to the other's points. Unfortunately, everything you said boils down to this quote: Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42) The second man Adam (JESUS) came to have after his resurrection, a life giving Spirit existing (IN) his physical Body. Can you see that you're doing it again Gene?  You are adding the word “IN” into the scripture when it's not there.  You just can't do that.  You do it in John 1:14 and now you're doing it here.  I'll tell you what; you go ahead and be right – and I'll even agree with your understanding when we use “The New Testament As Translated By Gene Balthrop”, okay? But when we use the actual words of the NT without adding our own words into the text, then Jesus has become a SPIRIT. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42) and he plainly said a Spirit does not have a flesh and bone as you see I HAVE. This is my point #3 Gene.  I have addressed it.  It's up to you to show how my explanation of it is unscriptural or illogical.  I'll wait for you to address my point #2 and #3 and go from there, okay? mike

Mike………..That is you normal way of not answering (ALL) the Points i brought out , what about the (IT) that was sown in weakness and the (IT) that was raised in POWER , what was the (IT) speaking of MIKE. See how you divert subject matter by looking for one word that does not fit you views. Come on Mike what was the (IT) the was raised (IN) POWER then. And you have not produce ONE Scripture that say Jesus is a Spirit without a body.

Then you say lets move on no my friend lets not move on lets settle this first , you are a far way of from settling this issue. SO who is the (IT) MIKE, That is (SOWN) IN DISHONOR and (RAISED) IN POWER and GLORY. Is the spirit sown in dishonor and raised in power does the spirit see corruption and is raised up incorruptible , come on Mike address the issues here IF YOU ARE truly HONEST and Can. Fact is Mike you have no idea what you are saying IMO . Trying to make something out of ONE word is just a detraction from the real points . I will not go on to any other points until we have exhausted this on first and you have not even begin to. Good try Slick. IMO

peace and love………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2010,09:59)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,05:42) Mike here is another point you need to consider why would Jesus tell his disciples that every hair in there heads were numbered, what for or what would be the point for them to be numbers if not to be reconstructed at a latter date. Hi Gene, Jesus is telling us how important we are to our God even as human beings.  This scripture doesn't say anything about whether or not those raised to heaven will have hair – or how many hairs they will have. mike

Mike ……..so say you why would GOD even care about their Hair in the first place? Lets read it Mike and see.

Luke 21:16-18……….> And you shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren and kinsfolk, and friends, and some of you shall they cause to be put to (DEATH). 17……> And you shall be hated of all men for my names sake, 18….> But there shall not a HAIR of YOU HEAD (PARISH) .

Why is that Mike if it doesn't matter if (your body Parishes) anyway and you not longer need a body why need Hair. Why is it prevent from (PERISHING) who cares if you loose and hair or two if you are not going to ever need it again. All DNA for everyone is PRESERVED BY GOD for a future resurrection , But then again you do not believe in a resurrection of a real body because you are going to be a Spirit (intellect) drifting around in endless space right?, without a body to be in right?. Mike that is a Jock at best IMO>Our complete DNA is preserved Mike for a future resurrection of a BODY, of real matter of some-kind. IMO

peace and love……………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 13 2010,10:21)

Irene, Mike and Ed.   Ok. I will post this and then it's all I have to say on this topic really this time I mean it. I dont agree with everything writen here but it has some points. Flesh and Blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven http://www.letusreason.org/JW12.htm Many cult groups and cultic interpretations of the Scriptures deny a physical resurrection of Christ as well as a physical ascension. In doing this, they also deny that we too will have a physical resurrection. The consistent teaching throughout the scriptures is that the body (Gr. soma) is resurrected (Gr. anastasis). We never find the resurrection pertaining to a soul or a spirit, because the body is what dies and the soul or spirit, often used interchangeably, lives on eternally. Death means a separation of existence from the body, not non-existence. In Rev. 20:7-10, 13 we read that even the souls in Hades are put back into their resurrected bodies to be judged for their works. Not only are they alive in Hades in spirit, they are also alive in Heaven. Rev. 6:9 tells us that the souls of the dead saints cry to the Lord to be avenged. This is not an idiom but a event of their continual beseeching for God to punish the wicked. The resurrection is the very capstone of Christianity, afterward his death Christ appeared in a physical body. There is a one-to-one correspondence between the body that dies with the body that resurrects. If this is not true, then the apostles who preached that Christ arose from the dead are false witnesses because belief in the resurrection is essential for salvation (Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor.15:1-4). This is what makes Christ unique among any other religious teacher, he is the only one to raise from the dead to live forever. He also claims he will be the one to raise everyone else in the resurrection. We find that all the accounts of the resurrection show that the person rose physically in the same body. Two examples are Lazarus (Luke 11), and Jairus' daughter. Jesus also rose from the dead in the flesh (Luke 24:39; Acts 2:31; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Numerous times they were told to eat proving it was a physical resurrection and that the body needed immediate nourishment. What do we make of the statement in 1 Cor. 15:50-56 that “flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Does this mean that we will be spirits? That only certain people will go to heaven? The expression “flesh and blood” occurs only five times in the New Testament. We need to define our definition of its meaning from the overall teachings. If we examine the following references we see the writers are often speaking of 'flesh and blood” as being synonymous with “fallen man”, just as it is of the physical body. If you substitute the words “fallen man” (unregenerate) in the place of “flesh and blood” we can understand better what Paul is conveying. Sometimes the word for flesh (sarx) is used literally (as in Heb.10:20) Sometimes it is used in a figurative manner as in Rom.8:9 (you are not in the flesh but the Spirit). Meaning the new nature rules over the old. Matthew 16:13-17: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father who is in heaven.” Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or the corrupt nature of man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter? It came from God who is Spirit. Galatians 1:16: “Straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood…. “ Obviously Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but rather to corrupt and sinful man. Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood. “ A case can be made either way in the interpretation of this text. For instance, because Christians do not physically wrestle with their opposition. Paul is not be referring to the physical body, we don't wrestle against sinful corrupt nature of other men but the spiritual forces of evil influencing him. Hebrews 2:14:, “For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. . . “ Here the text does refer to the physical flesh but Jesus did not take on Himself a sinful nature. It means he became a human having the same physical flesh and blood minus the sin nature. As Rom.8:3 says Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh”, in other words he was fully man, he looked like any other but without the sin. The word for flesh used here refers to mankind in their fallen state (the body of flesh). When speaking of sinful man who consists of flesh and blood he cannot enter the kingdom of God without a new birth. Jn.3:3-5 Jesus explains that a fallen man cannot enter God's kingdom without being spiritually regenerated, he will not even see the kingdom of God. I Corinthians 15:50 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. “ The Apostle Paul turns to the subject of transformation of the body not the soul. The body that we now possess is not suitable for the heavenly kingdom. It is corrupted, subject to disease, and decays. Only that which is pure, incorruptible and immortal can enter heaven, this is why there must be a change. Paul is answering the question of what kind of “body” believers will receive in the resurrection (vs. 35). It will be a “spiritual body” (vs. 44). A “spiritual body” must be defined by the ONLY example we have of one, the first fruits from the dead, the body of Jesus. He described his body as one of flesh and bone, (possibly bloodless) (Lk.24:39). The resurrection body has no need of blood as its life because its nature will not be the same. Presently the blood nourishes the cells that are in need of constant repair but food and water to supply nourishment will no longer be needed. No cells will be in need of repair in our glorified bodies so we will no longer need blood. As it states in Revelation we will neither hunger or thirst. We can eat but not from necessity. We will still have our body and its functions but obviously some things will change. In verses 51-52, Paul then proceeds to tell us a mystery which involves the change that all believers will go through, The corruptible will put on incorruption, and mortality will become immortality. We need to have a complete change to make us suitable for our new environment. This implies a conversion of our same physical bodies to a body with heavenly qualities. Nature does not know extinction but transformation, as science says energy cannot be destroyed but transformed. Paul states that their dead body is sown and will be resurrected to new life. God has it become a new body ( 1Cor.15:38). The old body puts on (is swallowed up) by the new body it is transformed into something permanent. The statement characterizes the resurrection body as one completely filled and governed by the Holy Spirit … Another statement by Paul, that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' (I Cor. 15:50) is considered to exclude the idea of a resurrection body of flesh. The apostle however, teaches something entirely different. The expression 'flesh and blood' never denotes the substance of the body, but man in his totality as a frail and perishable creature in his untransformed state (Mt.16:17; Gal 1:16; Eph. 6:12; Heb 2:14). It has the same meaning in I Corinthians 15:50, shown by the fact that in the parallel clause (v. 50b) the word corruption is used, which obviously denotes the whole man in his corruptibility and not the substance of his body. The entire contest shows that man, as a frail perishable creature, cannot enter God's glorious, eschatological kingdom. He first must be made immortal, powerful, and glorious. There is no denial of a resurrection in a body of flesh.” (J. A. Schep in Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia Vol. V, p. 74). There will be many flesh and blood people living in the millennial kingdom that will not be regenerated, so it is obvious that this phrase does not mean what Jehovah's Witnesses make it to be. Christ told Nicodemus in Jn.3:3 except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (nor enter the kingdom). The emphasis is on a spiritual rebirth that can only come from God himself, the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 5:1-5: “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” Notice it states the new body our housing is in heaven and from heaven. Why? Because we are changed, made to adjust to a new location. Mankind was made a different species than the angels as far as having a physical covering. God’s purpose is to give us a permanent body to live in. We were made as human creatures to live in a body eternally. We are not just spirit, nor are we animals.

Karmarie…………..Good Post. I also agree with it. We will all have flesh and bone bodies just as Jesus now has . We simply will be clothed with one that can not die and can live for ever Just like Jesus now has. Good Post IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,10:23)

Mike………..That is you normal way of not answering (ALL) the Points i brought out , what about the (IT) that was sown in weakness and the (IT) that was raised in POWER , what was the (IT) speaking of MIKE.

The “IT” is talking about a body Gene, just like you said.  And while you might take the word “seed” literally to mean a seed we can all see and feel, Paul was prepared for people like you.  Paul was saying that to each “seed” God gives its own body.  BUT……….the bodies of things, or “seeds” in heaven are DIFFERENT from the bodies of things, or “seeds” on earth.  Then Paul points out the sun, moon and stars because they are things people from earth can SEE and RELATE TO as being in heaven AND as having bodies that are different to anything on earth.  He uses these as examples for people who wouldn't understand the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body.  People like you Gene.

So I agree Paul is talking about BODIES being sown imperishable and being raised imperishable.  But don't forget that the body that was sown a natural body will be raised a SPIRITUAL BODY.  So what's your point?  

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,10:23)

See how you divert subject matter by looking for one word that does not fit you views.

And this is why I get almost screaming mad at you Gene.  YOU try to ADD words into the text to make the text fit your belief.  And all that I do is tell you that word is NOT in the text.  And then YOU accuse ME of “looking for words that don't fit my view”.  It's very frustrating Gene.  We are suppose to be discussing our differences in the way we understand the SCRIPTURES, Gene.  How can we do that successfully if you are not using the actual scriptures, but instead are using your own concoction of them?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,10:23)

And you have not produce ONE Scripture that say Jesus is a Spirit without a body.

No, I haven't.  And I won't because their aren't any.  But that's okay because that's not what I believe, nor is it what I've ever claimed.  Jesus DOES have a body as we all know.  And Jesus IS a SPIRIT as those of us who believe the scriptures know.

I almost started my previous post to you by saying, “I agree with you up to this point…………”  So let me say that now.  I agree about the “IT” being a body.  NOW……..can we move on to how you explain Jesus being a SPIRIT like the scripture says he is?  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 13 2010,10:21)

Irene, Mike and Ed.   Ok. I will post this and then it's all I have to say on this topic really this time I mean it. I dont agree with everything writen here but it has some points.

Hi Shimmer,

Okay, I read every word.  The author's understanding of “flesh and blood” referring to “fallen man” is absurd.  Where are humans ever called “fallen men” in scriptures?

And he quotes scriptures where he says “flesh” refers to something besides flesh.  I disagree with his claim in each of those scriptures.  “Flesh” means “flesh” in the scriptures every time it's used.  And “flesh and blood” always refers to those living on the earth and is another way of saying “a human being”.  For example, your author quotes this verse:

Matthew 16 NIV  
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus is saying that a HUMAN BEING didn't reveal this to Peter, but God did.

Here's another one your author says refers to some “fallen man”:

Galatians 1 NIV
15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Here, the Greek text has “flesh and blood”, meaning “human being”.  But because English translators know what is meant by “flesh and blood”, many of them translate it as “human being” as the NIV I quoted does.  Let's keep going with his other examples, since there are only 5 mentions of “flesh and blood” in the scriptures.

Ephesians 6 NIV
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Here Paul is saying that our fight is not against “human beings”, but against the dark spiritual forces fo evil in the heavenly realms.  And on this one, your author even agrees that it could refer to “human beings”.

Hebrews 2 NIV
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Again, the translators of the NIV, understanding completely what was meant, have translated the Greek words for “the same” as “humanity”.  Paul is simply saying that since we are human beings, Christ came as a human being (or, “in the flesh”).

So, now that we know 4 out of the 5 mentions of “flesh and blood” in the NT mean “human being”, it shouldn't be so hard to figure out 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15 NIV
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Like all the other uses of “flesh and blood”, this one also is saying that “human beings” cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.  In order for us to enter into God's domain, we must be changed into something other than a human being by receiving a SPIRITUAL BODY in place of our “human being, flesh and blood” body.

Now whether our original human body is changed into a spirtual body, or God just gives us a different body, I don't know.  What I do know from scripture is that there is no “flesh and blood”, or “human being” in heaven.  Because those in heaven have spiritual bodies because they are spirit beings.  Jesus is a spirit, as scripture tell us clearly.  And Jesus now has a spiritual body that CAN be in heaven, unlike a flesh and blood body, which CANNOT.

peace and love,
mike

[karmarie]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2010,14:12)

Karmarie…………..Good Post. I also agree with it. We will all have flesh and bone bodies just as Jesus now has . We simply will be clothed with one that can  not die and can live for ever Just like Jesus now has. Good Post  IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

Thanks Gene.

[kerwin]

Irene,

Scripture declares the body that is sown is not the same as the one that is resurrected.   It also states that a natural body is sown and a spiritual body is raised.  Do you believe that Jesus' natural body was sown and his spiritual body rose from the grave in keeping with those two scriptures?

[Author]

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