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And Mikeboll,
You said,
Quote You mean MORE than you do already? That is precisely why I've agreed to your ONE last question. The deal was that it was to be the LAST one. Yet I see a post where you've asked at least five more – not to mention the 30 questions your ONE question has turned into. Yes, Mikeboll, you know I said this question was just 'Question 1'.
It was a simple question but in attempting to avoid answering 'directly' as You demand from others it turned into a stretched and comtorted flurry of posts that resulted in you effectively suggesting that:God could have created the Sinful Corrupt Earthly Flesh and Blood Body (and all) of Jesus from his (you say) Glorious Spiritual Heavenly Body.
And you invite me to agree with you – no thanks!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2012,13:03) I thought you would have been able to figure it out from my “geode” analogy. If scripture said God turned THE GEODE into a son of Abraham, WHY ON EARTH would you assume that God must first have removed the outer, crusty BODY of the geode and turned just the inner crystal (spirit) of the geode into a son of Abraham?
Are you suggesting that a 'Crystal' is like the 'Spirit'?
Does the 'Crystal' give 'Life' to the Stone? Does it animate the stone and give it Intelligence?
What does your Spirit do with regard to your body. Is your Spirit like the lifeless crystal? Maybe?Hi Mikeboll,
You said:Quote You've lost, Toby. The dead (elect) will be raised with spiritual bodies like those of heaven have, because God will not leave us (them) naked in heaven.
What is it that will not be left naked? And is it naked until it is clothed?'Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,22:03) Even if Paul stated what you say, how do you know what a spiritual body is composed of, except it is not flesh and blood.
Kerwin,The question of this thread is whether or not spirit beings, such as angels and Jesus, have bodies in heaven. It seems we agree they do.
Toby………..I love Mike but he is just unable at this time to comprehend this subject. It has to do with all the Past false teachings He was exposed to over many years, IMO. He believes what most everyday ” Christians” have been falsely taught by “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” Teachings. Because they do not understand what Spirit really and simple is, it has complicated their understandings of many scriptures. This goes all the way to Jesus being call “WISDOM” and all kinds of “Personifications” of Spirits as Bodies and Persons and a whole maze of confusing interpretations of scriptures.
I understood that years ago when i Started the topic of what is Spirit in it simplest definition, i thought if we all could come to understand this it would clarify many scriptures for us all. Mike came along and alter the subject to “Do Spirit have BODIES”, which was alright with me becasue that is a issue dealing with the word Spirit also. I ask Him to produce ONE Scripture that used the Word “SPIRIT BODY” in it , he could not produce ONE , so he went to the “SPIRITUAL BODY thing and forced the text to say SPIRIT BODY, as he and others do with many scriptures.
For all it is worth I have said over and over a Spirit is “NOT” a BODY of ANY KIND, It is what is (IN) a BODY of all KINDS (IT) give Cognate Thought to every thing (IT) is IN> Just that simple no need to complicate what a Spirit is at all. This fits all scriptures dealing with the Word Spirits. Spirits are aspects of Beings they come in all kind of types of thought inducing powers, they are broken down into two main types “CLEAN AND UNCLEAN” and “GOOD AND EVIL” they represent Our types and Kinds of KNOWLEDGES we posses, They can be removes from us and added to us which in turn changes they way we think and act.
That is why it say GOD can gives us a New Heart be cause he can simply remove a aspect of our thinking and give us a new one, this causes a transforming of our Mind in the way we think, and act. That is why it says we are “CREATED UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS”, True righteousness is a CREATION it is not acquired by SELF EFFORTS It is a CREATION OF GOD. Spirits themselves are not Beings or BODIES, they are what make UP the LIFE of those Being and BODIES.
Therefore if anyone Lacks spiritual understanding, let him ask GOD and God will give him of His Spirit, and he will begin to think like GOD does and Change to conform to Gods way by the renewing of HIS MIND by the Spirit (INTELLECT) of GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,06:23) Scriptures says that the Spirit is put into the Body made from the dust of the Earth (or from another earthly human female being through pregnancy) and when that occurs the two become a Living Soul.
Show me that scripture.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2012,08:21) That is why it say GOD can gives us a New Heart be cause he can simply remove a aspect of our thinking and give us a new one, this causes a transforming of our Mind in the way we think, and act.
So then “preparing a new heart for us” doesn't necessarily mean that God LITERALLY had to physically remove our old heart and replace that physical heart with a new one, right?This is my point to Toby, Gene. The old heart does not have to be physically removed for God to give us a new heart. Likewise, the spiritual body Jesus had in heaven didn't have to be removed for God to place him within the womb of Mary, where He prepared a flesh body for him to dwell on earth.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,06:34) God could have created the Sinful Corrupt Earthly Flesh and Blood Body (and all) of Jesus from his (you say) Glorious Spiritual Heavenly Body.
Not only could, but did. God created you, Toby – body and all. The sin is inherited from Adam, but God forms each and every one of us in the womb. He is the One who creates us, after all.Isaiah 49:5
And now the LORD says— he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength—Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”Once again, your entire premise is faulty. You assume Jesus didn't have a spirtual body in heaven before being made into a man because you assume God could not have transformed that spiritual body into the seed that developed into the human being, Jesus. You assume that God only placed “the spirit of Jesus” into Mary's womb. WHY?
You know what happens when you assume, right?
Once again, if God transformed a geode into a son of Abraham, He would transform the ENTIRE geode into a son of Abraham. Why you assume that God would first have to remove the outer layer of the geode is beyond me.
MIke…….., Mike , Mike , Mike,
the word “SPIRITUAL BODIES” only means Spirit (INFLUENCED) BODIES It does not mean a “SPIRIT BODY” of any KIND, why becasue Spirits do not have BODIES at all. Can you at least agree with this MIKE> if so we can make some head way here Brother.peace and love…………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2012,08:47) Spirits do not have BODIES at all. Can you at least agree with this MIKE> if so we can make some head way here Brother.
But Gene,You agree that angels DO have bodies, right?
Mike………….Yes i do believe angels have bodies just as we do in fact and they are not “SPIRIT BODIES” either. But physical bodies they can eat with drink with walk around with and can are sustained by life giving spirit (IN) them Just as our bodies are. The difference is theirs never die like ours do. WE are only a “LITTLE BELOW” the angels in this sense, our Bodies can die theirs can't becasue they are continually Spiritual regenerated, our is only regenerated for a set number of times and then ceases to regenerate and we die. But none of that is saying, SPIRITS (ARE) BODIES MIKE. They simply are not, they are what is (IN) Bodies > If you view it this way all scriptures will fit this topic of Spirits and what they are. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………………………gene
Actually Gene,
If I view it the way you do, many scriptures will be adversely affected. Luke 24:37 is one of them.
Unless you think the disciples were seeing an intellect inside someone, then you have to realize that sometimes the word “spirit” refers to a spirit being.
Once you accept this scriptural fact, then certain scriptures will start making more sense to you, Gene. You will then come to understand that angels are ministering spirit [beings]. You will understand that Jesus expelled spirit [beings] from many people.
Hi Mikeboll,
You said:
Quote
Scriptures says that the Spirit is put into the Body made from the dust of the Earth (or from another earthly human female being through pregnancy) and when that occurs the two become a Living Soul.Show me that scripture.
Genesis 2:7 'And the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living Soul'.Genesis 1:28 '…be fruitful and multiply…' (Have many children/Beget Flesh from your Flesh but it is GOD that puts the Spirit into that Flesh begotten from Flesh – it is the Holy Spirit of God that gives the Life to the body hence it is said 'The Spirit goes back to God who gave it' (It does not say 'The Body (and all) goes back to God').
toby
Genesis 2:7 'And the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living Soul'.
we still use that BREATH OF LIVE THOUGH OUR NOSTRILS ,THIS IS THE FIRST THING WE DO WEN WE GET OUT AND COME IN THIS WORLD,
AND ADAM WAS AN DEAD (INANIMATENESS OF HIS SOUL PRIOR TO BE ANIMATED)SOUL BEFORE HE CAME TO BE A LIVING SOUL RIGHT ?YES
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,15:45) Hi Mikeboll, You said:
Quote
Scriptures says that the Spirit is put into the Body made from the dust of the Earth (or from another earthly human female being through pregnancy) and when that occurs the two become a Living Soul.Show me that scripture.
Genesis 2:7 'And the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living Soul'.
Oh, so you are using the way the FIRST MAN was created and applying it to all who have lived since him?Is this the way God created you, Toby?
Mikeboll,
You said to me:
Quote 'You know what happens when you assume, right?' Isn't everything you said to me based on your assumption that Jesus had(?) a Spiritual Body? Notice the number of times you had to modify your assumptions in an attempt to get a handle on some kind of possible realistic stance. So you scoured the Scriptures and found a the only thing that resembled a 'proof'. No, Mikeboll, the Scriptures 'does not say' that God created Sons of Abraham from Stones.
You even said yourself, IF… That, Mikeboll, is called 'Assuming'.
You said to Gene:
Quote This is my point to Toby, Gene. The old heart does not have to be physically removed for God to give us a new heart. Likewise, the spiritual body Jesus had in heaven didn't have to be removed for God to place him within the womb of Mary, where He prepared a flesh body for him to dwell on earth. The word 'Heart' here does not mean the physical organ but 'The feelings of the Mind'.
Mikeboll, this lack of ability to reason is not something I expected from someone such as you.
Mikeboll, you said: 'God didn't have to…'. That means that he 'might NOT have'. Well, what was it – did he or did he not? Did Jesus put it in there himself? Your statement is open (any reason for this?)
I just wrote something on the ground in front of me. Do you know what it was?
You also said to Gene:
Quote … the spiritual body Jesus had in heaven didn't have to be removed for God to place him within the womb of Mary, where He prepared a flesh body for him to dwell on earth. So let's follow this through using your 'assumptions':
1) The Spiritual Body of Jesus (and all) is placed into the Earthly Flesh Body prepared in the Womb of Mary
2) But you also say that it is GOD that created the sinful flesh body making Scriptures a lie (God does not create flawed sinful things. He gave us the ability to create another human Being by the process of 'Procreation'. It is only the enlivening Spirit that is from God but don't dwell on that for the time being)
3) Jesus dies on the Cross (Going by your assumptions: Which part of Jesus died? Remember that you said that the Spiritual Body of Jesus (and all) is in the Flesh Body of Jesus)
4) the flesh body is put in the grave and the Spiritual Body (and all) of Jesus goes back up to Heaven (So Jesus us still alive as he was before. Mikeboll, don't Trinitarians say that Jesus 'Didn't Die' – only his body and his Spirit was still alive in Heaven? (So, now you are part Mormon, part JW and part Trinitarian? And you believe that God created sinful people (by your verse quotes))
5) Three days later the Spiritual Body (and all) of Jesus is put back into the Earthly Flesh body of Jesus and he comes alive again but is somehow changed such that his disciples no longer directly recognise him (I wonder what that change was!)
6) 40 days later Jesus rises up in the air in his Earthly Flesh body which has a Spiritual Body (and all) in it, and enters into a cloud where (according to you) his Earthly Flesh body is transformed into a 'New, Spiritual Body (and all). So Jesus now has a new Spiritual Body within a Spiritual Body which has an 'and all' in it!
Check this carefully – you are saying that Jesus is Now:
– a Spirit
– within a Spiritual Body
– within a new Spiritual Body that was his Flesh bodyPlease correct any of your assumptions as you see fit?
TOBY
Quote 1) The Spiritual Body of Jesus (and all) is placed into the Earthly Flesh Body prepared in the Womb of Mary 1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1Jn 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1Jn 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
1Jn 2:21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.1Jn 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.1Jn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
TOBY
Quote 6) 40 days later Jesus rises up in the air in his Earthly Flesh body which has a Spiritual Body (and all) in it, and enters into a cloud where (according to you) his Earthly Flesh body is transformed into a 'New, Spiritual Body (and all). So Jesus now has a new Spiritual Body within a Spiritual Body which has an 'and all' in it! WEN A METEORITE falls to earth what happen it disintegrate right ?? but it is still all there but in dust particles some can not even been seen by the eyes of men ,this is in reverse to what the case of Christ was wen he was raised ,but tell me how would a earthly body survived in heaven
would it not be exactly a similar result than the one coming into this earth
is this not what the space science shows ???yes
toby
Quote 3) Jesus dies on the Cross (Going by your assumptions: Which part of Jesus died? Remember that you said that the Spiritual Body of Jesus (and all) is in the Flesh Body of Jesus) all what dies in a regular man died ,and as men need the intervention of being resurrected so was Christ and that is what really happen
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,15:56) Isn't everything you said to me based on your assumption that Jesus had(?) a Spiritual Body?
I didn't assume that God gives to each seed a body to His liking – that is in the scriptures.I didn't assume that Jesus now has a new glorious body in heaven – that is also in the scriptures.
I do assume that since Jesus NOW has a spiritual body like those of heaven have, that he also had one when he dwelled in heaven the first time. Why would I assume anything different? Why would Jesus have been the only spirit being dwelling in heaven that didn't have a body?
Toby, I didn't and most likely won't read the rest of the novel you posted. I don't really care if you agree with the rest of us or not.
Either let it go or go talk to Asana about your many ideas in his thread with the same title.
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