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Hi Terraricca,
Do you know what the 'Essence of God' is?
Did God not 'Pour out his Spirit' onto the Disciples at Pentecost?
Terraricca,
I see that you agree with Gene that 'a Spirit is not a Body'.
What do you say that the 'Spirit' is and why does it need a 'Body' in the Spirit Realm?
Mikeboll.
You said that God changed the 'Spiritual Body of Jesus – and all' into 'Jesus, the Man', Body and all.
You do realise that in saying that God changed Jesus 'body and all' into a Man 'body and all' you are describing a manifestation.
– The Spirit made Flesh
– The Invisible made Visible
– The Incorporeal made Corporeal
– The Immaterial made Material
– The Intangible made TangibleMikeboll, the tiny box you have locked yourself in with regard to 'Question 1' will only get smaller the more you try to avoid the obvious flaw in your theory.
Were you really so afraid to do this in a Debate – but feel fully able to do it in open forum? All I wanted was a 'Managed, Point by Point, No Distractions Debate' with you.
Toby………….Forget it Mike is not about to be shown up on this his Pride won't allow it. I doubt if he would ever go for a point by point debate with you. He has dug himself into a hole and can't get out of if , so he just wishes it would all go away. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………gene
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,04:04) Hi Terraricca, Do you know what the 'Essence of God' is?
Did God not 'Pour out his Spirit' onto the Disciples at Pentecost?
tobydid you take the DNA of it
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,16:03) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,17:44) Toby, If a human being's body is turned to ashes their soul, which is spirit in content, descends to Sheol.
The same is true of Lot's wife, since Scripture does not state otherwise.
Hi Kerwin,So you are saying 'No, the Spirit that was in Lot's wife was not turned into a Pillar of salt when her flesh and blood body was.
And that the same Spirit went out of the body (whether of flesh or as Salt) and went to (Sheol) to await judgement day as Scriptures says of the dead (that is – those who are not the Elect because the Elect are already judged righteous).Thank you and well said on this point.
Toby,I am saying what you believe I am.
I disagree with you about the Elect as Sheol has a paradise for them until the Day of Judgement. It is that paradise Jesus spoke to the thief of.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,00:23) You therefore have no direct evidence to support your claim in scripture. On the other hand a soul that has no spiritual or worldly body is naked even though it has a form,
2 Corinthians 5
1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.Kerwin, the question asked of Paul in 1 Cor 15 was, “With what kind of body will the dead be raised?” Paul's answer was, “With a spiritual body like those of heaven have, because flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom.”
There is another here that speculates the “spiritual body” is a flesh body of a “spiritually guided person”. He reckons that Jesus was raised from the dead with this “spiritually guided flesh” body.
But isn't that to say that Jesus' original body was tainted and not spiritually guided or whatever?
Anyway, like I tell this other one, it really and truly doesn't matter to me if you understand “spiritual body like those of heaven have” the same way the rest of us do or not. You are entitled to your opinion.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,00:44) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) If so, WHY? Why would you just assume that God couldn't turn the WHOLE ENTIRE STONE (crusty outside and all) into a son of Abraham?
The point of the verse was not concerning something God could do because clearly God can turn any material matter into Flesh and Blood – but that Flesh and Blood would 'still not have a Spirit' in it. It would still be a 'Dead Body' until a Spirit was put into it: 'God formed the man (Body) from the 'Dust' of the earth and Blew the Breathe of Life (Spirit) into his nostril – and the man became a 'Living' Soul'.
Finally!
Okay, so if God is able to turn ANY material into flesh and blood…………….AND……………God is also able to place anything spirit into flesh and blood, then the question remains: WHY would you assume that God first had to separate Jesus from his spiritual body to produce him again as a human being?
You assume that God “took the spirit out of Jesus” and placed IT in a flesh body. WHY? It seems to me that Jesus HIMSELF was made into the likeness of a human being. (Phil 2) I haven't read where ONLY the SPIRIT of Jesus was placed into flesh, have you?
If God turned YOU into a spirit being, would you be asking what did He first do with your flesh body? Do you assume that God is incapable of transforming your flesh body into a spiritual one?
Enough is enough, Toby. Your question has be sufficiently addressed.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,05:57) Mikeboll. You said that God changed the 'Spiritual Body of Jesus – and all' into 'Jesus, the Man', Body and all.
You do realise that in saying that God changed Jesus 'body and all' into a Man 'body and all' you are describing a manifestation.
Bingo again! Toby, you ARE learning after all!1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:He (Jesus) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2012,08:01) Toby………….Forget it Mike is not about to be shown up on this his Pride won't allow it.
Says the man who agrees with ME that spirit beings such as angels DO have bodies in heaven!
Hi Mikeboll.
Amongs many other incredulous things to me, you said:
Quote He (Jesus) was manifested in the flesh I thought you said that you never read anything about a Spirit being manifested into Flesh? Yet when it suits you, you manage to show it?
Now that you have fallen again into your own trap you can no longer go back.
You know what they say: 'When you are in a hole – stop digging!'
It's amazing that you make up an assumption and then demand an answer to that assumption – and when it is answered – with the strict proviso that the response is based on that assumption – you congratulate them on agreeing with you.
No, Mikeboll, I am not agreeing with you – this is just you trying to force the idea of an agreement because you have nothing to lose – because you have already lost.
You cannot justify how a Spirit is in a body and that Spirit Body is itself a body. Yet you cannot define what a Spirit is!
And for this reason it seems that you refuse to answer the questions I asked you – yet demand I answer every single question you ask – which I did.
When you say I did not answer a question from you I apologise for my oversight (Sometimes I answer one point and forget to come back to the rest) and go back and answer all of them – do you?
I don't mind you being a hypocrite as long as the questions you do answer are with sincerity, truthfulness, and with a view to seeking righteousness towards God's word and testament.
See, I do not 'Demand' answers from you because by refusing to answer you are giving an answer already.
Oh, by the way, no one ever said that God couldn't create flesh and blood out of material matter.
How many times have I quoted or spoken the words 'God created the man from the dust of the earth', yet you make out as if I am admitting something? That is a desperate claim from you.
Please apologise for that remark.
Hi Gene,
Quote Toby………….Forget it Mike is not about to be shown up on this his Pride won't allow it. I doubt if he would ever go for a point by point debate with you. He has dug himself into a hole and can't get out of if , so he just wishes it would all go away. IMO peace and love………………………………………………gene
Yes, it's true.
Notice how he demands everyone answer every single question he asks no matter how circumspect or pointless. Yet he selects only particular things from someone's post to respond to despite any questions in that post to him.
Gene, I don't understand what he is talking about – and he won't explain himself. What does he mean by 'The body of Jesus – and all'?
I have lots to post to him but I would end up flooding the thread and he would then only select a single line to despute and claim he didn't read the rest… A wasted effort then.
By the way, he reads every single word – try making a drliberate recoverable error in a long long post … and you would soon see he spots it…!
Hi Mikeboll.
You said to Kerwin:
Quote 1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Please explain the following:
1 a) What is it that Paul is saying might be 'Destroyed'? What is the 'Earthly Tent'?
1 b) The verse I read says, 'An eternal house From Heaven'. How do you get yours to read otherwise? 'In Heaven' does not make sense!
2 a) Now your rendering puts it right saying 'Clothed WITH the Heavenly Tent'. What is the Heavenly Tent, in your opinion?
2 b) What is it that is to be clothed with a Heavenly Tent?
3) What is it that is 'Naked'?
4) What is it that is Mortal and that is changed to Life?
5) Where in all those verses is there reference to Heavenly Spirit Bodies?
Toby,
Are you saying that IF I'm right, and Jesus DID have a spiritual body in heaven before being made into a human being, that our All-Powerful God is INCAPABLE of transforming Jesus, BODY AND ALL into a man?
YES or NO?
It should by obvious even to you that God is capable of doing anything He wants to do. So the answer must be “NO”.
Your question was based on a faulty premise in the first place, like I said from the start. Your faulty premise is, “IF JESUS HAD A BODY, GOD WOULD HAVE HAD TO DO SOMETHING WITH THAT BODY BEFORE CHANGING JESUS FROM SPIRIT BEING TO HUMAN BEING“.
And I've asked you WHY you would assume such a thing a bunch of times now. The scriptures say JESUS is who was existing in the form of God, and JESUS is who was made into the likeness of a human being. Scripture doesn't say ONLY THE SPIRIT OF JESUS was made into a human being, does it? YES OR NO?
I thought you would have been able to figure it out from my “geode” analogy. If scripture said God turned THE GEODE into a son of Abraham, WHY ON EARTH would you assume that God must first have removed the outer, crusty BODY of the geode and turned just the inner crystal (spirit) of the geode into a son of Abraham?
So once again, are you saying God is INCAPABLE of turning THE ENTIRE GEODE into a son of Abraham? Are you saying that God is INCAPABLE of turning the ENTIRE BEING (spiritual body and all) OF JESUS into a human being? YES or NO?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,19:08) I have lots to post to him but I would end up flooding the thread………
You mean MORE than you do already? That is precisely why I've agreed to your ONE last question. The deal was that it was to be the LAST one. Yet I see a post where you've asked at least five more – not to mention the 30 questions your ONE question has turned into.Toby, I don't particularly care for you. I don't like your attitude. I don't like the way you assert I'm “in a hole” or “cornered myself in a box”, etc. – when nothing could be farther from the truth. And you talk WAY TOO MUCH for my liking. I simply do not like discussing this with you. Your posts bore me, and YOU bore me. Gene's too. And that's why I RARELY read more than 10 or 12 words out of either of your posts. It's the same old tired crap recycled over and over because you can't stand to lose.
You've lost, Toby. The dead (elect) will be raised with spiritual bodies like those of heaven have, because God will not leave us (them) naked in heaven.
And you can't POSSIBLY state that God was INCAPABLE of turning Jesus AND the spiritual body that is a part of Jesus into a human being. End of story, okay?
I'm done with you. You lose, and 30 others here (including your staunchest supporter Gene) agree with me that spirit beings such as angels DO have bodies in heaven. Deal with the defeat, because you're not about to change anyone's mind it seems – least of all mine.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,19:08) By the way, he reads every single word…….
And once again, you are wrong.Mike,
Quote Kerwin, the question asked of Paul in 1 Cor 15 was, “With what kind of body will the dead be raised?” Paul's answer was, “With a spiritual body like those of heaven have, because flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom.” Even if Paul stated what you say, how do you know what a spiritual body is composed of, except it is not flesh and blood.
Quote There is another here that speculates the “spiritual body” is a flesh body of a “spiritually guided person”. He reckons that Jesus was raised from the dead with this “spiritually guided flesh” body. But isn't that to say that Jesus' original body was tainted and not spiritually guided or whatever?
Scripture does state that all creation was subjected to decay. That would include Jesus' mortal body. The body that comes from heaven is not subject to decay but instead exists in the state of things as it was before the Fall.
Is this Scripture true of Jesus? I hold that it is.
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Was his body sown a perishable body after his self sacrifice?
Was his body raised an imperishable body?
Was his body sown in dishonor?
Was it raised in glory?
Was it sown in weakness?
Was it raised in power?
Was it sown a natural body?
Was it raised a spiritual body?Error:
Quote You cannot justify how a Spirit is in a body and that Spirit Body is itself a body. Yet you cannot define what a Spirit is! Should read:
Quote You cannot justify how a Spirit is in a body and that Body is itself a Spirit. Yet you cannot define what a Spirit is! Mikeboll,
You said:Quote Are you saying that IF I'm right, and Jesus DID have a spiritual body in heaven before being made into a human being, that our All-Powerful God is INCAPABLE of transforming Jesus, BODY AND ALL into a man? YES or NO?
I said that you have created false premises and then demanded answers to those false premises. With Strict provisos I answered you as I did. You cannot bring that response to the table as an Agreement without also stating the Strict proviso is in force. What you need to do then is build on your original theory putting 'Flesh' to the 'Spirit' of your false premises (That is: to PROVE the conclusion of your premises are as you claim).
Example: you say:
Premise 1: God 'Could' turn a droplet of Water into a human Being
Premise 2: Jesus' Spiritual Body (and all) is representative of the droplet of water
Conclusion: God 'Could Have' turned Jesus' Spiritual Body (and all) into an Earthly Human BeingWrong!
First off, a droplet of water turned into 'flesh' would be the 'Body' only.Second off, a droplet of water is NOT analogous to a Spirit Being. A droplet of water does not contain a Spirit (Following your false premise of the Body of the Spirit containing a Spirit assuming that was what the 'And All' was meant to be – I note you never showed this!)
Therefore: Your conclusion is false. If any part of any of the premises are FALSE then the Conclusion must be FALSE.
In addition to all this, Scriptures says that 'A Body was prepared FOR him, not, 'His Spiritual Body was changed to a Flesh Body'.
If you think otherwise then produce the Scripture verse or withdraw the statement.Quote It should by obvious even to you that God is capable of doing anything He wants to do. So the answer must be “NO”.
So I guess this explains why God created Adam's body from the 'Dust of the Earth' (An Earthly Body) and then blew the animating Spirit into it, eh?
God 'Can' indeed do as he wants but what God will 'Not' do is what 'You' want God to do to validate your false ideas.
Mikeboll, you are getting close to suggesting something you will regret – can I suggest you stop now on this topic?Quote Your question was based on a faulty premise in the first place, like I said from the start. Your faulty premise is, “IF JESUS HAD A BODY, GOD WOULD HAVE HAD TO DO SOMETHING WITH THAT BODY BEFORE CHANGING JESUS FROM SPIRIT BEING TO HUMAN BEING”.
Mikeboll, once again: I did not make any premises. My opinion is in answer to your premises.Quote And I've asked you WHY you would assume such a thing a bunch of times now.
And I have answered you completely.Quote The scriptures say JESUS is who was existing in the form of God,
Yes, in the form of a 'Spirit'.Quote and JESUS is who was made into the likeness of a human being.
Mikeboll… Scriptures is quite clear on the process by which that was achieved. If you continue with your line of unreasoning then you will be saying that God created the sinful corruptible body of Jesus and therefore Everyone can then say 'I am Sinful because God created me that way'.(Mikeboll, Is it possible that God created the Sinful Corruptible body of Adam just as you say he did with Jesus and therefore the Scriptures is not telling the truth?)
Quote Scripture doesn't say ONLY THE SPIRIT OF JESUS was made into a human being, does it? YES OR NO?
Scriptures does not say that the Spirit of Jesus was made into a Human Being. Scriptures says that the Spirit is put into the Body made from the dust of the Earth (or from another earthly human female being through pregnancy) and when that occurs the two become a Living Soul.Quote I thought you would have been able to figure it out from my “geode” analogy. If scripture said God turned THE GEODE into a son of Abraham, WHY ON EARTH would you assume that God must first have removed the outer, crusty BODY of the geode and turned just the inner crystal (spirit) of the geode into a son of Abraham?
This is nonsense. And I explained what the verse is about. It also does not say that this occurred anyway. Once again you change Scriptures (This is dangerous). If your ideas were valid you would not need to falsify Scriptures, the word of God, to justify your claim.
The purpose of the verse is to show the Jews that they cannot claim to be 'Sons of Abraham' in the Jewish sense just because they were in the lineage of Abraham.
See, They 'are' Sons of Abraham irrespective of whether they do as Abraham did (will you argue against this, too?) so there must be another meaning, but colloquialism, by local meaning.
Therefore, John is saying that it is easier for God to turns lifeless (Without Spirit) stones into 'Sons of Abraham' than for them to claim to be justified 'Sons' of Abraham. It is quite clear that these 'stones' could not be 'Sons' as they would not be from the loins of Abraham (unless they were Gaul Stones, perhaps, which would make Abraham the only MAN who gave birth to children.Quote So once again, are you saying God is INCAPABLE of turning THE ENTIRE GEODE into a son of Abraham? Are you saying that God is INCAPABLE of turning the ENTIRE BEING (spiritual body and all) OF JESUS into a human being? YES or NO?
Mikeboll, what do you mean by 'And All'?Hi Mikeboll,
Quote I'm done with you. You lose, and 30 others here (including your staunchest supporter Gene) agree with me that spirit beings such as angels DO have bodies in heaven. Deal with the defeat, because you're not about to change anyone's mind it seems – least of all mine. Please just answer the question(s) in like manner that you request others answer you.
My 'list of questions' are 'one' question all related to the points (plural) that you made. You are avoiding answering single point questions put to you and as such the range of additional aspects create more questions that need answering by You.
See that I have answered virtually every single question you asked – just as you asked. The only question NOT answered so far is one where I sought clarification which you refused, or ignored, to clarify.
Will you then later claim that I did not answer you on that question when it is you who did not provide the clarification that would have enabled me to answer:
“What do you mean by And All, in the sentence, 'God changed the Spiritual Body of Jesus, and all, into an Earthly Body, and all'. “
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