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I stand corrected. I should have have said “YOU, (and sometimes Shimmer) are the only ones here that believe like you do.”
And it should have been obvious from my post that I was speaking of people who have commented here – not the world as a whole.
I am curious as to why you didn't add Istari to your ranks. Oh, I know……………..
Mike……….YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I, IT SAY (GOD) CREATES HIS ANGELS SPIRITS. That statement is not saying that the Angels themselves are Spirits at all. but GOD makes or creates the Spirit that he places (IN) them and sends them our to minister his will.
Again if you understood what Spirit is you could easily understand that and find it fits all of scriptures speaking about spirits and none of them say a Spirit is a BODY of ANY KIND, no matter what you false teach. You can't even find the Words “SPIRIT BODY” in all the bible. Toby and i both are right on this you stand alone and your Co-hart with you , who you have also decieved.
Mike fact is Toby has victory over you becasue you failed to answer his questions about getting specific on the issue with him and you coped out on him. You make all you claims but produce little real supports to your challenges, then you start to ridiculing and belittling then change subject matter then just ignore the person, as if you are right and in truth you have no credible support what soever for what you are saying.
You said a long time ago you go by hints of things to put your dogmas together and i agree with that but those hints and many different definition about things never makes for sound teachings , those are just assumption on your part and nothing more. IMO
gene
Mike………..Istari , and Toby and I and Shimmer , all have a better understanding about What a Spirit is then you even begin to IMO. O and by the way who is agreeing with you on this I haven't seen anyone other then yourself, O and you Co-hart Pierre, and i even think He beginning to get a little taken back by you and your assumptions and “hints” of what is said in Gods word as doctrines.
peace and love……………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 10 2012,06:57) kerwin 26:5 “The dead 9 tremble 10 –
those beneath the waters
and all that live in them. 11
26:6 The underworld 12 is naked before God; 13
the place of destruction lies uncovered. 14
26:7 He spreads out the northern skies 15 over empty space; 16
he suspends the earth on nothing. 17
26:8 He locks the waters in his clouds,
and the clouds do not burst with the weight of them.this does support the fact that our souls are not dying before the judgment
I am trapped and cannot get free. 16
88:9 My eyes grow weak because of oppression.
I call out to you, O Lord, all day long;
I spread out my hands in prayer to you. 17
88:10 Do you accomplish amazing things for the dead?
Do the departed spirits 18 rise up and give you thanks? (Selah)
88:11 Is your loyal love proclaimed in the grave,
or your faithfulness in the place of the dead?8:14 O Lord, why do you reject me,
and pay no attention to me? 23
88:15 I am oppressed and have been on the verge of death since my youth. 24
I have been subjected to your horrors and am numb with pain. 25
88:16 Your anger overwhelms me; 26
your terrors destroy me.
88:17 They surround me like water all day long;
they join forces and encircle me. 27
88:18 You cause my friends and neighbors to keep their distance; 28
those who know me leave me alone in the darkness. 29
Psalm 89 189:3 The Lord said, 7
“I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have made a promise on oath to David, my servant:
89:4 ‘I will give you an eternal dynasty 8
and establish your throne throughout future generations.’” 9 (Selah)
89:5 O Lord, the heavens 10 praise your amazing deeds,
as well as your faithfulness in the angelic assembly. 11
89:6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings, 12
89:7 a God who is honored 13 in the great angelic assembly, 14
and more awesome than 15 all who surround him?those scriptures do not support your view of ghost
Pierre,I do not know what you think my views of ghosts are but those passages assume they exist. You, yourself believe in Sheol where the vast majority of ghosts dwell. The disciples obviously believed in free roaming ghosts they were afraid of.
Kerwin……………Once a man dies his two components, a Body and a Spirit split the Spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place and the body goes to the grave (Sheol) and corrupts back to dust or ashes. as it is said dust to dust and ashes to ashes, there is no more a SOUL in existence you are simply gone for ever and unless you attain to a Resurrection from the state of the being dead you would remain that way for ever, and if God left us in that state we would never again exist. It is absolutely crucial we obtain to the resurrection to ever again exist as a “LIVING SOUL” this held true for Jesus also .he had to be resurected with a body from the dead state he was in or he still would have been dead , but God did not leave him in that state and resurected his body and added back his spirit into it and Jessu became a “LIVING SOUL once again thanks be to GOD the Father and his power to bring again back to life our LIVING Souls by us obtaining to the resurrection that “witness the redemptions of our bodies”, why does it say “BODY” because that is what perished when we died, our spirit did not (IT) went back to God who gave them in the first place.
Kerwin there are no Ghost or apparitions or shades or neither world beings going around scaring or habituating with people Where is there any proof that any disciple actually saw a Ghost there is none , no matter what they “THOUGHT” the saw there simply was none. They saw a real live person as it all proved out to be right? That is what Mike does He uses the words where the disciples “THOUGHT” they saw a “Spirit or Ghost” as his ONLY PROOF TEXT and then insisted becasue what some disciples “THOUGHT they SAW as meaning there really exist such a thing. There is a Spirit realm i am not saying there is not but spirits must be attached to a substance or body to be a LIVING
SOUL. God is Spirit and lives in and through His creation He is (IN) it , he is (IT) Life , that God may be (IN) “ALL” and (THROUGH) “ALL” This is the way i now see it brother.peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2012,21:02) Mike fact is Toby has victory over you……………..
So then you agree with him that angels DON'T have bodies?Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2012,22:07) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 10 2012,06:57) kerwin 26:5 “The dead 9 tremble 10 –
those beneath the waters
and all that live in them. 11
26:6 The underworld 12 is naked before God; 13
the place of destruction lies uncovered. 14
26:7 He spreads out the northern skies 15 over empty space; 16
he suspends the earth on nothing. 17
26:8 He locks the waters in his clouds,
and the clouds do not burst with the weight of them.this does support the fact that our souls are not dying before the judgment
I am trapped and cannot get free. 16
88:9 My eyes grow weak because of oppression.
I call out to you, O Lord, all day long;
I spread out my hands in prayer to you. 17
88:10 Do you accomplish amazing things for the dead?
Do the departed spirits 18 rise up and give you thanks? (Selah)
88:11 Is your loyal love proclaimed in the grave,
or your faithfulness in the place of the dead?8:14 O Lord, why do you reject me,
and pay no attention to me? 23
88:15 I am oppressed and have been on the verge of death since my youth. 24
I have been subjected to your horrors and am numb with pain. 25
88:16 Your anger overwhelms me; 26
your terrors destroy me.
88:17 They surround me like water all day long;
they join forces and encircle me. 27
88:18 You cause my friends and neighbors to keep their distance; 28
those who know me leave me alone in the darkness. 29
Psalm 89 189:3 The Lord said, 7
“I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have made a promise on oath to David, my servant:
89:4 ‘I will give you an eternal dynasty 8
and establish your throne throughout future generations.’” 9 (Selah)
89:5 O Lord, the heavens 10 praise your amazing deeds,
as well as your faithfulness in the angelic assembly. 11
89:6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings, 12
89:7 a God who is honored 13 in the great angelic assembly, 14
and more awesome than 15 all who surround him?those scriptures do not support your view of ghost
Pierre,I do not know what you think my views of ghosts are but those passages assume they exist. You, yourself believe in Sheol where the vast majority of ghosts dwell. The disciples obviously believed in free roaming ghosts they were afraid of.
KERWINmany people believe in ghosts but are those real
many believe in ufo and believe in little green man,could ghost mean reflection of a dream not a reality
just like a wish full desire ??
Hi Terraricca,
You said:
Quote
you never answer my question ;;tobyspirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits ??(i mean actions)
I don't understand your question. It's not even a question that requires an answer as far as I can see.
At no time have I ever said that an Angel or God were not Spirits. In fact I have said over and over that they are such.
Are you asking me – or Gene?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 11 2012,14:12) Hi Terraricca, You said:
Quote
you never answer my question ;;tobyspirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits ??(i mean actions)
I don't understand your question. It's not even a question that requires an answer as far as I can see.
At no time have I ever said that an Angel or God were not Spirits. In fact I have said over and over that they are such.
Are you asking me – or Gene?
Hi Mikeboll.
Let me first apologise for the long post below but it is only in response to your own.You said:
Quote Toby, I already told Pierre in a pm that it wouldn't take long before you started claiming victory.
I did not claim a victory but merely stated a fact. Perhaps you were too eagerly 'Looking' for what you expected – and couldn't resist posting the false allegation despite not seeing what you expected.
Quote Listen very closely: YOU, and YOU ALONE, believe that angels don't have spiritual bodies. EVERYONE else who has commented on this thread understands it the same way Pierre and I do – that spiritual beings have spiritual bodies. I note that you only mentioned 'Angels' here. Yet there is not a single Scripture that says an 'Angel' has a 'Spiritual Body'.
Quote Do you think that 30 or more of us all got together with evil intent to falsify scriptures and try to make them come out against you? Have you never heard of the tale of the Emporer's new clothes?
Quote Did you ever wonder why you are alone on this thread with your belief that angels are bodiless? Have you considered that maybe you're just not understanding the scriptural words that have the rest of us convinced of our belief? Even your staunchest supporter Gene believes angels have bodies. (He just likes to side with ANYONE who is against Pierre and myself – whether or not he even agrees with that person.) No – Never.
Quote You've made an implication of deceptive intent against us. For the record, my only intent is to believe the words of scripture. And here's how those words go, as I understand them: How many times have you had to change your doctrine, even redefining words and terms and misquoting me (even in this post where you said I was claiming a victory)
Quote Q. With what kind of BODIES will the dead be raised? A. With spiritual bodies like those of heaven have, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Cor 15)
This is your personal compilation because there is no Scripture that says 'Spiritual Bodies like those of Heaven have'.
And, 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God' has nothing to do with 'Flesh and Blood' of the body – but 'Sin'. You may have quoted the part of the verse but it can be seen that your intent is to make the universal error of thinking 'Inherit' means the same as 'Enter'.
Write sentences using aternately 'Inherit' and 'Enter' where the meaning is the same. Don't force the meaning – just everyday sentences. This isn't a point to dwell on but merely a misunderstood verse by those in ignorance – and surely you don't want to continue in ignorance once you have been shown the error of your misinterpretation!Quote Q. Will God leave us naked in heaven? A. No. God will NOT leave us naked, but will give us a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent we left behind. (2 Cor 5)
This verse speaks of Mankind in whom the Spirit is embodied in a body of Flesh. When the person (Body and Spirit: the Soul) dies, that is, their Spirit is separated out of the body (…!!) the body starts to decay back to dust of the earth – the Spirit goes back to God – how? It flows like the wind (No quote, just supposition) because it is no longer contained, constrained… Like a gas loosed from a constraining vessel.
Quote Q. How about Jesus? Does HE have a body now? A. Yes, and I long for the day that my own lowly body is transformed into the kind of glorious body he now has. (Phil 3)
That is a noble desire but I think it is for God to make that judgement.
Quote This is what the scriptures teach me, Toby. If you find fault with those scriptures, or come to a different interpretation of them, you have the free will to explore other options and interpretations. But it is wrong of you to imply that our intent is malicious or deceptive just because you don't understand those scriptures like the rest of us do. I have no problem with the Scriptures – just your constant misinterpretation of them.
You very well know that if you were to walk a straight line with what Scriptures says concerning this topic, you would not be able to sustain yourself in this thread.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 10 2012,13:25) You very well know that if you were to walk a straight line with what Scriptures says concerning this topic, you would not be able to sustain yourself in this thread.
There you go with the accusations again. Shouldn't you be applying your comment above to over 30 people who have visited this thread – instead of just to me? Are all 30 of us purposely twisting the scriptures and making the path crooked for you?You mention me changing doctrines. When? I started off believing that spirit beings such as angels and Jesus have bodies. I still believe that.
I did change my understanding about Jesus being raised from the dead as a spirit being. I no longer think that. But other than that, I still picture angels in heaven exactly as the Bible portrays them – complete with wings.
As for the understandings of certain scriptures that I posted, your responses are laughable at best. For example, 2 Cor 5 clearly states that God will not leave us naked, but will give us a spiritual tent to replace our earthly one. Yet you blew right over that part. You said “like gas loosed from a constraining vessel”. Okay, but only if God gave that gas a spiritual constraining vessel to replace the one it was loosed from.
Toby, all of your rebuttals are equally lame. I just don't have the interest in showing you this stuff over and over again due to the fact that you're pig-headed.
Mikeboll,
Please can you see here what Gene says:Quote ……………Once a man dies his two components, a Body and a Spirit split the Spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place and the body goes to the grave (Sheol) and corrupts back to dust or ashes. as it is said dust to dust and ashes to ashes, there is no more a SOUL in existence you are simply gone for ever and unless you attain to a Resurrection from the state of the being dead you would remain that way for ever, and if God left us in that state we would never again exist. It is absolutely crucial we obtain to the resurrection to ever again exist as a “LIVING SOUL” this held true for Jesus also .he had to be resurected with a body from the dead state he was in or he still would have been dead , but God did not leave him in that state and resurected his body and added back his spirit into it and Jessu became a “LIVING SOUL once again thanks be to GOD the Father and his power to bring again back to life our LIVING Souls by us obtaining to the resurrection that “witness the redemptions of our bodies”, why does it say “BODY” because that is what perished when we died, our spirit did not (IT) went back to God who gave them in the first place. Apart from one minor discrepancy, is there anything that you can see with what Gene says here?
No Toby. I didn't read Gene's post. In fact, I very rarely read Gene's posts. I usually skim them quickly, pick a sentence out, and respond to it.
I do the same with you and all others who insist on posting novels.
Why? Did it have anything at all to do with the topic of this thread, which is whether or not spirit beings such as angels and Jesus have bodies in heaven?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,07:39) You mention me changing doctrines. When? I started off believing that spirit beings such as angels and Jesus have bodies. I still believe that. I did change my understanding about Jesus being raised from the dead as a spirit being. I no longer think that. But other than that, I still picture angels in heaven exactly as the Bible portrays them – complete with wings.
OK. My apologies Mikeboll.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,07:44) I usually skim them quickly, pick a sentence out, and respond to it. I do the same with you and all others who insist on posting novels.
Oh well thank you for explaining!Gene,
I have no idea where you get the idea Sheol is the place the body rests. Take a look at what Jesus taught about Sheol in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do you believe Jesus was endorsing a false teaching? If you do not then you admit that Sheol is the land of departed spirits. You already admit that you believe in departed spirits.
Never the less my question was “do departed spirits have bodies?”
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,15:51) Gene, I have no idea where you get the idea Sheol is the place the body rests. Take a look at what Jesus taught about Sheol in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do you believe Jesus was endorsing a false teaching? If you do not then you admit that Sheol is the land of departed spirits. You already admit that you believe in departed spirits.
Never the less my question was “do departed spirits have bodies?”
kerwinI was under the impression that the grave (sheol,hades) is were our body is return to the dust were he was taken from ,
but I can be wrong
?Pierre,
Quote KERWIN many people believe in ghosts but are those real many believe in ufo and believe in little green man,
could ghost mean reflection of a dream not a reality
just like a wish full desire ??
I know that it is currently a skeptical age but those who follow Jesus do not follow teachings of the word. If you believe that a spirit of a man exists separate from a man’s body then you believe in ghosts; as that is all a ghost is. Ghosts are real and their land is Sheol.
The question is; “are there any ghosts outside of Sheol?”
Scripture demonstrates the disciples believed there were and that Jesus did not discourage that belief. Jesus not only did not discourage it but acknowledged it by making a case why he was not a ghost.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 11 2012,04:09) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,15:51) Gene, I have no idea where you get the idea Sheol is the place the body rests. Take a look at what Jesus taught about Sheol in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do you believe Jesus was endorsing a false teaching? If you do not then you admit that Sheol is the land of departed spirits. You already admit that you believe in departed spirits.
Never the less my question was “do departed spirits have bodies?”
kerwinI was under the impression that the grave (sheol,hades) id were our body is return to the dust were he was taken from ,
but I can be wrong
?
Pierre,The book of Enoch speaks of Sheol; though its description is not the same as Jesus' in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Here is where Scripture speaks of a man's soul being brought up from Sheol.
Psalm 30:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from [a]Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.Footnotes:
a} Psalm 30:3 I.e. the nether world
b} Psalm 30:3 Some mss read from among those who go downHere we are told God will not abandon a man's soul to Sheol.
Psalm 16:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 For You will not abandon my soul to [a]Sheol;
Nor will You allow Your [c]Holy One to [d]undergo decay.
Footnotes:Psalm 16:10 I.e. the nether world
Psalm 16:10 Lit give
Psalm 16:10 Or godly one
Psalm 16:10 Or see corruption or the pitA soul not encased in flesh and bone is a ghost.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,17:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 11 2012,04:09) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,15:51) Gene, I have no idea where you get the idea Sheol is the place the body rests. Take a look at what Jesus taught about Sheol in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Do you believe Jesus was endorsing a false teaching? If you do not then you admit that Sheol is the land of departed spirits. You already admit that you believe in departed spirits.
Never the less my question was “do departed spirits have bodies?”
kerwinI was under the impression that the grave (sheol,hades) id were our body is return to the dust were he was taken from ,
but I can be wrong
?
Pierre,The book of Enoch speaks of Sheol; though its description is not the same as Jesus' in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Here is where Scripture speaks of a man's soul being brought up from Sheol.
Psalm 30:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from [a]Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.Footnotes:
a} Psalm 30:3 I.e. the nether world
b} Psalm 30:3 Some mss read from among those who go downHere we are told God will not abandon a man's soul to Sheol.
Psalm 16:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 For You will not abandon my soul to [a]Sheol;
Nor will You allow Your [c]Holy One to [d]undergo decay.
Footnotes:Psalm 16:10 I.e. the nether world
Psalm 16:10 Lit give
Psalm 16:10 Or godly one
Psalm 16:10 Or see corruption or the pitA soul not encased in flesh and bone is a ghost.
Kerwinthat is for Christ not for others except those he calls
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