- This topic has 5,411 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,07:41) toby spirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits
??
Terraricca.I have come to know you as a person who strives for truth and righteousness.
In order to have a successful dialogue, there needs to be consensus on the meanings and definitions of the pertinent things that are discussed between the discussers.
Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body' from.
I have showed my definition multiple times already. How can we reach a settlement when you refuse (as far as I can see) to show how you are defining the most important elements of this topic?
Please just show your definition of 'Body' and 'Spirit' as regards this discussion, and the credible agreeable common source that you get it from.
Thank you.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 09 2012,15:37) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,07:41) toby spirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits
??
Terraricca.I have come to know you as a person who strives for truth and righteousness.
In order to have a successful dialogue, there needs to be consensus on the meanings and definitions of the pertinent things that are discussed between the discussers.
Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body' from.
I have showed my definition multiple times already. How can we reach a settlement when you refuse (as far as I can see) to show how you are defining the most important elements of this topic?
Please just show your definition of 'Body' and 'Spirit' as regards this discussion, and the credible agreeable common source that you get it from.
Thank you.
tobylet go ,and answer my question,
I have already explain what my version of a form or body his
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,22:25) Mike………..The word Spirit has nothing to do with anything that can be see or has substance of any kind.
Gene,What's the definition of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37? What did the disciples think they were SEEING? How did Jesus answer them? Did he say, “You can't SEE spirits!”? Nope. He only pointed out what Paul also taught – that spirit beings do not consist of flesh, bone, and blood, but have spiritual bodies.
Jesus didn't say anything at all about spirits not being seen. And we know from scripture that many spirits were seen by humans. What about the shepherds in Luke 2:13? What were they seeing?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,08:54) Quote (toby @ Mar. 09 2012,15:37) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,07:41) toby spirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits
??
Terraricca.I have come to know you as a person who strives for truth and righteousness.
In order to have a successful dialogue, there needs to be consensus on the meanings and definitions of the pertinent things that are discussed between the discussers.
Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body' from.
I have showed my definition multiple times already. How can we reach a settlement when you refuse (as far as I can see) to show how you are defining the most important elements of this topic?
Please just show your definition of 'Body' and 'Spirit' as regards this discussion, and the credible agreeable common source that you get it from.
Thank you.
tobylet go ,and answer my question,
I have already explain what my version of a form or body his
Terraricca.What question are you asking to be answered and what is your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body'.
An honest, forthright, truthful and sincere man would not be afraid to show from what source and the body of his thought when asked to.
Terraricca, are you refusing to say what your definition from a credible source of 'Spirit' and 'Body' are?
Make it clear – please don't ask pointless questions.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2012,09:13) Toby, I don't really care if you agree with me or not. I really and truly don't.
Take care
Mikeboll,
This is excellent.Do you know I said to someone that you would say exactly that!
Do as you please – but be truthful, honest and sincere – and you will do well.
Take care.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 09 2012,17:35) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,08:54) Quote (toby @ Mar. 09 2012,15:37) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,07:41) toby spirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits
??
Terraricca.I have come to know you as a person who strives for truth and righteousness.
In order to have a successful dialogue, there needs to be consensus on the meanings and definitions of the pertinent things that are discussed between the discussers.
Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body' from.
I have showed my definition multiple times already. How can we reach a settlement when you refuse (as far as I can see) to show how you are defining the most important elements of this topic?
Please just show your definition of 'Body' and 'Spirit' as regards this discussion, and the credible agreeable common source that you get it from.
Thank you.
tobylet go ,and answer my question,
I have already explain what my version of a form or body his
Terraricca.What question are you asking to be answered and what is your definition of 'Spirit' and 'Body'.
An honest, forthright, truthful and sincere man would not be afraid to show from what source and the body of his thought when asked to.
Terraricca, are you refusing to say what your definition from a credible source of 'Spirit' and 'Body' are?
Make it clear – please don't ask pointless questions.
tobydito for me to what Mike has so nicely put
Toby………See the problem , neither Terricca nor Mike have answered your questions. They simply ignore them hoping you will go away. That is their way of saying they simply can not answer them, becasue they have no scripture support for their dogmas they falsely teach. And while you say Pierre is a seeker of truth that is not true becasue he will never answer any question or Scripture DIRECTLY put to him, but will post others to try to detracts from it. Like where i Posted what a “LIVING SOUL” was WORD FOR WORD, and instead of using that scripture and honing in on it he simple detracts by coming up with other scriptures and even those scriptures did not disagree with what i was saying and them says he is right you are wrong. Don't kid yourself about the sincerity of Mike or his Co-hart Pierre, there goal her is to be right not about the truth of God word. IMO
My hope is that you don't get discouraged by the two and their ignorant and accusing remarks of the brethren they are so good at. Just remember “PRIDE GOES BEFORE A FALL”
Mike or his co-hart have not produced one scripture that say a Spirit (IS) a “BODY” of any kind. No one have ever see a Spirit of any kind at all, GOD who Jesus said is Spirit have never been seen either according to scriptures.
The only thin i can say as witness of what i have seen was when i was severely sick once and at the point of death and acknowledge that God was going to let me die, on my death bed, and said to him that “i believer you was going to let me die now”. That a object that had the appearance of a oblique shaped rope about the diameter of one and a half foot circle was slowly spinning the hight of a human head came through my bedroom door and made a right turn and advances toward me and stopped over my head and then reverse it self and left exactly the way it came in and went out the door, and i was instantly head . It looked exactly like WATER in appearance. This is the only thing that i have ever saw but i saw no body at all and i believe that that was done to give me a sign of GOD Hearing me. But had nothing to do with a Spirit having a body of any type but just a sign of God hearing me and coming to my aid.
Mike is drenched in Metaphysical thinking like some many “religious people ” ARE He believe like most that Spirits are people with Spirit BODIES of their own like satans and demons as individuals rather them mental make up of a persons mind, Like clean and Unclean Spirits are and wisdom and the spirit Love and Hate he thinks these are actually Bodies of beings Like where is say Wisdom is a She He really believes that wisdom is a being of some kind, His Co-hart thinks that wisdom is Jesus and on and on it goes, They just can't understand that these are just aspects of Spirits, (INTELLECTS) that can be (IN) anyone at any time>
Any way Toby hop you don't get discouraged by the two, we need more sound teachers here to post and true seekers of the true words of GOD .
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene.
Thanks for the support and advice, but I don't think I am under any illusion concerning the intent of either Mikeboll or Terraricca.
It was obvious that they were getting themselves in a tangle and were frustrated by all the deceptions of words and false ideas they had created.
At no point were they willing to honestly define the words and terms that were the pinnacle essencs in the body of this discussion.
In no case was the word or term 'Body' applicable to a Spirit, and is never ever used in Scriptures pertaining to a Spirit except in two cases:
The first is in symbolic terms such as in the books of Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation. If someone wants to argue the point then they also need to explain how Angels seen by others are never described in the same way – among several other differences.
The second, is related to Angels seen by mankind 'in the form' of Man. The Angels ('messenging' Spirits) are always 'mistaken' for human beings. These Spirits appear from no where, and disappear to no one knows where (Scriptures mostly says they were in Heaven and we're sent by God, and more often speak the words of God as if they were God himself – as in the Burning bush incident with Moses – which shows the Spirit as 'flames' in a bush, that did not even scorch the bush). This says that a Spirit has no 'form' of a physical nature, and so can manifest a form as required for the situation. For instance, why would a formless being not desire to appear in the form of the being that it wishes to address – namely, another human being.
I could go on and on – but I think the point is made even from this little amount.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,02:25) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2012,14:16) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 08 2012,09:27) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2012,21:08) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 08 2012,09:03) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2012,20:56) Pierre, Quote KERWIN was not Christ a departed soul (spirit)?
so I show you in his action what can be done
Jesus was not a shade after his resurrection though he was during his time in Hades. Acts 1:3 and Luke 24:39 bear witness of this.
Acts 1
New International Version (NIV)3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.
Luke 24:39
New International Version (NIV)39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
KMk 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them
Pierre,I added scriptures to demonstrate what I meant.
Him appearing in a different form in interesting for other reasons.
Kplease rephrase you question i can not grip the meaning of it
while your scriptures you quoted like Is 88; is more related to Christ
Pierre,After his resurrection Jesus presented evidence he was alive and not a departed spirit. We call a departed spirit a ghost.
Kyou believe in ghost ??
Pierre,Whether or not I do we know that the disciples of Jesus did or they would not of thought Jesus was a ghost when they saw him walking on water.
Matthew 14:26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out [a]in fear.
Footnotes:Matthew 14:26 Lit from
Many Scripture passages mention shades and shades are ghosts. Here are some.
Job 26:5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Greatness of God
5 “The [a]departed spirits tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Footnotes:Job 26:5 Or shades; Heb Rephaim
Psalm 88:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 Will You perform wonders for the dead?
Will the [a]departed spirits rise and praise You?
Selah.
Footnotes:Psalm 88:10 Or ghosts, shades
Isaiah 26:14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 The dead will not live, the [a]departed spirits will not rise;
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Footnotes:Isaiah 26:14 Or shades
Isaiah 26:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 Your dead will live;
[a]Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will [c]give birth to the [d]departed spirits.
Footnotes:Isaiah 26:19 So with some ancient versions; Heb My
Isaiah 26:19 Lit lights
Isaiah 26:19 Lit cause to fall
Isaiah 26:19 Or shadeskerwin
26:5 “The dead 9 tremble 10 –
those beneath the waters
and all that live in them. 11
26:6 The underworld 12 is naked before God; 13
the place of destruction lies uncovered. 14
26:7 He spreads out the northern skies 15 over empty space; 16
he suspends the earth on nothing. 17
26:8 He locks the waters in his clouds,
and the clouds do not burst with the weight of them.this does support the fact that our souls are not dying before the judgment
I am trapped and cannot get free. 16
88:9 My eyes grow weak because of oppression.
I call out to you, O Lord, all day long;
I spread out my hands in prayer to you. 17
88:10 Do you accomplish amazing things for the dead?
Do the departed spirits 18 rise up and give you thanks? (Selah)
88:11 Is your loyal love proclaimed in the grave,
or your faithfulness in the place of the dead?8:14 O Lord, why do you reject me,
and pay no attention to me? 23
88:15 I am oppressed and have been on the verge of death since my youth. 24
I have been subjected to your horrors and am numb with pain. 25
88:16 Your anger overwhelms me; 26
your terrors destroy me.
88:17 They surround me like water all day long;
they join forces and encircle me. 27
88:18 You cause my friends and neighbors to keep their distance; 28
those who know me leave me alone in the darkness. 29
Psalm 89 189:3 The Lord said, 7
“I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have made a promise on oath to David, my servant:
89:4 ‘I will give you an eternal dynasty 8
and establish your throne throughout future generations.’” 9 (Selah)
89:5 O Lord, the heavens 10 praise your amazing deeds,
as well as your faithfulness in the angelic assembly. 11
89:6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings, 12
89:7 a God who is honored 13 in the great angelic assembly, 14
and more awesome than 15 all who surround him?those scriptures do not support your view of ghost
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 09 2012,13:41) Mike you where totally right it took only a few hours,:D
Yeah,We knew it wouldn't take long. But that's only because we've been through this before, right? The user name is the only difference.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2012,08:30) Toby………See the problem , neither Terricca nor Mike have answered your questions.
Gene,Do angels have bodies? See, Toby is the one trying to convince the 30 of us who think they DO that they DON'T.
Yet, in your messed up mind, we're the “false teachers”.
Gene, did you consider that since YOU believe that angels have bodies, YOU are part of the ones you're calling false teachers?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 09 2012,13:36) Hi Gene. Thanks for the support and advice, but I don't think I am under any illusion concerning the intent of either Mikeboll or Terraricca.
It was obvious that they were getting themselves in a tangle and were frustrated by all the deceptions of words and false ideas they had created.
Toby,I already told Pierre in a pm that it wouldn't take long before you started claiming victory.
Listen very closely: YOU, and YOU ALONE, believe that angels don't have spiritual bodies. EVERYONE else who has commented on this thread understands it the same way Pierre and I do – that spiritual beings have spiritual bodies.
Do you think that 30 or more of us all got together with evil intent to falsify scriptures and try to make them come out against you?
Did you ever wonder why you are alone on this thread with your belief that angels are bodiless? Have you considered that maybe you're just not understanding the scriptural words that have the rest of us convinced of our belief? Even your staunchest supporter Gene believes angels have bodies. (He just likes to side with ANYONE who is against Pierre and myself – whether or not he even agrees with that person.)
You've made an implication of deceptive intent against us. For the record, my only intent is to believe the words of scripture. And here's how those words go, as I understand them:
Q. With what kind of BODIES will the dead be raised?
A. With spiritual bodies like those of heaven have, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Cor 15)
Q. Will God leave us naked in heaven?
A. No. God will NOT leave us naked, but will give us a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent we left behind. (2 Cor 5)
Q. How about Jesus? Does HE have a body now?
A. Yes, and I long for the day that my own lowly body is transformed into the kind of glorious body he now has. (Phil 3)
This is what the scriptures teach me, Toby. If you find fault with those scriptures, or come to a different interpretation of them, you have the free will to explore other options and interpretations. But it is wrong of you to imply that our intent is malicious or deceptive just because you don't understand those scriptures like the rest of us do.
toby
you never answer my question ;;toby
spirit (angel,God) what are they beside being spirits ??(i mean actions)
Mike………..No i am not, because I don't think angel ARE SPIRITS at all, but I believe Angels are Just like we are with bodies of their own and GOD makes their Spirits and put it (IN) them, just as he does all creation that has life. Scripture say God give everything a BODY JUST as HE CHOSES and there is no record of a “SPIRIT BODY” in any scripture.
I believe the only difference between their bodies and ours is their Bodies can not die, while ours can, Their bodies are spirituality Sustained but they are not SPIRIT BODIES at all, because Spirits are simply NOT Bodies of any kind. Spirit are what is (IN) Bodies . My definition of Spirit is simple, I don't have “MANY' different definition of what Spirit (IS) as you do.
Spirit to me Mike is simply in it “simplest” form is (INTELLECTS). That are (IN) us all they come in all (KINDS) like clean and unclean, and (TYPES) like the spirit of wisdom, or adversarial spirits and they all give us our “cognate abilities” . Therefore as it says, we need to learn to try the “SPIRITS” to see if “THEY” are of GOD, non of these are “BODIES” of any kind , they are spirit working in the mind causing what people are speaking and those who have the SPIRIT of TRUTH (IN) THEM can JUDGE the SPIRITS coming out of their Mouths through there word what are Spirits.
Just as Jesus said the “WORDS” I am speaking (ARE) Spirit and (ARE) LIFE> Just that simple no Bodies even mention their by Jesus. Words are derived from Spirits (IN) us and when spoken are (intelligent utterances) they (ARE) LIFE as we Perceive (IT), THEY ARE NOT BODIES OF ANY KIND AT ALL never were and never will be. Just that simple Mike no “MYSTERY RELIGION” Need to confuse the truth> IMO
This is beyond a doubt the most important subject that need to be understood to clear much of the confusions that has found there way in to true Christianity. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2012,20:28) ke………..No i am not, because I don't think angel ARE SPIRITS at all,
Gene,I can't be responsible for you deciding not to believe the scripture that says angels are ministering spirits.
The question of this thread, (re-worded for you and your disbelief of scripture), is whether or not angels have bodies.
You say yes, along with the rest of us. And Toby says no.
The bottom line is that you agree with ME on the question of this thread Gene, and not Toby.
I'll bet that sticks in your craw.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2012,14:33) Listen very closely: YOU, and YOU ALONE, believe that angels don't have spiritual bodies.
FALSE.Most of Christianity agrees with Toby, that Spirit is incorporeal. So that is a lie that you just said.
The only REASON that the people here believe as you do – that Angels and God has a Body and Form is Because YOU have started this thread… And led others to believe you!
Did you not read my post on the Preexistance thread?
No, obviously not. Peoples faith is what really matters.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
