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Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2012,19:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,18:51) What angel ever came in the flesh? 
Scripture?
Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Ge 18:3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.
Ge 18:4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
Ge 18:5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”Ge 18:33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Ge 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
I didn't see the word “flesh” in there, Pierre. Could you point it out for me?T8………This is a very important subject to understand , Because it brings many scriptures into proper focus and clears some of the confusion in religion. To me Spirit is ONE THING and the PHYSICAL or “BODY” is quite another. Spirits do exist and are never Bodies of any type of Kind. God made Bodies For Spirits to INDWELL and Hence the combined Physical Body with Spirit ADDED becomes a LIVING SOUL.
There is no mystery involved here, it is when people mix them up is where the confusion comes, many think flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven, or inherit it, that is a true statement Why? becasue flesh and blood is flesh and blood (ONLY) and nothing more , It can not animate it self in any way by it self.
Spirit is the Life of that Body and it imputes Cognate Awareness to our Physical Minds which in truth animates our bodies. So the Principle thing is the Spirit (it is the life of the body) It can be physically expressed through words, that is to say the “Spirit Life' within the Body expresses it self through words , The kingdom of GOD is Spiritual and can be perceived in any physical Body by the Spirit that exists in it and to the same degree or kind of spirit, it can impute (ITS) effect through thought into that body, rather Man or animal make no difference.
But be assured the understanding of Spirit and Physical Bodies is very important, confusion is when we mix them up Like saying there exists a SPIRIT “BODY” by falsely transforming the word Spiritual to Mean a SPIRIT Spiritual is as Toby has said , it is the Thinking that is (IN) that Body but not the BODY itself. Paul's would have Just written SPIRIT BODY there if that was his true meaning But he did Not write it that way because He was talking about how the RESURRECTED BODY would be working as a Spiritual Being.
This is a very important subject I realized that a long time ago that is why I started a Thread on the meaning of the word SPIRIT. Mike took off from that and started this thread of Do Spirits Have Bodies and that was what i was trying to drive at by trying to get people to define SPIRIT, in it simplest terms and we came to the conclusion it was simply (intellect) in our minds that drive our thoughts and cognate abilities, it can be added to or taken away from us.
The overall point is to learn to Separate the Word SPIRIT from the word BODY , and if we keep this clear we can remove some of the confusion in religion IMO>
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………gene
From Boditharta's new thread in the Skeptics Place, which has the same title as this thread:
Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 03 2012,11:00) The fact is anything created takes up space and anything that takes up space has a quantity whether seen or unseen therefore if a spirit is any form of energy it must be a measure of Mass. Spirit could not simply be intellect if that were so you could not have a circumstance such as:
Daniel 10:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Came to help means that the qualitive or quantitive power or measure needed assistance from another Form or Body of capacity.
A body of water is free flowing and yet restricted by the mass(earth) surrounding it.
Toby is right this is important to understand but I don't think he understands it quite right.
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Jesus had a Spiritual form i.e. body)
Philippians 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:(Jesus had been given another form i.e. body)
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.Angels have light bodies which is also why they can change images so quickly just as how we see film
so yes Spirits do have bodies(form)I don't know if I agree with his speculation that angel's bodies are made of light, but I will add Asana to the number of those of us who believe spirit beings have bodies of some sort.
Toby,
I think you would truly enjoy discussing this with Asana in his “Do spirits have bodies?” thread. I believe that his style of writing and conversing will be more to your liking than mine are.
From David,
In the “Holy Spirit” thread:
Quote Do you not think that Christ is the “last Adam”?
Note, it doesn't say the last Adam became a “spiritual body.” It says a “spirit.”Perhaps, if you look at both these verses, which are tied together, you may understand that a “spirit” has a spiritual body.”
I know if you check a dictionary, it will give a body a definition of bones and flesh, etc. But, in the Bible we find the words: “spiritual body.” Clearly, a dictionary standard definition does not fit here
Mikeboll,
You said,Quote There are hummingbirds all around us here in Arizona, yet I've never bumped into one of them either. Nor have I ever bumped into a whale, a shark, or an elephant.
This is what I consider a “crazy question”.
Mikeboll, Hummingbirds, Whales, Sharks and Elephants, are not Spirits.
Quote Toby, if we are to do this question by question thing, then you must also answer mine. Mikeboll, I have complied with all your requests for answers.
Please now answer mine:
You say that a Spirit has a Body.
What is that Body made of, what is its composition?And does the Body of a Spirit contain a Spirit within it?
Note: this is ONE question in multiple parts.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2012,00:30) So Toby, You concur that I was right? It was not that the angel manifested two different bodies, but that God at first opened the donkey's eyes, and later Balaam's, right?
Add that to the case of Elisha asking God to open the eyes of his assistant to see the chariots of fire.
I haven't EVER read about an angel manifesting a body on earth, but above are two different examples of God opening the eyes of flesh beings so they can SEE the angels that were already there.
Hi Mikeboll.Concerning Balaam and the donkey, you said that the donkeys eyes were opened for him to see the Angel. Where in Scriptures is that written?
You also said that the Angel was 'Always there'. Do you believe that the Angel was 'Always there' – in a visible form?Mikeboll, was the Angel 'Always there in a visible form and the donkey had its eyes opened to see it'. At what point did the donkey's eyes become opened to see the Angel that was always there?
Was the Angel ever somewhere else? Then how could it have always been there?And in a visible form? Your post implies that the Angel was always in a visible form. If I am wrong about this then when and how did the Angel become visible?
You also asked if the Angel had two bodies and when I said only one you claim that I concurred with you. How so? Did you claim that the Angel only had one Body? And why would I even have thought that they had more than one body.
Here! Say 'Toby, do you agree that Water is not dry' then when I say 'Water is not dry' you say, 'Good, I see you agree with me!'…Basically, your response is not addressing the question you asked nor acknowledging the answer I gave you.
The Episide of Balaam and the donkey is concerned with 'Blindness due to Sin'.
It was Balaam's eyes, not the donkey's, that were closed and then opened to the presence of the Angel of God.
The invisible Angel was sent by God and manifested itself in a visible form.
Balaam's sin made him blind to the holy Angel's presence due to the unrighteouness that he was about to commit.Hi Mikeboll.
Further Points:Quote You concur that I was right? It was not that the angel manifested two different bodies, but that God at first opened the donkey's eyes, and later Balaam's, right? No one ever argued about Angels having more than one body In the Physical World of which Balaam and the donkey were in.
The discussion is, (By your own redefinition) Concerning 'Spirits' such as Angels, Jesus and God, In Heaven.
The Angel was not in Heaven.Moreover, Scriptures does not say that the God opened the 'Eyes' of the donkey. It says that God opened the 'Mouth' of the donkey – and it says that God opened the 'Eyes' of Balaam.
Where God makes an intervention, Scriptures states that intervention.
The purpose of this episode of the story of Balaam and the donkey IS to to show how 'Unrighteousness' can make one 'Spiritually Blind'.
Balaam did not see the Angel because of he was intent of doing what God did not tell him to do and would have done great damage to the people of God.
The donkey was not in Sin and saw the manifested Spirit.
Mikeboll, can I ask why you said that God opened the eyes of the donkey when Scriptures did not say so but yet Scriptures explicitly states that God opened the donkey's mouth and Balaam's eyes.
Quote Add that to the case of Elisha asking God to open the eyes of his assistant to see the chariots of fire. Mikeboll, this episode is about FAITH. This was to reassure the servant that he should have FAITH and not fear the enemy as God can provide an endless army of Angels if he so desired. This is reflected in the point Jesus made about his Father providing a thousand Angels to protect him if he, Jesus, called upon him, God. This was a symbolic Spiritual vision. Angels do not need Horses, Armour, bow and arrows, swords, nor armour, to fight human beings.
The point of the vision was to show God's Power in a manner compliant with the viewer's level of understanding, that is 'As an extremely powerful Army equipped in the style known to those at that time'. Today, that same vision would be of Soldiers in Tanks, airplanes, warships, and carrying AK45's and wearing Kevlar body armour.And why?
Can humans hurt an Angel?
I don't think so!!Quote I haven't EVER read about an angel manifesting a body on earth, but above are two different examples of God opening the eyes of flesh beings so they can SEE the angels that were already there. Again, the topic discussion is concerning 'Spirits in Heaven'.
However, you are aware, or should be aware that for good reason Scriptures does not dwell on dwell on aspects or nature of Angels else there may be a temptation toward glorification and worship of Angels.But we know that a Spirit is not 'Flesh' and Blood or bone. We also know that a Spirit is an 'Animating Force' within a Body but since that is dealing with those in the physical world that aspect of a Spirit has been dismissed. However, the 'Demon Spirits' are 'Angels', even though 'Fallen Angels'. They did not have bodies but were Influencing Forces within the body of the mad man – in fact, there were 'a Legion of Spirits inside the body of the man. Now, if, as you say, Scriptures gives descriptions of Angels Spirits having bodies with Wings, what size are these Angels, and how can there be thousands of them inside the man and yet the man was no different to any other man apart from being a little stronger due to his madness.
Additionally, no 'Demon Spirit' has ever been seen.
Saul did not see a Demon Spirit except by the 'Smoke' from the incense which again shows that a Spirit needs elements in the physical world to give it visible 'Form' and Shape, in the same way that the 'Wind' cannot be seen unless it picks up debri (Such as dust or water) that outlines a form and shape usually a swirl, rising column of thermals or stream.
Ok, seeing that you say that say that a Spirit in Heaven has a body, please can you say what the body of the Angel is made of? What is it's composition and form or shape?
(In your answer, please do not use Symbolism as part of your explanation.)
Quote (toby @ Mar. 03 2012,08:34) So, they say (and please do not get caught out by this!) that it was a 'New' body. Gene, it was NOT a New body – but a Re-Newed body.
Toby ……….> This is true, it is a renewed body Not a New one, Our bodies are to be spiritually renewed at the resurrection, “that will witness the redemption of our (PHYSICAL) BODIES” that have been Spiritually renewed>There is no scripture that has shown a resurrection of anything but a physical one The whole issue revolving around the resurrection is about a Body being raised from the dead and corrupted state it is in after dying, not One scripture shows anything any different then a Physical resurrection of bodies. Just as Jesus Had after his resurrection from the dead.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
gene
Quote Toby ……….> This is true, it is a renewed body Not a New one, Our bodies are to be spiritually renewed at the resurrection, “that will witness the redemption of our (PHYSICAL) BODIES” that have been Spiritually renewed> if the flesh is us then you right ,but we are not the flesh it is the soul in us that is us and so our body will be replaced,just as you say “i renew my tires on my car “is this not means that you have changed your tires by new ones ??yes because the tires are parts of the car,not the car.
so it is with our soul ,the flesh is not us but the soul is,so we will have new bodies.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 05 2012,03:48) You say that a Spirit has a Body.
What is that Body made of, what is its composition?
Spirit.I didn't read your following posts. Sorry, but you talk too much for my taste. Post a line or two, and I will read it and answer a question. But I'm not spending my evening reading novels by you.
Truthfully, the fact that you don't think spirit beings like angels have bodies is just not that important to me.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2012,05:14) gene Quote Toby ……….> This is true, it is a renewed body Not a New one, Our bodies are to be spiritually renewed at the resurrection, “that will witness the redemption of our (PHYSICAL) BODIES” that have been Spiritually renewed> if the flesh is us then you right ,but we are not the flesh it is the soul in us that is us and so our body will be replaced,just as you say “i renew my tires on my car “is this not means that you have changed your tires by new ones ??yes because the tires are parts of the car,not the car.
so it is with our soul ,the flesh is not us but the soul is,so we will have new bodies.
True T.Toby,
Here is the other “Bodies” thread I mentioned yesterday.
I'm about worn out on this subject for a while. I can only show the scriptures so many times before it becomes clear that enough just isn't enough for you.
Talk to Asana about it in the other thread if you want to.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2012,05:14) gene Quote Toby ……….> This is true, it is a renewed body Not a New one, Our bodies are to be spiritually renewed at the resurrection, “that will witness the redemption of our (PHYSICAL) BODIES” that have been Spiritually renewed> if the flesh is us then you right ,but we are not the flesh it is the soul in us that is us and so our body will be replaced,just as you say “i renew my tires on my car “is this not means that you have changed your tires by new ones ??yes because the tires are parts of the car,not the car.
so it is with our soul ,the flesh is not us but the soul is,so we will have new bodies.
Terricca ………..A RESURRECTION is not a replacement but a Regeneration of or Renewing of a Body . If we are to recieve a New Body then the word RESURRECTION of our (MORTAL) Bodies would not be needed.You say you believe scriptures so Believe this one,
Ro, 8:23…> A not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of “OUR BODY”
Pierre you belief that we are a body a soul and a spirit is flawed, a Soul is a BODY+ Spirit in it. A soul does not exist with out a body . You are adding your a metaphysical rendition to what a PERSON is composed of.>
We are transformed both Mentally by the renewing of our Minds, and the renewing of our BODIES. This is the Hope of all true Christians , Pierre. We are completely “REDEEMED” both BODY and SPIRIT our complete being is renewed and restored.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2012,05:14) gene Quote Toby ……….> This is true, it is a renewed body Not a New one, Our bodies are to be spiritually renewed at the resurrection, “that will witness the redemption of our (PHYSICAL) BODIES” that have been Spiritually renewed> if the flesh is us then you right ,but we are not the flesh it is the soul in us that is us and so our body will be replaced,just as you say “i renew my tires on my car “is this not means that you have changed your tires by new ones ??yes because the tires are parts of the car,not the car.
so it is with our soul ,the flesh is not us but the soul is,so we will have new bodies.
Terricca ………..A RESURRECTION is not a replacement but a Regeneration of or Renewing of a Body . If we are to recieve a New Body then the word RESURRECTION of our (MORTAL) Bodies would not be needed.You say you believe scriptures so Believe this one,
Ro, 8:23…> A not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of “OUR BODY”
Pierre you belief that we are a body a soul and a spirit is flawed, a Soul is a BODY+ Spirit in it. A soul does not exist with out a body . You are adding your a metaphysical rendition to what a PERSON is composed of.>
We are transformed both Mentally by the renewing of our Minds, and the renewing of our BODIES. This is the Hope of all true Christians , Pierre. We are completely “REDEEMED” both BODY and SPIRIT our complete being is renewed and restored.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
geneQuote Pierre you belief that we are a body a soul and a spirit is flawed, a Soul is a BODY+ Spirit in it. A soul does not exist with out a body . You are adding your a metaphysical rendition to what a PERSON is composed of.> Lev 26:11 And I (God)will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.DT 6:5 “ You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Ps 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
so God has a soul but not a body like us
Terrica…………A Soul is a COMPLETE BEING, Scripture plainly shows that a MAN as a complete bing, is a BODY + SPIRIT in that body and that is all a man Is. You are comparing GOD with A MAN, God does not need to renew His existence MAN DOES. Those scriptures you quoted is only referencing God's complete Being his whole “SELF”. it has nothing to do with us human beings having some “MYSTERY” unseen SOUL as you “assume”.
Gen 2:7……> And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life and man became a “LIVING SOUL”.
Now what part of that don't you understand Pierre , do you see your rendition there, No, it does not say and God made a BODY, a SOUL and put a spirit in him, now does it ?
It says a Body was Made and the breath of Life was put into it and (THEN) “MAN BECAME A “LIVING SOUL”
why do you people need to add to scripture what in fact scripture does not say? Metaphysical false teaching are what has corrupted true Christianity you need to come out of that.
The word SOUL is the COMPLETE BEING, nothing more and nothing Less.
peace and love………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,08:50) Terrica…………A Soul is a COMPLETER BEING, Scripture plainly shown that a MAN as a completer bing is a BODY + SPIRIT in that body and that is all a man Is. You are comparing GOD with A MAN, God does not need to renew His existence MAN DOES. Gen 2:7……> And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life and man became a “LIVING SOUL”.
Now what part of that don't you understand Pierre , do you see your rendition there, No, it does not say and God made a BODY, a SOUL and put a spirit in him, now does it ?
It says a Body was Made and the breath of Life was put into it and (THEN) “MAN BECAME A “LIVING SOUL”
why do you people need to add to scripture what in fact scripture does not say? Metaphysical false teaching are what has corrupted true Christianity you need to come out of that.
The word SOUL is the COMPLETE BEING, nothing more and nothing Less.
peace and love………………………….gene
genewe have discuss this in the SOUL topic I have not change my mind just as scriptures says ;
MT 26:41 “ Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”JN 6:63 “ It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing;
MT 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
1PE 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
Terricca…………yes fleshly LUSTS war against the the SOUL (the complete you both Body and Spirit which equal your living SOUL> Pierre it appears you simply don't believe the scripture i posted right? So you changed the word of God to fit your Preconception of what God word said a SOUL IS> How long ago did you acquire this false teachings was it when you were a Catholic, becasue that is Just what they also believe. They believe when you die you still alive SOUL goes to Purgatory is that what you also believe?
past teachings effect many here. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,09:15) Terricca…………yes fleshly LUSTS war against the the SOUL (the complete you both Body and Spirit which equal your living SOUL> Pierre it appears you simply don't believe the scripture i posted right? So you changed the word of God to fit your Preconception of what God word said a SOUL IS> How long ago did you acquire this false teachings was it when you were a Catholic, becasue that is Just what they also believe. They believe when you die you still alive SOUL goes to Purgatory is that what you also believe? past teachings effect many here. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………..gene
geneI give you three scriptures ,you give me one and it does not contradict my three scriptures and the four scriptures I have given prior to the three previous ones this is seven scriptures and you give me ONE and because you can not understand my seven you blame me for not understanding your logic conclusion
on one scripture that you do not even understand???
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