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Hi Mikeboll,
Can we do the question and answer thing in a Debate thread?
– One question asked
– That question answered
– No side questions
– No personal definition of words
– No forced definitions
– No 'mis-understanding' about 'attribute of a spirit' as in 'Love, kindness, fear, holiness, etc.' and 'Spirit' as in 'Angel, Holy Spirit, God'Is it ok for me to set up the Debate thread between you and me on his topic and with the provisos?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 01 2012,14:29) Hi Mikeboll, Can we do the question and answer thing in a Debate thread?
– One question asked
– That question answered
– No side questions
– No personal definition of words
– No forced definitions
– No 'mis-understanding' about 'attribute of a spirit' as in 'Love, kindness, fear, holiness, etc.' and 'Spirit' as in 'Angel, Holy Spirit, God'Is it ok for me to set up the Debate thread between you and me on his topic and with the provisos?
tobyHoly Spirit, is not a being so it as to be disqualified
Quote (toby @ Feb. 29 2012,14:17) It seems that Paul will have a body like that of Jesus, just as he was when he rose up in the air and into the cloud.
I thought you've been arguing that Jesus doesn't even have a body in heaven.Jesus was in heaven when Paul said the words of Phil 3:21, which means that Paul was talking about the glorious new body Jesus had AT THAT TIME – IN HEAVEN.
Quote (toby @ Feb. 29 2012,14:24) Hi Mikeboll. You said:
Quote (Keep in mind that Jesus also walked on water as flesh, and did many other things that flesh beings normally can't do. Also, Philip, as flesh, was somehow transported through space and/or time. Surely God could have made the still flesh person Jesus appear in the locked room.) The 'walking on water' thing is not about having a Spiritual Body – It is about 'Faith'.
t8 is under the assumption that Jesus was raised from the grave as a spirit being. I was also under that assumption for years. But Jesus, before ascending to heaven, told his disciples that he was NOT a spirit being.Yet we know he now is.
The body Jesus was raised in is the body Jesus died in. It was not the spiritual body he now has at the right hand of his God.
Quote (toby @ Feb. 29 2012,14:29) Is it ok for me to set up the Debate thread between you and me on his topic and with the provisos?
I'm really not interested, Toby. I've written volumes on this subject in the 500 pages of this thread. Everyone here seems to be on the same page except for you, and I don't really want to spend my time reading your posts that are trying to convince me that everyone else is just understanding it wrong, and you are the only one understanding it correctly.I understand “spiritual bodies” to be bodies that belong to spirit beings. You don't understand it the same way as the rest of us, and that's okay.
Thanks for the offer.
Hi Mikeboll.
You said:
Quote I understand “spiritual bodies” to be bodies that belong to spirit beings. You don't understand it the same way as the rest of us, and that's okay. Well, I thought the idea of discussion in the forum was to get to the bottom of this descrepancy.
This thread has only done 507 pages – The Trinity thread has done '2000'… Yet that is still being debated.
I am so sorry that you refused the offer of a debate – I thought you would have enjoyed it as there would have been no way for any misunderstandings to arise and the aspect of a 'point by point' questions and answers sessions would be exactly the type of dialogue to bring this about.
So does this mean you no longer wish to answer the 'point by point' questions you suggested I put to you concerning the posts you said you would answer if I answered you first.
And I have done my part. I agreed and complied with all your suggestions as to answering your questions first. Do you now agree to answer mine in this open thread?
Toby……….Mike says everyone see it as he does is a LIE I sure don't see it as He does, either, there exist no Such thing as a SPIRIT”BODY”, but he is Right Probably 95% of so-called Christendom see it his way. They believe when we die we are resurrected with a SPIRIT BODY, not a “SPIRITUAL” sustained Flesh and Bone Body as Jesus had and plainly said He was Flesh and BONE and NOT A SPIRIT “BODY” of any kind. Mike Speculated Jesus some how lost His flesh and bone Body and turned into a “Spirit Body” is pure hogwash, He has NO Scripture to Support is assumptions. He could not even produce one scripture that supports his assumptions either.
Mike is like a person who say Water is Wet therefore Wet = water He takes the word SPIRITUAL BODY to = A SPIRIT BODY when in fact it does not equal that at all. Spiritual is identifying the TYPE of life sustaining Force of that “resurected “MORTAL BODY” , that was raised from its grave.
He is a typical Metaphysical thinking Person. Mixing up BODIES from flesh and Blood with SPIRITS that exist (IN) those BODIES.
He has not idea what the is talking about and that is why He does not want to openly debate you one step at a time. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………………………….gene
To All………….Here is something to think about , When John saw Jesus in Revelations and described him, did he not describe a “BODY” he had , and when Jesus Spoke to the Churches did He not say, Hear what the Spirit is saying,to the Churches, So Jesus exists with a “BODY” and His words are Spirit , no different then when he was on earth He had a Body and Had Spirit (IN) that Body so it is (IN) Heaven. That resurected Body is the same Body Jesus has now no matter how it is transformed it still is a BODY and that BODY is not a spirit but has SPIRIT (IN) IT. The resurrection is of the BODY it is NOT of the SPIRIT becasue Spirit can not Dies because they all come from GOD and Go Back to him.
Peace and Love to you all…………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
I would tend to agree with you here. I support your points concerning the Spirit in the physical world – the world of material matter in which all things are 'en-bodied' to one extent or another – that is: 'They are made of material matter'.
I know some might then say, 'Oh, so there then could be immaterial matter!
But that would be a nonsense, like you said about Water and Wet.
Think about it: 'Dry Water', 'Solid Gas', 'Material Spirit'…
These are called 'OxyMoron' (And I think of those who say such things as 'Oxymorons'…: mixed up thinkers!)The Spirit of a person, like you say, is enbodied by the Flesh of that person.
It is the animator, the sustaining factor driving the intent and thoughts of the person (the Soul).
When that Spirit leaves the body, the body is said to be 'Dead'.
It decays due to not being sustained or not having being animated for a purpose.
It literally wastes away.
Meantime, the undying Spirit goes back to God, who gave it in the first place.
Then, during the resurrection, the structure of the decayed flesh and blood and bone body is restored by the Holy Spirit long with its corresponding Spirit.This Spirit of the person is put back into the Renewed Body (not a NEW body but a Restored Old Body) by the Holy Spirit of God – for this reason it is said to be Spiritual Renewed. This is the 'rebirth' spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus. The body is person is 'Reborn' with the Godly desire of the Heavenly Spirited (Like those of Heaven!) by the Holy Spirit – not the Natural Body of the Flesh that is 'born first in sin of the Flesh' and afterwards made Spiritual: “For the Spiritual was not first. The Natural, then afterwards, the Spiritual”
Flesh and blood and bone is material matter.
The Heavenly realm is the realm of the Spirit – which is Immaterial.
Flesh and blood cannot inhabit the Spirit realm. (I am not using the well known verse, here!).So, the question is: How did Jesus enter the Spirit realm after he clearly stated – and proved to over 412 persons over a period of 40 days – that his resurrected Spiritual Body was the same flesh and bone body that he died and was buried in?
The flesh and bone body cannot enter the Spirit realm and was shed upon [Jesus] entering the cloud. It was therefore only his Bodiless Spirit that entered Heaven.
Consider the bodies of all those who have been cremated and their ashes scattered to the four winds – how are they to be restored? Well, the Holy Spirit will 'Gather them from the four ends of the earth”.
If the scattered particles of the dead can be gathered by the Power of the SPIRIT, they can also be Scattered by the Power of that same SPIRIT.
The Spiritual body is uncorruptible and cannot decay, has power and is glorious – to wit: Spiritual, it is ready and available whenever Jesus returns to the world – to the flesh and blood – embodied material world.
See here; Even in his Spiritual Body, Jesus was only ever in one place at any one time. Even though he could be at any place at any time, he was only in one place in any one time.
When Jesus was in Spirit alone, in Heaven, he was able, by the Holy Spirit, to be everywhere at the same time.
Jesus is with everyone who believes in him.For this reason, Jesus says, 'I must go away. For if I do not go away, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, cannot come'.
When Jesus went away, he was given the Holy Spirit, and that same Holy Spirit is his Power and Authority while he brings about the reconciliation of his fathers new kingdom.
Concerning the Holy Spirit: Was it not stated that the Spirit manifested itself like a Dove (Why do people read this so so wrong… The text does not say 'AS a Dove' – it says , 'LIKE a Dove'… Meaning 'the Spirit alighted on his head in the manner of a Dove: Gracefully, like a light breeze. Contrast that with the Pentecost!! Can all readers please realign their thoughts on this side point – please.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 01 2012,03:54) And I have done my part. I agreed and complied with all your suggestions as to answering your questions first. Do you now agree to answer mine in this open thread?
Absolutely Toby,Ask a BRIEF question.
Btw, you didn't really “do your part”, because your answer to Phil 3:21 doesn't really answer my point about it.
Here again is the point:
Jesus was in heaven when Paul said the words of Phil 3:21, which means that Paul was talking about the glorious new body Jesus had AT THAT TIME – IN HEAVEN. Paul surely didn't say “the body Jesus USED TO HAVE BEFORE HE ASCENDED”, right?Please BRIEFLY address this point in the post where you ask me a question.
Hi Mikeboll.
Does the Scripture you refer to say “changed/transformed/modified…to be like the body Jesus now has in Heaven”?
Please show me those word or even the allusion to them.
When does Scriptures say that Paul and the other elect will have their bodies transformed to conform to that like Jesus has?
Is it not “At the last trumpet”?
And where is Jesus when that event occurs?
Will he not be “in the clouds / in the air” just as those that were there saw him leave – in a Flesh and Bone body?
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says,
“Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Did not one of the two Angels say to them “This Same Jesus will Return in like manner to that which you saw him leave”?
In what Manner did Jesus leave?
Hi Mikeboll,
You quote Phillippians 3:21 but what does Phillippians 3:20 say?
Read both verses togther:
“But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.”
This says that it is when Jesus Returns to the physical world.
Paul does not say that Jesus will transform their bodies by the Holy Spirit to be like his “as he Now is in Heaven.
Hi Mikeboll.
Just out of interest – which Scripture(s) are you using to say that Jesus is now a Spirit in heaven?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 29 2012,15:51) t8, Read my comment in your new thread about learning something new. I used to believe like you, that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit. But he assures his disciples in Luke 24:37 that he is NOT a spirit.
I know he became a life-giving spirit, but I assume it was upon his ascension to heaven, because he had flesh and bone after he was raised on earth – something he assured us that spirits do not have.
(Keep in mind that Jesus also walked on water as flesh, and did many other things that flesh beings normally can't do. Also, Philip, as flesh, was somehow transported through space and/or time. Surely God could have made the still flesh person Jesus appear in the locked room.)
Mike, I haven't actually ever made the point that Jesus was a spirit without his body. After all, he did show the holes in his hands if I remember rightly.Actually I was leading to the fact that bodies cannot go through walls because of electromagnetism. Atoms mainly consist of space and a very small percentage of each atom is a nucleus and electrons. So it is not because atoms touch other atoms that physical bodies cannot go through objects, but because of one of the four fundamental interactions in nature called electromagnetism. When 2 physical objects collide, they are repelled by this force.
Thus if a body defies this force it is not necessarily because it has suddenly become spiritual but because by faith we can over come these forces.
What was it that the disciples said about Jesus when he was in a boat during a storm.
The men were amazed, and said, “What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”
Were beings made for these laws and forces or were they made for us is the real question.
T8……….Atoms contain MATTER and Yes Mater cane pas through Matter. Just like we can pas through Space easily, becasue of the separation of Material Matter. This also hold on the Atomic scale, it is just as easy for atoms having charged Particles (Matter) to pas through each other if a great enough force is applied. There is far more space in all Physical Matter them we can even begin to imagine , becasue most thing look solid to us but there is more space in them them solid Material.
Jesus still exists with a “BODY” that he was raised with, Yes even (IN) this present time as REVELATION Show Him Having a BODY right NOW according to Revelations 1:13-14.
Problem here understanding what SPIRIT (IS) once you understand that everything else falls into place. Spirit are NOT BEINGS they are ASPECTS of BEINGS. Once you understand what a SPIRIT (IS) them you can easily see How they can exist (IN) anyone at any Time and you can see what Jesus Meant BY saying the FATHER WAS (IN) HIM. it all makes sense , one you come to grips to what a SPIRIT (IS)> A spirit is not a body of ANY KIND never was and never will BE either, Spirits are what is (IN) Bodies and Animates them .
No one has produced any proof Jesus was ever transformed into a SPIRIT of any KIN D or TYPE, Here at all. Fact is to show the level of confusion here About Spirits, People even here think Satan is a BEING like a Person of some type when in fact (IT) is a SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of an EVIL ADVERSARY a ha-satan and not a person at all but a mental attribute that is in all people at tims yes even Peter and Judas and the Pharisees, and (IT) Produces evil adversarial thought and Has (IT) was with all people unless they Have the “SPIRIT” Intellect of TRUTH (IN) them and then they can See the error of that Spirit that works in them and the world and can Mater (IT) as Jesus also Did.
T8……….The confusion is not understanding what A SPIRIT (IS). Just that simple Brother. IMO
peace and love………………………………………gene
Toby………You stated that a Flesh body can not enter into the Spirit realm is right , but the Spirit realm can inter into a Flesh BODY. Do you see my Point . Remember when Jesus said The Kingdom of God came not with OBSERVATION, you can say Look here or LOOK there, and not (PHYSICALLY SEE) it why? becasue it is SPIRITUAL PERCEIVED , But he went on to say the Kingdom of GOD is (WITHIN YOU).
Because people who don't understand what Spirit really is they try every way they can to twist up those words to mean what ever. But the fact is the Kingdom of God (IS) a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM and it can NEVER be a PHYSICAL KINGDOM Because it is SPIRITUAL. But it can be (IN) PHYSICAL People. IMO
As far as all the rest you are saying I totally agree with it Brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………gene
Quote (toby @ Mar. 02 2012,08:57) Gene, I would tend to agree with you here. I support your points concerning the Spirit in the physical world – the world of material matter in which all things are 'en-bodied' to one extent or another – that is: 'They are made of material matter'.
I know some might then say, 'Oh, so there then could be immaterial matter!
But that would be a nonsense, like you said about Water and Wet.
Think about it: 'Dry Water', 'Solid Gas', 'Material Spirit'…
These are called 'OxyMoron' (And I think of those who say such things as 'Oxymorons'…: mixed up thinkers!)The Spirit of a person, like you say, is enbodied by the Flesh of that person.
It is the animator, the sustaining factor driving the intent and thoughts of the person (the Soul).
When that Spirit leaves the body, the body is said to be 'Dead'.
It decays due to not being sustained or not having being animated for a purpose.
It literally wastes away.
Meantime, the undying Spirit goes back to God, who gave it in the first place.
Then, during the resurrection, the structure of the decayed flesh and blood and bone body is restored by the Holy Spirit long with its corresponding Spirit.This Spirit of the person is put back into the Renewed Body (not a NEW body but a Restored Old Body) by the Holy Spirit of God – for this reason it is said to be Spiritual Renewed. This is the 'rebirth' spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus. The body is person is 'Reborn' with the Godly desire of the Heavenly Spirited (Like those of Heaven!) by the Holy Spirit – not the Natural Body of the Flesh that is 'born first in sin of the Flesh' and afterwards made Spiritual: “For the Spiritual was not first. The Natural, then afterwards, the Spiritual”
Toby……I do agree with this brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (toby @ Mar. 01 2012,20:00) Did not one of the two Angels say to them “This Same Jesus will Return in like manner to that which you saw him leave”? In what Manner did Jesus leave?
All I need is a question, Toby. I'm not interested in all the added fluff, okay?The answer to the question is: On the clouds.
It says nothing about what Jesus looked like or consisted of. The manner in which he left was ascending through the clouds. The manner in which he will return will be descending through the clouds.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 01 2012,20:01) “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.” This says that it is when Jesus Returns to the physical world.
I see. So you interpret this passage to be teaching that the bodiless Jesus will “put on” his body again when he returns, and Paul, who will be living in heaven, hopes to have his body be like the one Jesus will “put on” when he comes to earth?That's a bit of a reach, don't you think? Is there any SCRIPTURAL reason to think Paul WASN'T speaking of the body Jesus has RIGHT NOW IN HEAVEN?
Where does your understanding that Jesus is bodiless now, but will put on a “earth body” when he returns come from? And why would Paul, whose hope it is to live in heaven, want a “earth body” if he is going to be living in heaven?
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