Do spirits have bodies?

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2012,08:50)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2012,03:02) Gene, The only question of this thread is whether or not angels and Jesus have bodies.  You agree with me and Pierre that they do, and Toby insists that they don't. Aren't you smart enough to know which side of the discussion you're even on?   Or is it that you are so hell-bent on disagreeing with anything I say that you can't even see which end is up anymore? Mike……..Don't give me this BS, You are saying that SPIRITS (ARE) BODIES themselves. That is NOT what I or Toby are saying or Have EVER Said.  You even say Jesus was Morphed back into a SPIRIT “BODY” existence when he went to heaven,  which is simply a LIE According to What He said at lest,  He said he was NOT a SPIRIT , why?, because a spirit does not have a body as you see “I HAVE”   Get it MIKE “NO” SPIRIT has a BODY Period and in all your useless Posts  you have never shown ONE Spirit “BODY” in scripture. You problem is you back round in Metaphysical religious beliefs of the Trinitarians and Preexistence you tend to view religion in a Mystery Religious Sense as Plato and Aristotle the original Greek Metaphysical pagan teachers did which infected true Christianity a long long time ago and you have bought into it hook line a sinker. IMO peace and love………………………………gene

gene

back to square one

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca…………Why should i Leave square ONE when it is the truth?>

peace and love…………………………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 21 2012,02:51)

You said: Quote I can refute all of it, starting with the fact that Jesus NEVER said spirits don't have BODIES, like you keep stating. Well, you certainly can 'claim' to be able to refute all of it.  And when you do you condemn yourself, because no matter what you say, it is obvious, that you would be refuting the Scriptures –

Unless Jesus truly said spirits don't have BODIES, then it is you who is condemning himself by adding to the scriptures.

Quote (toby @ Feb. 21 2012,02:51)

When Jesus died, where did his Spirit go?  Was the Spirit that left his body – in a body?

If that spirit was a living BEING at the time, then yes, it had a body.

Quote (toby @ Feb. 21 2012,02:51)

Let's take the latter part first – Please show your proof.

Luke 2
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest,
  and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”

15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

I don't see anything that says these were men.  I don't see anything that says these angels “manifested a body”.  Yet the shepherds were able to SEE these many angels before they departed back to heaven.

Quote (toby @ Feb. 21 2012,02:51)

The definition of a Spirit is that it is opposed to the physical:

Whose definition?  God's?  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2012,08:50)

You are saying that SPIRITS (ARE) BODIES themselves.

Gene, not only have I never said that, but I've already corrected you on this point at least 3 times now.  I'm getting the feeling that your memory is going.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2012,08:50)

He said he was NOT a SPIRIT , why?, because a spirit does not have a body as you see “I HAVE”

Show me the word “BODY” Gene.  Jesus said spirits don't have flesh and bone – he never said they didn't have bodies.

In fact, the disciples were SEEING a BODY when they thought he was a spirit being.  He could have easily told them that spirits don't even have bodies…………but he didn't.

Gene, do angels have bodies in heaven?  YES or NO?  

(That is the only question this thread was designed to explore.  I say, “YES, they DO”.  What do YOU say?)

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2012,16:00)

Terricca…………Why should i Leave square ONE when it is the truth?> peace and love…………………………………………………..gene

Gene

you are ambitious,in your one square orientation     truth???

[toby]

Mikeboll, let's forget Spirit in a Human Being because it is clear to me now why you decided to dismiss it in the first place… It is clear that the Spirit of the Human Being does not have a Body but is 'Constrained' in the Body of Flesh of the man – which is what Gene says.

This is the same as what you yourself are saying concerning the Spirit of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body – the 'Spirit' is IN a body.
The Spirit of Jesus was likewise IN the Flesh and Blood and Bone body of Jesus before the body was caused to be dead by the removal of the Spirit.

My point was:  Was the Spirit that left the body of Jesus, itself, in a body?  You answer simply that if it was a Spirit Being then it was… Hmm!!  What on earth does that mean?

(P.s. it should be noted that your response no more answer the point than anything else you posted in the last 490+ pages)

The second response you made is still referring to Angels (Spirits) in the physical realm which is NOT part of the discussion.

Can I remind you again that the topic question is:

'Do Spirits in Heaven have bodies'.

It appears that it is impossible for you to confine your points to the very parameters that you yourself defined.

I wonder why that is? (not!)

It does not help your cause to ignore the Spiritual Tent theme that explains how the Spirit in the body that is Jesus appears and disappears at will where-ever it will.

You yourself thought you had found a killer verse but it only played against you as you agree that Spiritual Tent is equivalent to Spiritual Body.

A tent is not a permanent dwelling – a tent is a dwelling that is entered and exited, pitched up and taken down and moved about, pitched up again and entered in again.

Yes, Mikeboll, the Spirit that is Jesus is 'Naked' (Without a covering, bodiless) enters its Spiritual Tent at any place in the physical realm as it pleases.

When it so desires, it exits the Spiritual tent, unpitches it up and goes where it will (Who was it that said that the Spirit is like the wind? Was it someone who would know exactly what the analogy meant?)

[toby]

Mikeboll,
Can you deny that the word 'Appeared' and 'Manifested' are synonymous.
Now considering that the definition of 'Spirit' is 'Bodiless' it then makes sense that:
'An Angel of the Lord manifested itself to them'
is just as valid as:
'An Angel of the Lord appeared to them'

Mikeboll, if a Spirit is normally invisible, what must occur for that Spirit to become visible?
If a Spirit is Bodiless, what must occur for it to acquire a body covering?
If a Spirit has no material form or shape, what must occur for it to acquire a form or shape.
Think of that 'Water' example: water has no form or shape.
In order for it to gain a form or shape it must be 'constrained' in a body of some sort.
Think of the wind (a gas) it has no form or shape but it can be made to acquire a shape by constraining it in another material body shape… The wind, the water, fluid and gas have no shape nor form of their own but acquire form or shape by constraint only.  A Spirit seeks fervently to return to its unconstrained Spiritual realm whenever it enters the physical realm.  And who can blame them?

[terraricca]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 22 2012,21:05)

Mikeboll, let's forget Spirit in a Human Being because it is clear to me now why you decided to dismiss it in the first place… It is clear that the Spirit of the Human Being does not have a Body but is 'Constrained' in the Body of Flesh of the man – which is what Gene says. This is the same as what you yourself are saying concerning the Spirit of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body – the 'Spirit' is IN a body. The Spirit of Jesus was likewise IN the Flesh and Blood and Bone body of Jesus before the body was caused to be dead by the removal of the Spirit. My point was:  Was the Spirit that left the body of Jesus, itself, in a body?  You answer simply that if it was a Spirit Being then it was… Hmm!!  What on earth does that mean? (P.s. it should be noted that your response no more answer the point than anything else you posted in the last 490+ pages) The second response you made is still referring to Angels (Spirits) in the physical realm which is NOT part of the discussion. Can I remind you again that the topic question is: 'Do Spirits in Heaven have bodies'. It appears that it is impossible for you to confine your points to the very parameters that you yourself defined. I wonder why that is? (not!) It does not help your cause to ignore the Spiritual Tent theme that explains how the Spirit in the body that is Jesus appears and disappears at will where-ever it will. You yourself thought you had found a killer verse but it only played against you as you agree that Spiritual Tent is equivalent to Spiritual Body. A tent is not a permanent dwelling – a tent is a dwelling that is entered and exited, pitched up and taken down and moved about, pitched up again and entered in again. Yes, Mikeboll, the Spirit that is Jesus is 'Naked' (Without a covering, bodiless) enters its Spiritual Tent at any place in the physical realm as it pleases. When it so desires, it exits the Spiritual tent, unpitches it up and goes where it will (Who was it that said that the Spirit is like the wind? Was it someone who would know exactly what the analogy meant?)

Toby

Read your quote,and tell me what is wrong with it,?

Starting for you 1) those are opinions,but some have possibilities,but only if you do not constrained them,

Water has not body you say then H2o is a non existing item,
Christ says the spirit is like the wind it go s and comes but you do not see it but you can feel it,

Now the wind we can not see it but wen it comes at 150km /h you do not stand out side ,so we feel it ,if we feel it would this mean we are deceived by our sence of feelings???or is this a real thing ?if it is a thing ten what is that thing we call the wind and can not see,
Because it is existing this we can not deny ,

We can ear,feel,and see his effect,and you say the wind as no body ,if the wind would be a nothing then he would do nothing,

And spirit beings are the same ,if they are created then they were not in existence prior to that moment ,and now wen created they have a place into God s creation were ever that may be,

This topic has expend to a deeper understanding of what Mike and I see as a body,

Ok just look it this way :wen the wind blows on the surface of the water it moves that water and if it blows hard it move it feets deep but to do that it at to replace the volum of water by his own volum  or space,

It is so with all things ,

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll.

You said that Jesus did not say that a Spirit did not have a body.
Ok, you are right – only in that he did not use that Exact wording.
But Mikeboll, what IS a living body (I mean, a body of a living being as opposed to, say, a body of water?)

Here is a definition of 'Body' concerning a living being:

    'The physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs.'

Now, Mikeboll, you say that Jesus did not say that a Spirit had a Body but that he only said that a Spirit did not have 'Flesh and Bone'.  In other words, You use the 'definition of a living body' to say that Jesus did not use the 'definition of a living body'.

Well, it does you no favours either because then Gene might say that neither did Jesus say that a Spirit had anything that was NOT flesh and bone – Jesus only said that a Spirit did not have flesh and bone.
AND, that flesh and bone body that Jesus said that a Spirit did not have IS the same flesh and bone Spiritual Body (Spiritual Tent) that his Spirit was clothed in at his resurrection.
What was his Spirit clothed in while it was NOT in a Body while his body was lying in the grave?  It wasn't clothed – it was Naked.  God clothed him at his resurrection in his new Spiritual Tent Body – just as you point out by what apostle Paul said.

Mikeboll, you own words condemn your argument.

[toby]

Hi Terraricca.

You certainly have an interesting take on the definition of 'Body'.  Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Body' from.

(By the way, when someone uses an ANALOGY, someone else is not meant to use the analogy object as reality.  For instance, if someone said 'Some of Terraricca's posts are like a 'car crash' (A collision of real and unreal ideas creating a very messy scene that requires immediate emergency service and hospitalisation to even think of attempting resuscitation of whatever it was meant to mean) would you then call the Ambulance and fire service to go to that person because 'they had had a 'car crash' … No, that would be silly.. So why do you use the WIND analogy out of context?
Jesus said that a Spirit is like the Wind to show how an unseen FORCE can have an effect without it itself having a body.  Electricity is a force but it has no body and you can't see it but it can certainly hurt you badly if misused.
Terraricca, anyone who analyses an analogy to factual level is missing the point of the analogy and is trying too hard to prove that which was not required and is obviously in great ignorance of the point of the analogy – or is lacking wisdom and understanding.
Terraricca, there are those who are lacking the wisdom and understanding – and  there are others who are deliberate over-analysing seeking to deliberately mislead away from the point of the analogy into factual aspects of the Analogy…
'Spirit… Think of it as being like the Wind (air in motion).

You cannot see it but you can feels its effects.

You cannot touch it but it can 'touch' you.

It is around you all the time but you do not notice it (Oh dear, who's going to say 'not if you are under water…! Ha… Pure water is like… How do you see water?  When it is constrained – please prove otherwise?)

When some of it is gathered together as a body in one place AND it gathers up contamination in and around itself it becomes as if visible, it acquires a visible form and shape as in a Tornado, Whirlwind, Hurricane and it's effects are monumental (A Spirit is extremely powerful – even a Spirit that is simply delivering a message – A Messenging Spirit – an Angel)

[terraricca]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 23 2012,03:55)

Hi Terraricca. You certainly have an interesting take on the definition of 'Body'.  Please can you show me where you get your definition of 'Body' from. (By the way, when someone uses an ANALOGY, someone else is not meant to use the analogy object as reality.  For instance, if someone said 'Some of Terraricca's posts are like a 'car crash' (A collision of real and unreal ideas creating a very messy scene that requires immediate emergency service and hospitalisation to even think of attempting resuscitation of whatever it was meant to mean) would you then call the Ambulance and fire service to go to that person because 'they had had a 'car crash' … No, that would be silly.. So why do you use the WIND analogy out of context? Jesus said that a Spirit is like the Wind to show how an unseen FORCE can have an effect without it itself having a body.  Electricity is a force but it has no body and you can't see it but it can certainly hurt you badly if misused. Terraricca, anyone who analyses an analogy to factual level is missing the point of the analogy and is trying too hard to prove that which was not required and is obviously in great ignorance of the point of the analogy – or is lacking wisdom and understanding. Terraricca, there are those who are lacking the wisdom and understanding – and  there are others who are deliberate over-analysing seeking to deliberately mislead away from the point of the analogy into factual aspects of the Analogy… 'Spirit… Think of it as being like the Wind (air in motion). You cannot see it but you can feels its effects. You cannot touch it but it can 'touch' you. It is around you all the time but you do not notice it (Oh dear, who's going to say 'not if you are under water…! Ha… Pure water is like… How do you see water?  When it is constrained – please prove otherwise?) When some of it is gathered together as a body in one place AND it gathers up contamination in and around itself it becomes as if visible, it acquires a visible form and shape as in a Tornado, Whirlwind, Hurricane and it's effects are monumental (A Spirit is extremely powerful – even a Spirit that is simply delivering a message – A Messenging Spirit – an Angel)

toby

keep thinking,you may be able to understand what Christ says to Nicodemus,what the spirit his,

but stay away from grammar,it will kill you

the spirit as to understood ,but not with grammar,

[mikeboll64]

Hi Toby,

Don't take offense, but I simply have too little time, and even less interest in reading your long-winded, opinionated posts.

I don't really care that you believe angels don't have bodies in heaven.  I believe they do, and many others understand “spiritual body” the same way I do.  Paul certainly wasn't anxious to receive a new body that he wouldn't even NEED.

Nor would he say he wanted a body like the one Jesus has if Jesus no longer even has a body.

Believe what you want, Toby.  Just don't expect the rest of us to change our beliefs based on the weak arguments you've made in this thread.

I now leave you to your beliefs. Kindly return the favor to me.

[terraricca]

again for me,Mike:)

[toby]

Terraricca, please tell me what you think it is that Jesus is meaning when he spoke about the Wind to Nicodemus.  I am intrigued to hear what you have to say.

“The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can this be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 22 2012,20:34)

Hi Mikeboll. You said that Jesus did not say that a Spirit did not have a body. Ok, you are right – only in that he did not use that Exact wording. But Mikeboll, what IS a living body (I mean, a body of a living being as opposed to, say, a body of water?) Here is a definition of 'Body' concerning a living being:     'The physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs.' Now, Mikeboll, you say that Jesus did not say that a Spirit had a Body but that he only said that a Spirit did not have 'Flesh and Bone'.  In other words, You use the 'definition of a living body' to say that Jesus did not use the 'definition of a living body'. Well, it does you no favours either because then Gene might say that neither did Jesus say that a Spirit had anything that was NOT flesh and bone – Jesus only said that a Spirit did not have flesh and bone. AND, that flesh and bone body that Jesus said that a Spirit did not have IS the same flesh and bone Spiritual Body (Spiritual Tent) that his Spirit was clothed in at his resurrection. What was his Spirit clothed in while it was NOT in a Body while his body was lying in the grave?  It wasn't clothed – it was Naked.  God clothed him at his resurrection in his new Spiritual Tent Body – just as you point out by what apostle Paul said. Mikeboll, you own words condemn your argument.

Mike……….What Toby has said here is true brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Gene,

I didn't read Toby's post, but I do know that both you and Toby keep claiming that Jesus said spirits don't have BODIES.  That is a lie against scripture.

What if Jesus had said, “Automobiles don't have flesh and bone”?  Would that mean the same as “Automobiles don't have BODIES“? YES or NO, Gene?

Flaws like this happen when people try to FORCE the scriptures into teaching something they don't really teach.

[terraricca]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 24 2012,21:23)

Terraricca, please tell me what you think it is that Jesus is meaning when he spoke about the Wind to Nicodemus.  I am intrigued to hear what you have to say. “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can this be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”

toby

I be back on it ,stay tuned

[toby]

Mikeboll,

It is fine and ok for us to disagree – and for as many as so wish to not believe what I say in this thread.  No one is compelling you to respond or reply to anything posted – but it does not do your credibility any good if you were to not even be so good as to actually summarise your belief.
No one reading this thread would have any idea what you actually believe other than that you 'Believe that Spirits have Bodies in Heaven'.
After 490+ pages of discussions and ayward argument, your departing words are simply that you believe Spirits have bodies?

Is that it?

Shall I do a summary for you?

Else please outline the how and why of your belief.

For instance: What is it that is clothed in a Spiritual Body? (Is it not the Body of Human Beings raised from the dead)

Is there a Scripture verse stating that a Spirit has a Spiritual Body (No, there is not!)

Did Jesus as a man, have a Spiritual Body? (Yes, when he was raised up out of the grave on the third day)

Did Jesus prove that Spiritual Body to over 400 disciples? ( Yes he did)

Did Jesus say that a Spirit had a body? (No, he said a Spirit did not have a body as they could plainly see be evidence of touching and examining him – it would appear that a human being cannot 'touch' a Spirit but clearly a Spirit can, at will, touch a human being… You cannot touch the wind (air) unless the wind (air) is 'embodied' (localised motion: breeze, hurricane, tornado…))

But all this is still speaking of earthly issues.  The topic question is 'Do Spirits in Heaven have Bodies?'.

We can discount God, and the Holy Spirit… If only that we do not blaspheme either… although I think even you would not dare to claim that the Holy Spirit has a Body!

So we are left with Jesus and Angels.

You claim that Angels have bodies because the Scriptures describes them but you never substantiate your claim in any way – you just assert that it is so.  Yet, the descriptions of 'Angels' given in symbolic references in Scriptures is not validated by the descriptions given by eye-witnesses to Angelic Being in the physical world – for instance, no Angel is ever described as having wings, nor heads as of an animal or a bird.

Jesus is likewise described in Heaven as having a tongue of a sharp double edged sword, hair as white as snow and feet of bronze.  At the same time he is also described as being a 'Lamb as if slaughtered' – and – as a Giant Angel.  Additionally he is seen riding a horse with his gown with blood around the  edges.  Is there blood in Heaven, and horses?  And Angels carry swords – In Heaven – how is a Sword going to hurt an Angel?  Do Angels fight hand to hand in Heaven?  Can an Angel be wounded or be killed in battle?  Mikeboll, surely this is all symbolic for powerfully energetic forces clashing – or intellectual battling using Symbols of power as those that would be seen in the physical world (Swords and Shields and War horses.  Today, those same things might be Ak45's, Kevlar Body Armour and Tanks!  Tomorrow?  The military is developing body suits that enhance the power of the human body multiple times)

You asked about the 'Heavenly Tent' as if you thought you had found a killer verse but yet again it turns out it is nothing more than the same 'Spiritual Body' spoken of before.  Besides, if something is 'clothed' in that Spiritual tent then that something must have previously been 'Unclothed'.  What is it that is clothed – what else but 'The Spirit' – so, the Spirit has to be 'clothed' – it has no body of itself.

The Spirit has no body of itself but must be clothed in one.
And we know that the Spiritual Body is the flesh (and bone) body that Jesus had when he was raised up from the dead (Sorry  – repeating!!)

Why did Paul want a body like that?  Wouldn't you?  Wouldn't everyone?

You ask why he would want a body like that only to get rid of it when he entered Heaven.

Mikeboll, is Paul greater than Jesus?  If Jesus had a Spiritual body of flesh (….) and Scriptures tells us that at the last trumpet the dead will rise up (In Spiritual Bodies) and those who are not dead at the time be changed in the blink of an eye into those Spiritual bodies.  Their spirits will be clothed in their Spiritual tent and they will meet with Jesus as he was before he left to go into Heaven – how was that?  In a Spiritual Body of flesh.

The elite will enter their Spiritual Tent when on Earth – and exit their Spiritual Tent when they enter Heaven.

A Tent (A temporary dwelling) is pitched outside a fixed Dwelling (A House) – do you take and pitch your tent inside your house?

[toby]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2012,12:38)

Quote (toby @ Feb. 24 2012,21:23) Terraricca, please tell me what you think it is that Jesus is meaning when he spoke about the Wind to Nicodemus.  I am intrigued to hear what you have to say. “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can this be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” toby I be back on it ,stay tuned

OK Terrarica.

[terraricca]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 25 2012,21:08)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2012,12:38) Quote (toby @ Feb. 24 2012,21:23) Terraricca, please tell me what you think it is that Jesus is meaning when he spoke about the Wind to Nicodemus.  I am intrigued to hear what you have to say. “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can this be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” toby I be back on it ,stay tuned OK Terrarica.

Toby

this is for you;

1-2 Nicodemus is introduced as a man of the upper class, conservative in his beliefs, and definitely interested in Jesus' teaching. As a Pharisee he belonged to the strict religious sect of Judaism in contrast to the Sadducees, who were less rigid in their beliefs and were more politically minded. As a member of the “ruling council” or Sanhedrin, he was sensitive to the prevailing doctrinal trends of the time. His interest in Jesus had been prompted by the miracles he had witnessed, and he came for an interview to obtain more information. His approach shows that he was cautious, open-minded, and ready to receive a new revelation from God if he was sure of its genuineness.
The fact that he came by night does not necessarily mean that he was timid, though in the light of the later references to him in this gospel, he does not seem to have been aggressive in his discipleship (7:45-52; 19:38-42). His salutation was courteous, and he showed no sign of hostility.

3 Jesus' reply to Nicodemus's opening statement was cryptic and abrupt. He informed Nicodemus that no one could even see the kingdom of God without a spiritual rebirth. Birth is our mode of entrance into the world. To be “born again [GK G540]” (or “born from above,” the preferable translation; see NIV note) means the transformation of a person so that he or she is able to enter another world and adapt to its conditions. To belong to the heavenly kingdom, one must be born into it.

4 Nicodemus's reply may be interpreted in two ways. At first sight he appears to be quite materialistic in his attitude, thinking that Jesus was advocating what was impossible–a second physical birth. On the other hand, perhaps he meant, “How can a man whose habits and ways of thinking have been fixed by age expect to change radically?” Physical rebirth is impossible, but is spiritual change any more feasible?

5 In response, Jesus repeated his solemn assertion and expanded on it with reference to water and Spirit. What did Jesus mean by “water” and “Spirit”? Since he wanted to clarify his teaching for Nicodemus, he would naturally use familiar terms. Furthermore, since his ministry came shortly after that of John the Baptist, Jesus was probably referring to John's preaching, which dealt with the baptism of water (signifying repentance) and with the coming messenger of God who would endow humans with the Holy Spirit (1:31-33). The new birth is conditioned on the repentance and confession of the individual in response to the appeal of God and by the transformation of life by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

6-8 Jesus asserted that the entrance into the kingdom of God that Nicodemus desired could not be achieved by legalism or outward conformity. It requires an inner change and is given only by the direct act of God. Just as the origin and the destination of the wind are unknown to the one who feels it, similarly the new life of one born of the Spirit is unexplainable by ordinary reasoning; and its outcome is unpredictable, though its actuality is undeniable.

9 Nicodemus's question “How can this be?” should not be interpreted as an exclamation expressing incredulity. Rather, it is a plea for direction. He wanted to know how this experience could become his. Nothing in the Judaism he knew offered anything like this. The answer of Jesus accords with the words of Ezekiel in Eze 36:25-28.
Proselytes to Judaism were washed completely, issued new clothing, and then received into the commonwealth of the people of God; but Israelites were regarded as sons of Abraham and children of God by covenant from birth. In effect, Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his descent from Abraham was not adequate ground for salvation. He would have to repent and begin a new life in the Spirit if he expected to enter the kingdom of God (cf. 8:37-44).
Jesus illustrated his point by a play on words applicable both in Hebrew and Greek. The word translated “spirit” also means “wind” (GK G4460). Verse 8 could be rendered “The Spirit breathes where he wills.” NIV and other translations are undoubtedly correct in using “wind,” for the allusion to sound in the second sentence would not make much sense in sequence with “spirit.” Possibly Nicodemus called on Jesus at the time when the evening wind was blowing through the city, so that it was a ready illustration.

10 The Greek text uses the definite article with “teacher” : “Are you the teacher of Israel?” (lit. tr.). Nicodemus's exact position in the theological circles of Israel is not defined, but the language suggests that he was an important person. Jesus implies that he should have been familiar with the teaching of the new birth. Evidently Jesus felt that since the OT contained this teaching in principle, those who read the Scriptures were responsible for knowing and believing the truth.

11 No doubt Nicodemus thought Jesus to be presumptuous when he said, “We speak of what we know.” Jesus spoke with an air of authority (see comment on Mk 1:22). Jesus' use of “we” is unusual. Perhaps his disciples were present and he was including them. Or Jesus may have been speaking as the earthly representative of the godhead. Throughout the years God's “people” had rejected his instruction as ministered through the prophets and the Scriptures. And things were no different now.

12-13 The “earthly things” (GK G2103) Jesus alluded to were probably the phenomena he used for illustrations, such as the wind. If Nicodemus was unable to grasp the meaning of spiritual truth as conveyed by concrete analogy, how would he do so if it were couched in an abstract statement? No one had ever entered into heaven to experience its realities directly except Jesus himself, the Son of Man, who had come from heaven. Revelation, not discovery, is the basis for faith.

14-15 The reference to a story in the Pentateuch (Nu 21:4-9) would have been familiar to Nicodemus, for the Jewish scholars spent the larger part of each day in the study of Scripture and often memorized not only the Pentateuch but the entire OT. Although Jesus did not elaborate the details of this allusion, it has several aspects applicable to the present situation. (1) The ancient Israelites were guilty o
f disobedience and a grumbling and unthankful spirit. (2) They were under the condemnation of God and were being punished for their sin. (3) The object elevated before them was the emblem of their judgment. (4) They were unable to rescue themselves. (5) The poison of the serpents was deadly, and there was no antidote for it. (6) They were urged to look at the serpent in order to receive life.
Jesus insisted that he would be “lifted up” (GK G5738), a word used elsewhere for crucifixion (8:28; 12:32-33). He was summoning people to receive him as God's provision for the cure of sin and to place complete confidence in him for the future. Such confidence or belief would ensure partaking in the life of the age to come.

c. The author's comment (3:16-21)

16 Commentators are divided as to whether vv.16-21 are a direct continuation of the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus or represent only the author's comment on Jesus' words. In either case, they express the most important message of the Gospel, emphasized elsewhere in many ways, that salvation is a gift received only by believing God for it. The nature of belief is implied in the illustration of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness (v.14). It consists of accepting something, not doing something. The result of belief is that one is freed from condemnation, receives eternal life, and lives in a relation of total honesty with God.
“Eternal” (GK G173) refers not only to the duration of existence but also to the quality of life as contrasted with futility. Eternal life is a deepening and growing experience. It can never be exhausted in any measurable span of time, but it introduces a totally new quality of life. The verb “perish” (GK G660) depicts the opposite of salvation. It means to fail completely of fulfilling God's purpose and consequently to be excluded forever from his fellowship. Its use here clearly implies that those without God are hopelessly confused in purpose, alienated from him in their affections, and futile in their efforts.
The presentation of the good news of God's love offers only two options: to believe or to perish. Eternal life, which is accepted by believing, is a gift of God and brings with it the fullest blessings God can bestow. To perish does not mean to cease to exist; it means to experience utter failure, futility, and loss of all that makes existence worthwhile.

17-18 Notwithstanding this gloomy picture of “lost” or “perish,” God's purpose toward humankind is positive; it is an attitude of love. He is not seeking an excuse to condemn human beings but is rather endeavoring to save them. His purpose in sending Jesus into the world was to show his love and to draw people to himself. If they are lost, it is because they have not committed themselves to God, the only source of life. Beginning at this point in this gospel, the contrast between belief and unbelief is increasingly exemplified. John has here defined the crux of belief and unbelief and has indicated the effects of each. The progress of both in the characters of those associated with Jesus becomes increasingly evident as the drama of this gospel unfolds.

19-21 The difference between believers and unbelievers does not lie in the guilt or innocence of either; it lies in the different attitudes they take toward the “light.” Unbelievers shrink from the light because it exposes their sin; believers willingly come to the light so that their real motives may be revealed (see also 1Jn 1:8-9). Furthermore, darkness (defined as love of evil deeds) keeps people from responding to the light (1Jn 1:5). All of us are held accountable for our actions, and the choice is ours: evil deeds or truth.

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