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Hi Terraricca.
Thanks got your post, it was very revealing. In fact I don't think you know how much… You rightly outline the following: (By the way, you are again trying to teach me about what I know)
1) There will be 144k in the first resurrection who serve with Jesus in Heaven for 1000 years
2) in that time Satan will be bound in a symbolic pit
3) After that time the rest of the dead will be resurrected and Satan will be loosed from the 'pit'
4) at the end of all time Satan and those who did not follow Christ will be destroyed
5) Then God will be with men (Where?):“Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. “
Although you did not mean to (and not for the first time) you present information that speaks against others whom you appear to support.
'God will be with Men (Mankind)' – on the Earth – where they will be in Spiritual Bodies – bodies that will live forever – not like the Natural sinful body that can decay and succumb to sin. Also, the Natural Body can produce offspring but now 'They will be like the Angels of Heaven who are neither given nor taken in marraige'. Terraricca, 'Marriage' is euphemism for Sex or, properly, Intercourse for the purpose of procreation.
(We're a little off topic).
Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,06:19) Hi Seeking.
Your examples of sightings of Angels are (By your own words) 'Manifestations of the Spirit'. Every one of them.Actually I believe a “sighting” of an un-manifested angel is possible Numbers 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Quote What is a manifestation? You yourself said that the ((Incorporeal)) Spirit manifests a corporeal body in the physical world. Actually I said “angels, “can” (the above scripture is an example of one that didn't) the only example of a spirit manifesting a body was the Holy Spirit descending as a dove on Jesus.
Quote Please understand your own words. You said that Jesus is in Heaven, which is the abode of the Spirit, the realm of the Incorporeal being, the “Invisible, bodiless, without material matter, substance or form” being… In a flesh and bone body!!! To be honest I have no idea what heaven is like, I can only connect dots from what we are told in scripture to draw a vague outline. I agree that spirits fit your description but not all Heaven's inhabitants are spirits, angels seem to fall under a different classification able to interact with us on different level then spirits.
A spirit does not have physical contact they work from within: 2 Chronicles 18:20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. 21 “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
Angels work from without to interact with us: Genesis 19:15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
Quote
You said that the Incorporeal Spirit manifests a corporeal body… Yes yes yes… Exactly… Why then say that material matter exists in the immaterial realm of the Immaterial Spirit?A Spirit in an Spiritual body??
Seeking, do you know that all of mankind will have spiritual bodies when they are raised from the dead? Even those who are to dwell on Paradise Earth. This is the first resurrection. Those of the second resurrection will be raised as themselves – as they were before they died and given the chance to live a Godly life for a period of time – then those who conform, will be changed – those that do not, will be destroyed of their body and spirit – an everlasting death.
Where does the second chance come from in scriptures?
Quote Therefore, if mankind are all Spirits in spiritual bodies what did God create flesh for? What use is a spiritual (your view) body in the physical world? To enjoy the pleasure of the new and completed Paradise Earth the Spirit in a spiritual body would have to manifest a physical and material body – in effect then, it could be that no one could be on Paradise Earth. Does scriptures not say, 'God created the Earth to be inhabited' and 'God cannot lie' and 'The word has gone out of my mouth and will not return until it is fulfilled'… Did God purpose that Mankind should go to Heaven – or did he purpose that Mankind should be perfected. He gave Mankind the right to choose his own path to that perfection but man took the wrong road by Adam. He has now been shown the right road by Jesus – and all who follow it will reach that spiritual perfection. Now, since the Spirit cannot sin, but it can be mislead by the desires of the flesh, what is it that is perfected in Man? Yes, the body… Just as Apostle Paul says, 'IT, is raised up a spiritual body'. Spirits cannot sin: 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment Guess that proves that there is more to angels then just spirit.
You asked “what did God create flesh for”, My opinion, He created it to show heaven the results of sin (in a finite environment), and to test the soul/spirit before giving it eternal life.
My opinion – Wm
Hi Mikeboll.
The ability of a Spirit to manifest a body was presented as your evidence of the use of the word 'Spiritual' in context of Spirit Beings in Heaven. Mikeboll, why? 'Ability' is not a thing that is 'Spiritual' – you need not even have used the word in 'angels have the (Spiritual) ability to manifest a body…' This was not an exercise in how to stick words together but the terminal presentation of your ideas (with evidence). Mikeboll, I'm not seeing any.
Hi Mikeboll.
'Wickedness' is not 'Personal' to an Angel alone. Humans also can be possessed of 'Spiritual Wickedness'. This then nullifies your argument. Humans also have 'Spiritual Abilities'. So this also nullifies your argument.Hi Seeking, have to read your post later.
To All………..Again Spirits are not “BEINGS” they are what is (IN) “BEINGS” They are simply put (Cognate thoughts that produce our intellects) in our minds, The confusions about what Spirit ACTUALLY is, has caused most all of religious confusion on the earth.
All “BEINGS” have BODIES made up of PHYSICAL MATTER, GOD who is SPIRIT lives vicariously (IN) and THROUGH His CREATION. That is why it say “that GOD may be ALL and (IN) you ALL”. God can do that becasue he (IS) SPIRIT. When Jesus said the Father was (IN) Him he was NO lying GOD who is Spirit was truly (IN) Jesus. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………….gene
Quote (toby @ Feb. 07 2012,03:57) Hi Terraricca. Thanks got your post, it was very revealing. In fact I don't think you know how much… You rightly outline the following: (By the way, you are again trying to teach me about what I know)
1) There will be 144k in the first resurrection who serve with Jesus in Heaven for 1000 years
2) in that time Satan will be bound in a symbolic pit
3) After that time the rest of the dead will be resurrected and Satan will be loosed from the 'pit'
4) at the end of all time Satan and those who did not follow Christ will be destroyed
5) Then God will be with men (Where?):“Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. “
Although you did not mean to (and not for the first time) you present information that speaks against others whom you appear to support.
'God will be with Men (Mankind)' – on the Earth – where they will be in Spiritual Bodies – bodies that will live forever – not like the Natural sinful body that can decay and succumb to sin. Also, the Natural Body can produce offspring but now 'They will be like the Angels of Heaven who are neither given nor taken in marraige'. Terraricca, 'Marriage' is euphemism for Sex or, properly, Intercourse for the purpose of procreation.
(We're a little off topic).
tobyyou are not reading my description and have not accepted my agreement as far that it concerns me I will not answer YOU any more in this subject,
it seems to me that you are a mill of words and a drum of sounds no one can make sens of;
to me the scriptures are not a luffing matter ,IT IS THE WORD OF GOD,this you make take not as I do but that is the way it is,
Pierre
Hi Seeking.
Thankyou for your post.OK, my thoughts:
1) Angels are Spirits – they are messenging Spirits
2) Heaven is the realm of the Incorporeal Being – Spirits
3) God 'Opened' the eyes of Balaam… The Angel Spirit in bodily form was there all the time and the donkey saw it. But Balaam's eyes were closed by his desire to do wickedness (He was ignoring the wickedness of the act he was about to commit against God's order to him.)Seeking, do you know what the story is about and how it turned out? Do you ever have your eyes 'Closed' against the truth of what is being said or shown you? Do you close your own eyes to the Angel of Truth standing in front of you?
4) The 'dots' that you are connecting are not numbered so it is easy for you to mis-connect dots to form the wrong picture – especially when you are determined into your own desires and thoughts
5) Your version of why God created Flesh – Think again, Please Seeking.Hi Terraricca. Did you not quote Rev 21:3 that states that God will be with Men? And are these Men not those saved out of the world at the end of both resurrections? And are these Men not going to live forever? And if they are to live forever, will they not be in immortal bodies? They can't be Spirits because Spirits can't die anyway, can they? (Destroyed, Yes. Die, No) and Men are not Spirits, are they? I'm (not) sorry you seem to be annoyed at your own error in posting that verse as I know you would like to continue in your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the topic in this thread.
Hi Gene.
How about you and Mikeboll agreeing to drop the word 'Being' … as you rightly say it is not there in Scriptures.
Only when a deeper meaning is required should the embellishment be added.
“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Truth' is not a 'Being'.
“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Wisdom, Love, Righteousness, …' are not 'Beings'.
Can you and Mikeboll move on, Please??Quote (toby @ Feb. 06 2012,04:46) Hi Mikeboll.
'Wickedness' is not 'Personal' to an Angel alone. Humans also can be possessed of 'Spiritual Wickedness'.
And how about “spiritual wickedness IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS”?Would that still apply to human beings as well?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 06 2012,14:16) Hi Gene.
How about you and Mikeboll agreeing to drop the word 'Being'…………“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Truth' is not a 'Being'.
“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Wisdom, Love, Righteousness, …' are not 'Beings'.
Can you and Mikeboll move on, Please??
But are we intelligent enough to know that the disciples in Luke 24:37 thought they were seeing a spirit BEING? That is the question.Because once Gene has acknowledged what the rest of the world already knows about that verse, then he will be able to understand that sometimes in scripture, the word “spirit” refers to a spirit BEING, and not to the animating life force within a being.
He will then be able to understand that when Paul says all angels are ministering spirits, he means that they are ministering spirit BEINGS.
He will be able to understand that when Paul tells us the last Adam became a life-giving spirit, he meant that Jesus is now a spirit BEING in heaven.
Toby, can't you see how many truths this will open up for Gene – just by accepting what the rest of us already know?
Gene, if I said, “David is a human”, don't you know that I mean David is a human BEING? Why then, don't you know that Paul means the same thing about angels?
Jodi Lee is now on board with this. These are her words from the “Is Jesus still a man in heaven?” thread:
Mike,Good point on spirit beings, verses human beings and how it is implied. That was a lame point on my part, thanks!
See Gene? Your staunchest supporter has now seen the light. You can read the discussion here, 9th post.
The question remains: When will YOU put away your pride and acknowledge what Jodi has now acknowledged?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2012,07:32) Quote (toby @ Feb. 06 2012,04:46) Hi Mikeboll.
'Wickedness' is not 'Personal' to an Angel alone. Humans also can be possessed of 'Spiritual Wickedness'.
And how about “spiritual wickedness IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS”?Would that still apply to human beings as well?
Mikeboll, and how about 'Spiritual Wickedness in the Church' (Teaching falseness about God and Christ).
Mikeboll, 'in high places' just means in a specific place. It is not particular to Angels only.Hi Toby,
From Barnes:
In high places – ἐν τοῖς ἐπουράνιοις – “in celestial or heavenly places.” The same phrase occurs in Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:6, where it is translated, “in heavenly places.” The word (ἐπουράνιος epouranios) is used of those that dwell in heaven, Matthew 18:35; Philippians 2:10; of those who come from heaven, 1 Corinthians 15:48; Philippians 3:21; of the heavenly bodies, the sun, moon, and stars, 1 Corinthians 15:40.That makes a pretty good case that it refers to the heavenly realms.
Quote (toby @ Feb. 07 2012,07:16) Hi Gene.
How about you and Mikeboll agreeing to drop the word 'Being' … as you rightly say it is not there in Scriptures.
Only when a deeper meaning is required should the embellishment be added.
“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Truth' is not a 'Being'.
“”We”” are intelligent enough to know that 'Spirit of Wisdom, Love, Righteousness, …' are not 'Beings'.
Can you and Mikeboll move on, Please??
Toby……….I am intelligent enough that is not the problem here it is MIKE who insists SPIRITS are being no me i have said all along they are not beings but what is (IN) Beings. Mike think there is all kinds of meaning to the word Spirit not I and he is stuck on one scripture that he believe say that even though it does not say that at all. So he comes up with this “IT COULD” or 'ISN'T IS POSSIBLE ” STUFF then he creates his own Scenario and treys to pin you with a Just answer “YES or NO” Crap. He builds his own case even if it does bot meet the many scripture we have all posted over and over and over and over. He can't seem to acknowledge them as right. Seem like Mike and his Co-harts just want to be right even if they are wrong about everything we discuss here.I wish he could at least acknowledge some of the scriptures we post here as right once in a while, Maybe His pride has got the best of him> He only agree with T8 about everything he posts , and pats his little buddy Pierre on the head now and then. IMO
So the Spirit as a “BEING” Bit is his doing not mine, Brother.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
To all………It would help if we know for sure what is a “HEAVENLY” REALM, Where is it, is it in space , in the sky, in the air, in our atmosphere, or is it a Position of Thought that is higher then ours, exactly what is it and where is it. If anyone knows please fill free to inform us.
Peace and love to you all…………………………………………………………gene
Hi Mikeboll.
Sorry, but exactly what is your point again?
Are you trying to prove that Spirits have bodies by hanging off the word 'Spiritual'?
Is that all of the 480 pages of attempts at a proof come down to?Quote (toby @ Feb. 07 2012,20:23) Hi Mikeboll.
Sorry, but exactly what is your point again?
Are you trying to prove that Spirits have bodies by hanging off the word 'Spiritual'?
Is that all of the 480 pages of attempts at a proof come down to?
tobythe word spiritual means one thing
but Paul says SPIRITUAL BODY THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING
IT MEANS THAT IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD LIKE HEAVENLY DWELLINGS OF GOD, BEINGS(spirit beings)HAVE A BODY ,SCRIPTURES DO NOT SAY WHAT IS THE MATERIAL USED FOR IT ,BUT WE KNOW TROUGH SCRIPTURES THAT IT IS NOT FLESH ;GOT IT
Pierre
Hi Terraricca.
The word 'Spiritual' is more often used in context of Earthly Beings. Its meaning is similar to, but not exactly 'Supernatural'.
So, 'Spiritual Love' does not mean 'Spirits having sex with each other' but 'People… Caring in a Godly way (love) but not a physical care but a mindful care': if a man said they had 'Spiritual Love' for you – would you run a mile from them (I'm presuming…!!!) or would you engage with them in a 'Spiritual Embrace' (return the 'Spiritual Love').
The term 'Spiritual Forces' does not mean 'Spirit Forces' nor 'Spirits using force' but 'Supernatural Forces' as opposed to 'Natural Forces' – forces of the mind and spirit (small 's').
Paul is talking concerning mankind's struggle with his 'Spiritual Life' – the struggle, not with the carnal flesh, but with thoughts towards Godly things, the mind acting in 'Spiritual ways' to accomplish 'Spiritual enlightenment'. When the Mind has attained that enlightenment then the desires of flesh are tamed.This is what is referred to as:
– 'Putting off the old man and putting on the new man'.
– Dying in the flesh but living in the spirit.
– Being 'Not of the earth'
A 'Spiritual State' achievable by a pre-Dead-and-Resurrected man.
Terraricca, note that the verse states 'Spiritual Forces of wickedness (Or Darkness) in Heavenly places'.
This means 'Bad thoughts emanating from evil Spirits such as Satan and other Angels that infiltrate our minds and thoughts.My point to Mikeboll is that these 'Spiritual forces' are not unique to Angels – the point is must – it is an irrelevance. I don't see what point is trying to made, except trying to force the term 'Spiritual Bodies' to mean 'Spirits with Bodies'.
See, try 'Spiritual Minds': 'Spirits with Minds'…?
What about 'Spiritual House': 'Spirit Houses'…I asked for some sentences to be produced using the word 'Spiritual' as pertains Spirit Beings in the spirit realm and the only thing which could be produced was 'Spirits manifesting bodies in the physical world' (or words to that effect).
Is that a valid example?
Yet I produced loads of them from the Human perspective (Did you notice as you read what I wrote above?).Terraricca, 'Spirit' is defined as 'Immaterial, incorporeal, bodiless, without shape or form'.
How do you then insist that it must have material, be corporeal, have a body and be with Shape and Form?
('shape and form' here mean the same thing – not 'Form' as in 'Flesh' or 'Spirit').Terraricca, why don't you answer questions instead of just posting scathing remarks to others – thank you.
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