Do spirits have bodies?

[seekingtruth]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 04 2012,12:17)

Hi Seeking.  You make some interesting points, thankyou.  However, like the views of some others, they don't all add up to me.. 'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from? What is it that is raised up from the dead? What is it that is made glorious? What is it that is made Powerful? What is it that becomes Spiritual? Ccn you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven.    Thank you.

'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from?
I don't believe in a “spirit” body, I do however believe that some spirits have bodies (big difference). I.E. We are bodies with spirits

What is it that is raised up from the dead?
Luke 24:39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.

What is it that is made glorious?
Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

What is it that is made Powerful?
Romans 1:3-4 The Good News is about God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. As a human, he was born from the family of David, but through the Holy Spirit he was shown to be God’s powerful Son when he was raised from death.

What is it that becomes Spiritual?
1 Corinthians 15:44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body.

When our physical body is raised it will be a spiritual body, Jesus was raised and He described His spiritual body as still having flesh and bones.

I believe a glorious body (spiritual body) is one where the desires of the flesh are no longer what will control us, as our “being” will have been permanently changed to one fulfilling instead the desires of the spirit (a spirit in communion with God). And that will be an immortal “spiritual” (yet corporeal) body.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.  I believe a spiritual body this will become effortless. I posted this about 30 pages ago:

I maintain that our “flesh” (this physical body) houses our spirit and soul. We currently live a life dominated by the flesh (a human being), after we are transformed (we shall be like Him) we will no longer war against the flesh as it shall no longer have dominion over us, but we will perpetually walk by the Spirit (a spiritual being).

Can you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven.
The lack of evidence that He changed after He told us what He was.

So let me ask you to define what is a spiritual body?

Wm

[seekingtruth]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 04 2012,18:30)

Seeking: Jesus is a Spirit in Heaven now.  I would urge you not to make this a point of expanded discussion.  It's just distraction.

Please read Mikes first post, I am on topic and a major point to what I'm presenting is that Jesus has flesh.

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All beings in Heaven are Spirits – the question is: “Do they have bodies!”

I would say that all beings in Heaven are/have Spirits – no question that some have bodies!”

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So far the following has been established: 1) God does not… (But, metaphorically only, the 'Body' of God is the whole of creation and as such a special case it has been agreed to exclude God from further examination)

I do not believe that God can be contained by His creation

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2) The Holy Spirit… (The perfect example of the bodiless spirit – and has therefore also been excluded from further examination)

Agreed

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3) Jesus… (Every expression concerning Jesus in Heaven refers to him as 'A Spirit'. The most prominent of these is '….Jesus…, who is in the form of God…' (This does not mean he was God… But 'in the same form as God' meaning A spirit… And we know that Scriptures says 'God is a Spirit' or (God is in the form of Spirit) No Scripture concerning Jesus in Heaven claims that Jesus is in a body.  The only reference to any kind of 'body of Jesus' is 'The body of Jesus is the Church' – another metaphorical body as with God)

I disagree He told us He had a flesh and bone body and we're never told that it changed.

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4) Angels… (These have so far been the least examined, from what I could see – in this thread.  Avoided – for very good reason by those trying futily to proof Spirits have bodies!!)

I posted most of this earlier:
I believe there are those such as angels who have spiritual bodies, not made from the stuff of our reality, but able to temporarily manifest a corporeal body if desired for operating within our realm (although they can crossover without manifesting).

Scripture tells us that it is possible to see their (non-manifested) bodies, as we're told God opened the young man's eyes (Not that He changed them so they could be seen) this also means they are not made of flesh or God would not have had to alter their perception to see them. Genesis 19:10

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.There are plenty of cases where angels are seen by all and some where they were able to physically interact with people. Why was there no mention of eyes being opened, because they already were physical manifestations.

However the angels seem to be spiritual beings (a spirit housed in a “spiritual” body) that are well suited for interfacing with our reality.  

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By the way, Seeking, I'm surprised that you can't understand that Revelations is all symbolism.  Jesus, for instance, is variously represented as a man with a double-edged sword for a tongue and flaming eyes, as 'A Lamb as if slaughtered' –  and as an giant Angel who bestrides a river.   You may have also seen references to Angels with wings… Yet no reference is ever made to an Angel having wings when seen by mankind…(why might that be do you think?).

I agree there is symbolism in Revelation, but I disagree that it is all symbolism. Symbolism is used to expand on truths. Jesus is a man and His words are a double-edged sword (symbolism) But when John tells us that these angels have a “human” appearance in heaven (hands, arms, legs, etc.) I believe there would be no purpose to that part of the revelation being symbolic.  I also don't know of any scripture that says angels have wings (cherubs do).

I entered this topic asking for scriptural proof of a change at ascension, but so far all I've gotten is circular reasoning.

My opinion – Wm

[toby]

Thank you Mikeboll for your reply.

[toby]

Hi Seeking.

Your examples of sightings of Angels are (By your own words) 'Manifestations of the Spirit'.  Every one of them.  

What is a manifestation?   You yourself said that the ((Incorporeal)) Spirit manifests a corporeal body in the physical world.  Please understand your own words.  You said that Jesus is in Heaven, which is the abode of the Spirit, the realm of the Incorporeal being, the “Invisible, bodiless, without material matter, substance or form” being… In a flesh and bone body!!!

You said that the Incorporeal Spirit manifests a corporeal body… Yes yes yes… Exactly… Why then say that material matter exists in the immaterial realm of the Immaterial Spirit?

A Spirit in an Spiritual body??

Seeking, do you know that all of mankind will have spiritual bodies when they are raised from the dead?  Even those who are to dwell on Paradise Earth.  This is the first resurrection.  Those of the second resurrection will be raised as themselves – as they were before they died and given the chance to live a Godly life for a period of time – then those who conform, will be changed – those that do not, will be destroyed of their body and spirit – an everlasting death.

Therefore, if mankind are all Spirits in spiritual bodies what did God create flesh for?   What use is a spiritual (your view) body in the physical world?  To enjoy the pleasure of the new and completed Paradise Earth the Spirit in a spiritual body would have to manifest a physical and material body – in effect then, it could be that no one could be on Paradise Earth.  Does scriptures not say, 'God created the Earth to be inhabited' and 'God cannot lie' and 'The word has gone out of my mouth and will not return until it is fulfilled'…  Did God purpose that Mankind should go to Heaven – or did he purpose that Mankind should be perfected.  He gave Mankind the right to choose his own path to that perfection but man took the wrong road by Adam.  He has now been shown the right road by Jesus – and all who follow it will reach that spiritual perfection.  Now, since the Spirit cannot sin, but it can be mislead by the desires of the flesh, what is it that is perfected in Man?  Yes, the body… Just as Apostle Paul says, 'IT, is raised up a spiritual body'.

With the answer to Q1.  Perhaps the desire to claim that Spirits have bodies is driving some towards distractions of the mind such that they see Spirits with their naked eyes in Heaven.  For sure, though, as Scriptures says, 'To see by the Spirit one must first become Spiritual' (Note here: you don't have to physically die and reborn by the Holy Spirit… to 'See by the Spirit' – it is a figure of speech which means 'To think pure and righteous thoughts and act in a Godly manner'…  'To be spiritually minded'.  It does not mean 'To become a Spirit'  – because the disciples and thousands of flesh and blood human beings became 'Spiritual' while on Earth and still died.

[toby]

Hi Seeking.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 05 2012,01:05)

'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from? I don't believe in a “spirit” body, I do however believe that some spirits have bodies (big difference). I.E. We are bodies with spirits

Yes.  Some spirits have bodies, that is quite obvious.  Genesis 1 states that God created the man and blew the breathe of life (His Spirit) into him and the man became a Living Soul – a living Human Being.  This also applies to the Animals, to Fish, to Birds.  Yes, the spirit of Earthly Beings are in bodies of flesh.  So from your statement, the 'not some' are Heavenly Spirits.  Good – Good.

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What is it that is raised up from the dead? Luke 24:39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.

Yes.  But even simpler: 1 Corinthians 15 says 'It' is the flesh and bone (and blood) bodies of the dead, nothing more, nothing less!  The Spirit cannot die therefore it has no bearing here.

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What is it that is made glorious? Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Seeking, that doesn't really answer the question.  What is (the) 'It' that is made glorious?  The answer is in 1 Corinthians 15: 44 – The flesh and bone (and blood) body of the dead.

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What is it that is made Powerful? Romans 1:3-4 The Good News is about God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. As a human, he was born from the family of David, but through the Holy Spirit he was shown to be God’s powerful Son when he was raised from death.

Seeking, your answer has relevance but is slightly misinterpreted.  Romans 1:3-4 states that Jesus is the Son of God with power, relating to his being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit.  This 'With Power' is what is echoed in 1 Corinthians 15:43, '…'It' is raised in power'.

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What is it that becomes Spiritual? 1 Corinthians 15:44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body.

The text does not say 'Physical' – Seeking, why have you changed the word from Natural to Physical?  This changes the context of the verse.  Only by using the word 'Natural' to 'Physical' can you then make your claim that the 'Spiritual Body' is not a 'Physical Body'.  Seeking, given the blind chance to retract the change of word, would you do so, now?

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When our physical body is raised it will be a spiritual body, Jesus was raised and He described His spiritual body as still having flesh and bones.

(Again – not Physical but Natural) Spiritual here means : Sinless, Incorruptible, Glorious, Powerful.

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I believe a glorious body (spiritual body) is one where the desires of the flesh are no longer what will control us, as our “being” will have been permanently changed to one fulfilling instead the desires of the spirit (a spirit in communion with God). And that will be an immortal “spiritual” (yet corporeal) body.

Of this I agree, and you may have missed it but I too have written concerning this exact change.  This is indeed the actions and intent of the Spiritual Person (The Spirit and the incorruptible Body that can no longer sin nor die but will exist forever)

Seeking, if the reference was concerning the Spirit, why would it need another body if it were going straight to Heaven?  For what purpose are the dead in Christ raised up in a Body of flesh and blood if their transition is to go (Directly) to the Incorporeal realm?

Sorry, I keep writing, but for many here there is a disconnect between the Body (of Jesus) being raised up (Flesh and bone – don't stress over the blood – it was spilt as the sacrifice as Scriptures says) and Jesus clearly stating that he was a human being in a flesh and bone body at his being raised from the dead.  At what point did the flesh and bone body of Jesus that was raised up suddenly and without reference turn into a 'SpiritUAL Body' that was not flesh and blood'??

How do you say at one point you believe his (Reborn – Spiritual) body was flesh and bone – and at another that it is some other type of body?  I do not understand that.

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Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.  I believe a spiritual body this will become effortless. I posted this about 30 pages ago: I maintain that our “flesh” (this physical body) houses our spirit and soul. We currently live a life dominated by the flesh (a human being), after we are transformed (we shall be like Him) we will no longer war against the flesh as it shall no longer have dominion over us, but we will perpetually walk by the Spirit (a spiritual being). Can you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven. The lack of evidence that He changed after He told us what He was.

This is true.  But, why did you stop short in your quote (I ignored the last two words above).  Verse 6 states: 'To be carnally minded means death, but to be spiritually minded means life and peace'  This shows it is the 'Mind' that is spiritual as regards those in a mortal body.  A body as yet not reborn from death (or at the last trumpet) by the Holy Spirit.  These verse, therefore, do not reference the question but have relevance to the fact that being spiritual is not about being a Spirit… Man will still be Man on the Earth in a body of flesh and bone and blood and live forever as the flesh and bone and blood body will be spiritually maintained – unlike the natural flesh and bone and blood body that is subject to corruption, sin, decay and death.  How is it then that verse 8 state: 'So then, those that are in the flesh cannot please God'. Was Jesus not in the flesh?

Then this 'Flesh' does not mean 'Material Matter' but 'Sin'.  But this is a who
le new chapter…

And how about verse 11 that states that the Spirit of God will give 'Life to your mortal bodies' – this then is a spiritual body – the mortal body made 'Immortal' through the Spirit of God indwelling the flesh.

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Can you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven. The lack of evidence that He changed after He told us what He was.

Therefore your answer also applies in reverse to you too.  So this being a stand off, you cannot use this as your proof.  My addition is that Jesus is a Spirit Being in Heaven now – but was a Human Being on Earth.  The Human Being on Earth has a body of flesh, but the Spirit Being in Heaven does not have a body of any kind, and there is not a single verse in the whole of Scriptures that states this – no?  Prove it!!  Show it!!  Reference it!!  PS: Symbolism and metaphysics are not valid proofs.

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So let me ask you to define what is a spiritual body? Wm

The Spiritual Body is defined in 1 Corinthians 15:44.  'It (the flesh body) is sown (put into the ground/grave) a natural (Sinful, corruptible, inglorious due to the sin of Adam) body (Seeking: The text does not say 'Physical'), it (the same flesh body) is raised a Spiritual (Sinless, Incorruptible, Glorious by the blood of Christ Jesus) body. Therefore in summary, the Spiritual Body:

1) Is Incorruptible
2) Has 'Power'
3) Is Glorious
4) Is opposed to the Natural Body.

The spiritual Man is opposed to the natural Man (yet both human beings).  Do we create a new name for a human being in a spiritual (as you perceive it) body? (Perhaps an MANgel?)  Is a human being with a 'SpiritUAL' body (as you perceive it) still a human being?  Is there any reference to 'A human being' in Heaven other than through allegory and symbolism?  What is a human being but the spirit of the man in a flesh body – as Paul states, as of the animals and fish and birds.  Paul makes no reference to any flesh based entity being in heaven.

Seeking.  What is a spiritual Man?…  A man who is a Spirit?  What is a spiritual Mind?..  One with a Spirit in it?  What is the spiritual law (Romans 7:14)?  In all cases of the use of the word 'Spiritual', it is in reference to 'Righteousness, Truthfulness, Powerfulness, Gloriousness, etc).  Is the scriptural law a Spirit?  Is the Law (Commands of God) not righteous, is it not Glorious, is it not Powerful and Glorious in execution?

Sorry such a long post.

[terraricca]

toby

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Seeking, do you know that all of mankind will have spiritual bodies when they are raised from the dead? Even those who are to dwell on Paradise Earth

could you help me to find the scriptures for this view ,it seems I can't remember where it is

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 04 2012,17:08)

What is the spiritual law (Romans 7:14)?  In all cases of the use of the word 'Spiritual', it is in reference to 'Righteousness, Truthfulness, Powerfulness, Gloriousness, etc).

Hi Toby,

I'm not looking to have a novel sent back to me, but just wanted to make one point.

Ephesians 6:12 NET ©
For our struggle 1  is not against flesh and blood, 2  but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, 3  against the spiritual forces 4  of evil in the heavens. 5

Footnote #4 says:
πνευματικός  suggests “the spirit-forces of evil” in Ephesians 6:12.

My point is simply this:  I understand what you are saying.  I understand that the term “spiritual body” could even be used to describe the body of the Church of Christ.  But why can't you admit that, just like “spiritual forces” refers to the forces of spirit beings, a “spiritual body” could also refer to the body of a spirit being?

It is not all black and white here.  The word “spiritual” could refer to many things, one of which is clearly “that which belongs to a spirit”, such as “spiritual forces of evil”, or “spiritual powers”, both of which cleary refer to things belonging to spirit beings.

Toby, I don't want to recall our whole discussion here.  I just want this one simple question answered:

Is is possible for the term “spiritual” to refer to something that BELONGS TO a spirit being?  YES or NO?

[toby]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,12:24)

Is is possible for the term “spiritual” to refer to something that BELONGS TO a spirit being?  YES or NO?

Mikeboll, I think you should know by now that I would not answer such a question with a 'Yes' or 'No' answer.

However, here is my response:
Here are a number of references to 'Spiritual x'.  Can you outline which one(s) of them pertain to meaning 'Belonging to a Spirit' in the way you are suggesting:

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you,

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they are in debt to them, for if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings.

1Cr 2:13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.

1Cr 2:15The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

1Cr 3:1But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.

1Cr 9:11If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?

1Cr 10:3And did all eat the same spiritual meat.

1Cr 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Cr 12:1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed.

1Cr 14:1Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

1Cr 14:37If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.

1Cr 15:44It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Cr 15:46But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

Gal 6:1Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Eph 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

Eph 5:19  Addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart.

Eph 6:12For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Col 1:9And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding.

Col 3:16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

1Pe 2:5And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

As I wait your response, I will address your question more directly.

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'Is is possible for the term “spiritual” to refer to something that BELONGS TO a spirit being?  YES or NO?'

Credible dictionaries do indeed make reference to 'Spiritual' as meaning 'Belonging to a Spirit'.  However, it is not based on being a 'material attribute' of a Spirit being, but 'a supernatural feature' such as 'Thought, Godly principles, inner power, invisible actions… and so on'.  For instance, 'Spiritual gifts' are 'Gifts of the Spirit'.  What are these 'Gifts'? Are they limited to Angels, or the Holy Spirit?   So, 'spiritual powers' are not 'Angels' but 'Powers of The Spirit' – not 'Powers of A (specific) Spirit'.

Ephesians 6:12:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,  but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness,  against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.

Mikeboll, the writer is contrasting the 'powers of the flesh' with the 'powers of the maligned Spirit'.  Satan is the most prominent being who holds 'spiritual forces' that are used for evil purposes.  These same 'spiritual forces' are equally available to human  beings through the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  However, I cannot see how you link 'spiritual forces' with being 'of a Spirit',  when all it is saying is that the forces of evil are not from a human source but from the Spirit realm (Not the 'spiritual realm' ( there is no such term or phrase) – you didn't say it but I wanted to make this clear so it did not get brought up!)

If you like, please present a few sentences using the term 'spiritual' that mean 'of the Spirit' in the way you perceive the term (Not 'Spiritual Body).  Please show how this pertains to an aspect of 'A Spirit Being' (Not The Spirit).

[toby]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2012,10:09)

toby Quote Seeking, do you know that all of mankind will have spiritual bodies when they are raised from the dead?  Even those who are to dwell on Paradise Earth could you help me to find the scriptures for this view ,it seems I can't remember where it is Pierre

Terrarica, it's how I understand it through Scripture.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,05:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,12:24) Is is possible for the term “spiritual” to refer to something that BELONGS TO a spirit being?  YES or NO? Mikeboll, I think you should know by now that I would not answer such a question with a 'Yes' or 'No' answer.

Why?  It is either possible, or it is impossible.  Which one?

Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,05:27)

If you like, please present a few sentences using the term 'spiritual' that mean 'of the Spirit' in the way you perceive the term (Not 'Spiritual Body).  Please show how this pertains to an aspect of 'A Spirit Being' (Not The Spirit).

Okay, please remember that I believe angels always have bodies, and sometimes God opens the eyes of human beings so that they can see them.  I do NOT believe that angels “manifest” bodies when they come to earth, so please don't use this example out of context later:

Angels have the spiritual ability to manifest an earthly body.

Would this not apply to the ability belonging to a spirit being?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 05 2012,01:05)

Quote (toby @ Feb. 04 2012,12:17) Hi Seeking.  You make some interesting points, thankyou.  However, like the views of some others, they don't all add up to me.. 'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from? What is it that is raised up from the dead? What is it that is made glorious? What is it that is made Powerful? What is it that becomes Spiritual? Ccn you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven.    Thank you. 'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from? I don't believe in a “spirit” body, I do however believe that some spirits have bodies (big difference). I.E. We are bodies with spirits What is it that is raised up from the dead? Luke 24:39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having. What is it that is made glorious? Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. What is it that is made Powerful? Romans 1:3-4 The Good News is about God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. As a human, he was born from the family of David, but through the Holy Spirit he was shown to be God’s powerful Son when he was raised from death. What is it that becomes Spiritual? 1 Corinthians 15:44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. When our physical body is raised it will be a spiritual body, Jesus was raised and He described His spiritual body as still having flesh and bones. I believe a glorious body (spiritual body) is one where the desires of the flesh are no longer what will control us, as our “being” will have been permanently changed to one fulfilling instead the desires of the spirit (a spirit in communion with God). And that will be an immortal “spiritual” (yet corporeal) body. Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.  I believe a spiritual body this will become effortless. I posted this about 30 pages ago: I maintain that our “flesh” (this physical body) houses our spirit and soul. We currently live a life dominated by the flesh (a human being), after we are transformed (we shall be like Him) we will no longer war against the flesh as it shall no longer have dominion over us, but we will perpetually walk by the Spirit (a spiritual being). Can you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven. The lack of evidence that He changed after He told us what He was. So let me ask you to define what is a spiritual body? Wm

Seekingtruth……………You have posted it right brother. Our “BODIES”will be resurected with Power and Glory as opposed to its former state of weakness,and sinfulness, and we will no longer have our carnal weaknesses as our resurected bodies will be Spiritually empowered. That is what a SPIRITUAL BODY that Paul was talking about means. You are right on brother IMO>

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

[terraricca]

GENE

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Seekingtruth……………You have posted it right brother. Our “BODIES”will be resurected with Power and Glory as opposed to its former state of weakness,and sinfulness, and we will no longer have our carnal weaknesses as our resurected bodies will be Spiritually empowered. That is what a SPIRITUAL BODY that Paul was talking about means. You are right on brother IMO> peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

THIS COULD MEAN THAT WE CAN BE RESURRECTED AS A MAN BUT PERFECT FLESHLY BODY BUT WITHOUT THE CURSE OF ANOTHER MAN SIN,RIGHT
and this would be our glory,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

I agree that will be the case for those who are resurrected to a life on earth. But what need of flesh would a being dwelling in heaven have?

[toby]

Hi Terraricca.  You seem not to want to present anything of your thoughts on the issue you present but ask questions only.  How about you outline what you think will be the fate of mankind and of the Earth.

Here are a few pointers:
1) God purposed that man should develop the earth in the style given to him as examples by the Garden of Eden.
– God will see that purpose fulfilled. How?

2) Scriptures tell us that there will be some who go to Heaven from the first resurrection.
Those from the second resurrection will not go to heaven but will remain on the earth in Paradise (Heaven is not that Paradise)

3) All mankind of the second resurrection who are living after the 'sifting of the good and bad' will be in Everlasting Bodies on the earth.

4) All of mankind resurrected are eventually in Spiritual Bodies – how then can those who go to Heaven be in a 'different' Spiritual Body from those who remain on the Earth?

Terraricca, that is why the very desparate misinterpretation of the term 'Spiritual Body' is so wrong – wrong – wrong!

To make Scriptures work after that means even more 'fudging' or simply 'never addressing other clearly detailed aspects that are related'.  This is why no one else rises to the challenge of outlining how they reach their ideas – they would expose their errors – so they Refuse to answer – just as when Jesus asked questions of the Jews and they could not answer.  What was their reaction.

[toby]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2012,00:33)

Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,05:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,12:24) Is is possible for the term “spiritual” to refer to something that BELONGS TO a spirit being?  YES or NO? Mikeboll, I think you should know by now that I would not answer such a question with a 'Yes' or 'No' answer. Why?  It is either possible, or it is impossible.  Which one? Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,05:27) If you like, please present a few sentences using the term 'spiritual' that mean 'of the Spirit' in the way you perceive the term (Not 'Spiritual Body).  Please show how this pertains to an aspect of 'A Spirit Being' (Not The Spirit). Okay, please remember that I believe angels always have bodies, and sometimes God opens the eyes of human beings so that they can see them.  I do NOT believe that angels “manifest” bodies when they come to earth, so please don't use this example out of context later: Angels have the spiritual ability to manifest an earthly body. Would this not apply to the ability belonging to a spirit being?

Hi Mikeboll.  I carried out a large number of google searches trying to find a scriptural rendering of 'Spiritual Ability' that was related to a Spirit Being – and found none.  In point of fact, all usage of the term 'Spiritual Ability/ies' were in relationship to Mankind and not 'Spirit Beings'.  

You can do this yourself – if you find something then show me where.

I also asked for 'a few' examples so I could examine your usage of the term 'Spiritual'.  If you wish to pursue this issue then please present other examples which relate to 'Spirit Beings'.

((As a secondary point, you say that you do not believe that Angels 'manifest' bodies when they come to earth – but then use the term 'Manifest' as part of your example to exactly say that 'Angels have the Spiritual Ability to Manifest an earthly body?))

[mikeboll64]

Toby, are you saying that it is NOT an ability belonging to a spirit being to manifest a body?   Is it an ability belonging to a human being?

Here is another one for you:

Matthew 18:10
See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Would you consider that angels have the SPIRITUAL ABILITY to see the face of God – something that human beings can not do?

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll.

Are you saying that you now believe that a Bodiless (Incorporeal) Spirit can manifest a body (Corporeal) in the physical world?

'Angels seeing the Face of God'…
What has that to do with being Spiritual?
Are you just adding the word 'Spiritual' to anything you can think of instead of constructing valid and viable evidence?
Mikeboll, your point was to justify the use of the term 'Spiritual' in terms of the aspect of its definition stating 'Belonging to a Spirit' by way of examples from Scriptures pertaining to Spirit Beings.

[terraricca]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 06 2012,14:01)

Hi Terraricca.  You seem not to want to present anything of your thoughts on the issue you present but ask questions only.  How about you outline what you think will be the fate of mankind and of the Earth. Here are a few pointers: 1) God purposed that man should develop the earth in the style given to him as examples by the Garden of Eden. – God will see that purpose fulfilled. How? 2) Scriptures tell us that there will be some who go to Heaven from the first resurrection. Those from the second resurrection will not go to heaven but will remain on the earth in Paradise (Heaven is not that Paradise) 3) All mankind of the second resurrection who are living after the 'sifting of the good and bad' will be in Everlasting Bodies on the earth. 4) All of mankind resurrected are eventually in Spiritual Bodies – how then can those who go to Heaven be in a 'different' Spiritual Body from those who remain on the Earth? Terraricca, that is why the very desparate misinterpretation of the term 'Spiritual Body' is so wrong – wrong – wrong! To make Scriptures work after that means even more 'fudging' or simply 'never addressing other clearly detailed aspects that are related'.  This is why no one else rises to the challenge of outlining how they reach their ideas – they would expose their errors – so they Refuse to answer – just as when Jesus asked questions of the Jews and they could not answer.  What was their reaction.

toby

Quote

Hi Terraricca. You seem not to want to present anything of your thoughts on the issue you present but ask questions only. How about you outline what you think will be the fate of mankind and of the Earth.

yes i will answer your question on one condition ;and that is that if you do not agree with my description and scriptures presented YOU HAVE TO USE SCRIPTURES TO JUSTIFY YOU DISAGREEMENT IN MY PRESENTATION AND NOT PARTS OF VERSES SO THAT IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS,(YOU CAN USE GOOGLE )

ARE ACCEPTING MY CONDITION ?

[terraricca]

toby

Quote

4) All of mankind resurrected are eventually in Spiritual Bodies – how then can those who go to Heaven be in a 'different' Spiritual Body from those who remain on the Earth?

this I can tell you is wrong ;I have no idea were you got this ;

first;Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE 1000 YEARS OF CHRIST (THIS IS EQUAL(SIMILAR) TO JOSHUA AT THE JORDAN RIVER) SATAN GONE;

THE RESURRECTION OF THE 144K HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE;
FIRST RESURRECTION;THE GREAT CROWED AND ALL THOSE FAITHFUL BELIEVERS WHO EVER LIVED STARTING FROM ABEL TO TODAY OR THAT DAY IF YOU WANT,

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

THE THRONES ARE GIVEN TO THE 144K;
THE HOLY ARE ALL THE BELIEVERS WHO EVER LIVED,(PEOPLE THAT HAVE CHOSEN TO OBEY GOD WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE ) BASICALLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THOSE 1000 YEARS IS SIMILAR TO WHAT HAPPEN WEN ISRAEL TOOK THE PROMISED LAND , EXCEPT IT WILL NOT BE DEVELOPED INTO A PARADISE IN IS TOTALITY,AND THE RESURRECTION WILL NOT BE AT ONES EITHER BUT PROGRESSIVE ,AND ALL THE WORKS WILL BE BLESSED BY GOD,SOME WILL BE NOMINATED FOR POSITION BUT TO HELP OTHERS NOT THEM SELF,AND SO THE EARTH WILL BE TURN INTO A PARADISE ,AFTER THE 1000 YEARS;

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
note that it says ;Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

so the second resurrection is now taking place;

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

JN 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
i have bring this verse into the light now because the people that will resurrected are those who did not knew Christ heard of him or were not chosen to be in the first resurrection,

now those of the first resurrection will teach those in the second resurrection and the judgement will now taken place as it says in;
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

AFTER A CERTAIN TIME (?)SATAN WILL BE RELEASED TO FULFILL REVELATION 20;8 AND IN TIME VERSE 9 WILL DEVELOP ITS SELF,AND SO VERSE 10;
Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
Rev 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

NOW WE ARE READY AND ALL TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE ARE TOGETHER AND READY FOR THE GREATEST BLESSING EVER

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

NOW AND THEN ;

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,16:02)

Are you saying that you now believe that a Bodiless (Incorporeal) Spirit can manifest a body (Corporeal) in the physical world?

No Toby.  And it is for this very reason that I started that post with a disclaimer charging you not to use those words out of context later.  Yet you couldn't help yourself, could you?

It is YOU who says angels can manifest a body when needed, right?  YES.  Do you also say that human beings can do this?  NO.  So, would this ability to manifest a body when needed be a SPIRITUAL ABILITY?  YES or NO?

Quote (toby @ Feb. 05 2012,16:02)

Mikeboll, your point was to justify the use of the term 'Spiritual' in terms of the aspect of its definition stating 'Belonging to a Spirit' by way of examples from Scriptures pertaining to Spirit Beings.

I did………….but I'll take it farther for you:
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

From commentator Barnes:
Against spiritual wickedness – Margin, “or wicked spirits.” Literally, “The spiritual things of wickedness;” but the allusion is undoubtedly to evil spirits, and to their influences on earth.  It is against such spirits, and all their malignant influences, that Christians are called to contend.

Clarke says:
The spiritual wickedness are supposed to be the angels which kept not their first estate; who fell from the heavenly places but are ever longing after and striving to regain them; and which have their station in the regions of the air.

Gill says:
against spiritual wickedness in high places; or wicked spirits, as the devils are, unclean, proud, lying, deceitful, and malicious; who may be said to be in “high” or “heavenly places”;

The Geneva Study Bible says:
He gives these names to the evil angels, by reason of the effects which they work: not that they are able to do the same in and of themselves, but because God gives them permission.

Wesley says:
Against wicked spirits – Who continually oppose faith, love, holiness, either by force or fraud; and labour to infuse unbelief, pride, idolatry malice, envy, anger, hatred. In heavenly places – Which were once their abode, and which they still aspire to, as far as they are permitted.

Toby, I can't help you if you're not even willing to acknowledge that a term like “spiritual wickedness” COULD BE referring to the wickedness that BELONGS TO certain spirit beings.  Keep closing your eyes to the obvious if it makes you feel better.

I didn't really want to delve head first into this whole ball of wax with you again, and I won't.

I simply noticed that one sentence you posted to Wm, and thought for sure you'd be honest enough to concede that the word “spirtual” COULD BE referring to something belonging to a spirit being.  

I was wrong, as you couldn't even answer my YES or NO question with a YES or a NO.  

Later,
mike

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