Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Quote (Delriomike @ Feb. 03 2012,12:28)

FOOD FOR THOUGHT Where was Jesus Christ when he looked at Nicademous and told he I am in heaven? Where was he? Was he really in heaven? I know he was I am in heaven also, you say that was Jesus but not you. Do you not recognize the same Jesus Christ today in 2012? When you do it unto the least you do it unto me, I just happen to be the least in the kingdom. See Nicademous was looking at Jesus thru the carnal mind that he was in so naturally he could not see him in heaven. The carnal mind cannot understand or see into the spirit world. The door was open into the spirit world and Jesus Christ was the door and now we can enter into the spirit world if you understand how to. Do you understand how to enter the spirit world? I do.

To all…………..This is true , Heaven simply means from above, While earthy means from below. those that are from above are Heavenly or Spiritually minded, and those that are from below are earthly or carnal minded. This has nothing to do with any body whatsoever, but a position of thought, intellect and conscious awareness.

A spiritual person is a mind guided by the spirit, and a Spiritual body is a “BODY” maintained by the Spirit. But it is a BODY as a Material physical Body maintained by the Spirit of Life working (IN) it. This body is from above directly from GOD as Adam's was when he was first made before he sinned and he could have lived forever with that body as GOD said he could have.

Mixing a physical material thing with Spiritual things is what is know as Metaphysical or (Platonic ideology) pagan thought. This is the source of Nealy all confusion in Christianity. Like the trinity, Preexistence and spirit BODIES etc. You can not make a Spirit as a body of any kind, that simply is a false teaching.

peace and love to you all……………………………………….gene

February 3, 2012 at 4:03 pm#275715

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (toby @ Feb. 03 2012,19:12)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 03 2012,11:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:16)

Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31)

SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?

Wm?

Toby/Mike,
I did not say it, Jesus said it. Show me justification for an undeclared “change” at the ascension, and I'll reconsider my position, otherwise I'll stick with what Jesus said.

Hi Seeking.

You are right that there is no recorded event of Jesus going into Heaven in a body of flesh and bone. Nor is there one of him being changed (or transformed) as he entered the cloud.

Also, The verse that says that flesh and blood cannot inherit (not enter) the kingdom of Heaven is not concerning 'Flesh and blood' meaning 'a body'. It is a euphemism for 'one of a SINful and Corrupt nature'.

To inherit the kingdom of heaven one must first be cleansed of sin and corruption. This is done at the resurrection.

That verse is a false proof in this thread. It is used incorrectly due to forced attempts at proofs.

However, it is true that flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven – but Not by that verse.

The realm of the Spirit is beyond the realm of the flesh world, and those who think with the flesh mind cannot conceive of the things of the Spirit, so they struggle all day long using the flesh world as their projection into the Spirit world (Bad mistake!) So, even pointing out the definition of Spirit by those who created the word, does nothing for some of these so-called scholarly ones, who project limited human nature onto the Free Spirit.

People say, Spirits have hands, feet, eyes, wings, mouths and they eat food. Really? So let's go with 'Wings'. Which Angel Spirit is described in the physical world as having wings? Mouths, feet, hands… What are these used for? What would an Incorporeal being need hands for? Wait – How can an incorporeal Being have corporeal body parts? Well, by figurativeness, analogy, metaphysics, symbolism. Or perhaps they need them when 'Climbing' in and out of Heaven on 'Jacobs Ladder'. Is it (It is) surprising that those who say that Spirits have Bodies in Heaven have not shown this exact 'proof' – that Heaven is entered and exited by way of a Ladder at one place in the physical world.

Some say that God is sitting in a chair at a fixed position in Heaven. Seeing that the physical universe is still expanding and is even yet limitless – it beats my mind to think how and where outside of the universe God is sitting looking down into it: isn't this pure Greek Mythology? Heaven is not 'Up' nor 'Down' nor 'left, right, north, south, east or west'. Jesus did not have to go Up to go to Heaven. Angels appeared, and then disappeared directly and exactly from where they were standing or sitting.

It is almost evidential that those who claim that Spirits have bodies in heaven have absolutely no proof nor evidence of any kind. How many hundred pages has shown this. Remember, it is for them to Prove that Spirits have bodies in Heaven – not for it to be Disproved. So far there is not one single shred of proof and hence all the spin off topics that abound.

I believe that the spiritual realm is dimensions beyond our own, but just as a two dimensional figure can exist within a three dimensional framework, I believe that a flesh and bone body could exist within heavens reality. I agree that we tend to assign our realities “construction” to the spirit realm which I do not believe we have hardly any concept of what the spiritual realities are. However the angels seem to be spiritual beings (a spirit housed in a “spiritual” body) that are well suited for interfacing with our reality. John tells us that these angels have a “human” appearance even in heaven (hands, arms, legs, etc.) but I don't know of any scripture that says angels have wings (cherubs do). Just to be clear there are spirits within the spiritual realm which are nothing like human (and as Gene says these are what operate within a body).

I believe scriptures tell us “He dreamed there was a ladder”. I believe this was how a spiritual portal (access between dimensions) was portrayed to him. I believe that there are several portals around the world allowing access and for the angels going through them to manifest physical bodies (but once physical they were bound by the limitations of such) to interact with man but then the manifestation could be dropped (allowing them to disappear) once their task was completed (to be free of its limitations). I base this postulation on the angel that appeared to Daniel 3 weeks late, it seems to indicate that the angel couldn't just appear anywhere he wanted but had to take a path that took him through enemies territory and in a physical manifestation he was held up.

As to the Father I believe he exists far beyond and above both our realty and the spiritual reality (unable to be contained by His creations). While His awareness permeates all creation I believe He operates vicariously through His Son and the Holy Spirit to both of these realities (just my opinion)

And no, the only “proof” that I can offer are the words of Jesus and the lack of any evidence to the contrary.

My opinion – Wm

February 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm#275717

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,12:44)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,19:33)

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

The words “who is in heaven” are thought to have been a marginal note from a scribe, that was somehow later confused as part of John's text, and added into later copies.

Most translations leave those words out of the text altogether (because many good Greek mss don't have those words in them), while other manuscripts say “who was in heaven”, or something to that effect.

There is also some thought that they were John's words, like this:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man, (who is [now] in heaven).

Jesus said the red words, and John said the black ones – or so some commentators think.

Mike……….That is not a Marginal statement by some ignorant scribe there, it is a true statement, Jesus was in Heaven He was from above in his thinking while he was walking on this earth, Just as Jesus said to GOD that the disciples they were not of the world Just as he was not of the world also. Need scripture?

John17:16…..>They (disciples) are not of the World even as I am not of the world.

They obviously were still (IN) the world Mike but they were not “OF” it. They were from above Just as Jesus was from above (heaven).

peace and love……………………………………gene

February 3, 2012 at 4:18 pm#275718

Delriomike

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2012,01:28)

Quote (Delriomike @ Feb. 03 2012,12:28)

peace and love to you all……………………………………….gene

Gene I like your understanding. You can email me [email protected] I woould love to chat with you you I think are on to the same thing that I have understood, not many people can get ahold of this.

February 3, 2012 at 7:39 pm#275733

terraricca

Participant

Quote (toby @ Feb. 04 2012,05:27)

To all, I have some questions.

Jesus was a Spirit in Heaven before coming to earth.
Jesus had a Body Prepared For Him when he came as man.

Question: if he had a body that was 'Spiritual' – as has been said in this forum – why did he have to have another body prepared for him?

The premise is this, as their point would suggest:
1) Jesus in Heaven was in a Spiritual Body.

Q1a) What was IN the Spiritual Body?
Q1b) what was the Spiritual Body made of?

2) A Body was prepared for him in the womb of Mary

Q2) Why was a body prepared for him – he already had one? (Easy answer)

3) Jesus came to earth and was born into a flesh and blood body

Q3) What happened to his 'Spiritual Body' when He came in his Flesh and Bone body?

4) God is also a Spirit Being

Q4) Does God have a body?

5) Scriptures says that the 'Body of Jesus is the Church'

Q5) If the 'Body' of Jesus is the Church – and the Church did not formerly exist…until Jesus was raised up in his glorious Flesh and Bone body, his Spiritual Body, what Body did Jesus have before?

6) Jesus was raised in a Spiritual Body which we know was Flesh and Bone

Q6a) How did Jesus Prove that his Spiritual Body was real flesh and bone (His blood was drained from the wound in his side – and as a sacrifice as per the well known prophecy).

Q6b) What events occurred surrounding the, now, Spiritual Body of Jesus that had not been recorded beforei n his previous Natural Body?

7) Jesus is in Heaven now as a Spirit Being

Q7) What happened to the Flesh and Bone body of Jesus between rising into the cloud and entering Heaven?

8) Jesus was in Heaven as a Spirit Being;
Was given a mortal body when on earth to make him a Human Being;
Jesus was killed and his mortal body made dead by the release of his Spirit;
His Mortal body was made immortal and his Spirit put back in it making it alive again;
Jesus is now back in Heaven as a Spirit Being.

Q8a) if Jesus had a body as a Spirit – what happened to it when he entered the flesh on earth?

Q8b) What BODY was his Spirit (Not Aspects of his Spirit) in when his body was in the grave?

Q8c) if Jesus came into the flesh in his Spiritual Body (a) – and was in his Spiritual Body while dead (b) then how is it said that the body was raised up 'a Spiritual Body'?

Thanks.

toby

all those questions have already been answered,

you are mixing the reason of the topic,I have explain that to you and or others,

if Christ did not exist in heaven then why God as to prepare a body for him to take wen he be living on earth ??
can a spirit in a spirit body being seen by men ?NO,so to live and be among men the Christ at to become man in a body of flesh,
to be able to inter act with men,

Pierre

February 3, 2012 at 9:15 pm#275746

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 02 2012,20:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:14)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 02 2012,17:32)

Mike,
I'm not asking for your best guess, so are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or No

I've shown you the scriptures, Wm. 1+1=2, remember?

Mike,
Considering I'm playing by your rules (answering a question asked with a yes or no) your not doing so well.

Again:

Are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or No

No Wm,

That is NOT what I'm saying at all.

Wm, WHO lives in heaven? Do human beings live in heaven or on earth? On earth, right? Do spirit beings live in heaven? Of course they do. Spirit beings do NOT have flesh and bone.

Jesus is a spirit being right now, because scripture says he is.

February 3, 2012 at 9:24 pm#275747

Blocked

Wm:

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Are two scriptures enough to believe that Jesus is now a spirit being?

February 3, 2012 at 11:11 pm#275770

seekingtruth

Participant

Mike,
I'm sorry you were upset by my quip it was meant in fun, I apologize it was not my intent to upset you.

Quote

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Over half of the translations say “soul” (as does the Greek) 1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. In this verse “soul” is specifically being contrasted to “spirit,” it no more means that Jesus was exclusively spirit, than that Adam was exclusively soul.

Quote

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Are two scriptures enough to believe that Jesus is now a spirit being?

Now if he had said “a spirit being” you might have had something. So when someone is referenced in “spirit” it excludes their having any flesh?

1 Corinthians 5:3 I cannot be there with you in person, but I am with you in spirit. (did Paul die so he could be there?)

1 Corinthians 6:17
But anyone who is joined with the Lord is one with him in spirit. (does that mean we've lost our flesh?)

Philemon 1:25
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. (while I'm still in the flesh)

Quote

Jesus is a spirit being right now, because scripture says he is.

He was a being with a spirit when He walked the earth in his flesh. I believe He still has that spirit but how does that exclude His having flesh (Like he said He did).

February 4, 2012 at 2:40 am#275798

Blocked

Hi Wm,

When Paul was “with them” in spirit, his flesh was not there beside them.

We are not joined to the Lord in flesh – we are joined to him in spirit, sans flesh.

And the grace of Jesus can be with our spirit, as OPPOSED TO our flesh.

You said:

Quote

He was a being with a spirit when He walked the earth in his flesh.

All living beings have spirit, but not all living beings are spirit beings. Jesus wasn't a spirit being after his resurrection, because he said so. But he is a spirit (being) now, because scripture says so.

To All,

I have had way too many heated moments on this thread for the last two years. You all know why I believe the way I do, and the scriptures that I think clearly tell me to believe that way. I understand that others interpret those same scriptures differently.

Wm has hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out that the correct answer to the question of this thread most likely will have no bearing whatsoever on who receives life and who receives destruction.

I just don't want to fight about this any more. I love you all, and have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to all of you for participating in it with me.

peace and love,
mike

February 4, 2012 at 3:19 am#275802

Participant

Mike………..Where in scripture does Jesus say he is a SPIRIT “BEING” or ever was ONE as far as that goes. Are you speaking for HIM Now? The last thing i recall him saying was He was “NOT” (A) SPIRIT at all. You must have a different bible then we do do , fact is you are going by a Preconceived religious belief system you learned a long time ago about spirits being SENTINEL BEINGS, a complete false concept of Greek pagan methodology. You can thank, Plato, Aristotle and their Metaphysical teaching for that. IMO

peace and love……………………………………………………………….gene

February 4, 2012 at 4:32 am#275814

Delriomike

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2012,13:19)

peace and love……………………………………………………………….gene

Mike and Gene first of all let me share soemthing with you that will help you. You cant make a dog beleive he is a horse no more than you can make a horse believe he is a dog. Whe God moves over the earth He says MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE AND A STRANGER THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW. First of all all the world religious world that is teaches you to go out and find God, right? Well let me inform you you cant find God. You cant get enough education or make enough money to find God, you wont an dont find him. He finds his lost sheep HE finds them they dont find him. See He said I HAVE NOT LOST ANY THAT THE FATHER GAVE ME. So what does this mean? If a person is ordained to receieve eternal life he will answer the VOICE when he calls. I answered that voice as I recoginized His voice. I assure you that I wasnt good enough, didnt have enough education or anything else it was his election that brought me to him nothing that I done to deserve him I deserved nothing, simply nothing it was by the mercy of God. The bible says we are waiting for the redemption of the body right? NO, it does not say that it says WE ARE WAITING TO WIT the redemption of the body, there is a world of differnece. I witted mine have you? God is getting a body of beleivers together and revealing himslef to them that will bring this change. It is Joseph revealing himslef to his brother Benjamin this is waht is happening now.

February 4, 2012 at 5:15 am#275816

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2012,05:39)

toby

all those questions have already been answered,

you are mixing the reason of the topic,I have explain that to you and or others,

Pierre

Thank you, Terraricca. Your input has been noted.

February 4, 2012 at 5:17 am#275817

Participant

Hi Seeking. You make some interesting points, thankyou. However, like the views of some others, they don't all add up to me..

'A Spirit in a Spirit Body' – where do you get that from?
What is it that is raised up from the dead?
What is it that is made glorious?
What is it that is made Powerful?
What is it that becomes Spiritual?

Ccn you show proof of Jesus being in a Spiritual Body while in Heaven.
Thank you.

February 4, 2012 at 11:30 am#275835

Participant

Seeking:

Jesus is a Spirit in Heaven now. I would urge you not to make this a point of expanded discussion. It's just distraction.

All beings in Heaven are Spirits – the question is: “Do they have bodies!”
So far the following has been established:

1) God does not… (But, metaphorically only, the 'Body' of God is the whole of creation and as such a special case it has been agreed to exclude God from further examination)

2) The Holy Spirit… (The perfect example of the bodiless spirit – and has therefore also been excluded from further examination)

3) Jesus… (Every expression concerning Jesus in Heaven refers to him as 'A Spirit'. The most prominent of these is '….Jesus…, who is in the form of God…' (This does not mean he was God… But 'in the same form as God' meaning A spirit… And we know that Scriptures says 'God is a Spirit' or (God is in the form of Spirit)
No Scripture concerning Jesus in Heaven claims that Jesus is in a body. The only reference to any kind of 'body of Jesus' is 'The body of Jesus is the Church' – another metaphorical body as with God)

4) Angels… (These have so far been the least examined, from what I could see – in this thread. Avoided – for very good reason by those trying futily to proof Spirits have bodies!!)

——————————————————–

By the way, Seeking, I'm surprised that you can't understand that Revelations is all symbolism. Jesus, for instance, is variously represented as a man with a double-edged sword for a tongue and flaming eyes, as 'A Lamb as if slaughtered' – and as an giant Angel who bestrides a river. You may have also seen references to Angels with wings… Yet no reference is ever made to an Angel having wings when seen by mankind…(why might that be do you think?).

February 4, 2012 at 11:33 am#275836

Participant

Mikeboll, you are perfectly entitled to not post in this thread and your summarisation that getting to the bottom of the thread question will not save our lives is, in the main, partially correct.

You say that we all know your views on this question – but do we? It would be nice if you could summarise what exactly you do believe. An outline of it and your proof of it as I do. How you arrive at your reasons and how these fit together step by step. This need not be lengthy but they must be process by process so it is clear (as I presume it is in your mind). Mikeboll, I for one will not comment on your output but you must admit that after 476 pages you cannot just walk away without saying what it is you actually believe, and why you came to think that way. Thank you, I hope you will see what I mean.

February 4, 2012 at 11:58 am#275839

Participant

To all,
Could there be a reason why this thread cannot focus on '(Heavenly) Spirits With bodies?'?
I think I know why.

February 4, 2012 at 2:57 pm#275858

Participant

toby……….Spirit is simply (INTELLECT) Cognate thoughts, it makes no difference as to what Spirit (IS) because it is all the same, rather earthly or heavenly , Spirit is Spirit, the only difference is, the TYPES and KINDS of Spirits being Spoken about. There are those intellects that are earthly from lower intellects, and there is the Heavenly intellects which are from above, a higher intellect, but as for spirits themselves , spirit is (intellect)and are just cognate thoughts, or (INTELLECTS) of different types and kinds.

There are (NO) Spirit “BODIES” of any kind or type , Spirits (intellects) are what is (IN) Bodies, they are not the bodies they are (IN)> God who is SPIRIT was TRULY (IN) The MAN JESUS. That is all we have to do is just believe what Jesus clearly said. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………….gene

February 4, 2012 at 3:00 pm#275859