- This topic has 5,411 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (toby @ Jan. 30 2012,23:25) Mikeboll, I said Jesus was raised up in his same Body that was now Spiritual.
Okay, so Jesus was raised from the dead as a HUMAN BEING again, with the same body in which he died, right?You say his body had been changed from “natural” to “spiritual”. What does that mean? What would be the difference between Jesus' raised flesh and bone body and my flesh and bone body?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,13:33) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 01 2012,02:51) from Mike tree little questions ;you have made a big speech but NO SCRIPTURES,NO ANSWER,BUT OFFER A DEVIATION TO THE QUESTION ,AND THEN PROPOSE TO LENGTHENING YOUR QUOTE TO A NOVEL,SELF INFLATION 
you should use scripture truth to show Gods wisdom and not inflated opinions,
Pierre
Terrarica, are you really that insecure?
Was there a need for you to say what you did?
I bet if I took a quick look I could find plenty of other long posts.Wow, a whole forum of them!
tobyeither you play or test people knowledge ,or you have no knowledge or very little ,witch one is it ,???
our understanding is equal to the knowledge we have put in our hearts and our truthful way to deal with that knowledge,
the out come would be always the truth of Gods will
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,12:12) Gene, I agree with you that Jesus was raised in the exact same flesh, blood, and bone body in which he died.
As far as your “body” definition, don't you think you should give ME the definition of “spirit” in Luke 24:37 first? I've been asking for two months.
Mike………..I have told you hundred times a Spirit is What is (IN) a BODY, it is the cognate thoughts (IN) Bodies there INTELLECTS, nothing more and nothing less IMO, Just that simple MIKE. They (Spirits) come in all kinds and types , or haven't you ever heard there are clean and unclean Spirits, the Spirit (intellect) of wisdom, The Spirit of Love, There are EVIL Spirits also, There is a Spirit (intellect) of a sound Mind, There is Spirits (intellect) of an Adversary or (ha-satan). And on and on it goes with the different “TYPES and “KINDS” OF SPIRITS. There is Seven Spirits of GOD these are symbolized as EYES of GOD, in Revelations they are distinct types of INTELLECTS that give GOD HIS understandings.They are portrayed in scripture as the eyes of GOD.Mike, NON of THESE ARE “BODIES” There is NO Such thing as a SPIRIT”BODY” there never was any either. Because Spirits are what is (IN) BODIES, and GOD who (IS) SPIRIT was TRULY (IN) Jesus , Just as Jesus said He was. GOD was NOT a BODY that was (IN) Jesus , because there is no such thing as a SPIRIT BODY.
Mike becasue you don't know what spirit really is you can't understand How GOD was TRULY (IN) Jesus , Just as Jesus said He was. I told you a long time ago if you understood what Spirit really was you could understand How GOD could be in all and through ALL> Spirit does not have all Kind of meaning as you think it does it is simply what drives our thoughts it is what LIFE itself IS. They are expressed by our words, and God's words too.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2012,09:50) Hi Toby, I read nothing in the way of an answer to this point:
Do you agree that since Jesus was FIRST a spiritual being, then he is an exception to the rule in Paul's 1 Cor 15 teaching?
Hi Mikeboll. Sorry I missed this question.
No, definitely not.
When Jesus came to be with mankind, what was the purpose of this act?. Was it not 'To live as man, suffer as man, die as man, and thus prove that man, even though in a sinful and corruptible body, could OVERCOME sin, and live forever? (my quotes).
Jesus was Fully Man while on Earth. A Rich Prince cannot pretend to be poor, and live among the poor, and tell the poor “Its ok to be poor, look at me, I'm not moaning, am I?”. Only by being Truly Poor can he then empathise, but at the same time give them the knowledge as Jesus did, that if they too acted as he did, then his gaining of richness will also be their gaining of richness, by measure, in his father's house.
Mikeboll, it seems you are stretching the bounds of the meaning of 'Spirit with Body' beyond reasonable cause. You yourself have said that we should restrict the dialogue to Jesus, God and Angel – Spirits in Heaven. (Whether Jesus was a Spirit in Heaven and then became man and is now Spirit again has nothing to do with showing your idea that he was 'In a body of Spirit').
Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
Along with all else that apostle Paul was writing about, this clearly shows it is about the 'Human Body'. Therefore, whether or not Jesus was Spirit in Heaven before does not come into the discussion. 'First the natural (Sinful body through the mis-act of Adam. Sin did not come from Eve – but from Adam, because Adam is the seed) and then the Spiritual (The unsinful body as made so by the Holy Spirit)'.
(Off subject): With the resurrection of the dead, the resurrected bodies will be made perfect. A man with a limp will be remade as a man without a limp. Someone with a debilitation will be released of such – made whole . Think of any example of Healing – the resurrection will be a mass healing process to all! But not all will live through it – many of those of the second resurrection will go on to everlasting destruction (Not destruction that goes on forever, but a permanent destruction – death is not a permanent destruction, but as Jesus says 'He is (only) sleeping!'
For what was the Earth created – but to be inhabited – did God not say so – and God cannot lie!
So if the dead are raised as 'Bodies of Spirit' and therefore all go to Heaven – what purpose is the Earth? Why did God not just create Spirit beings in his own image to start with.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 01 2012,10:36) toby either you play or test people knowledge ,or you have no knowledge or very little ,witch one is it ,???
our understanding is equal to the knowledge we have put in our hearts and our truthful way to deal with that knowledge,
the out come would be always the truth of Gods will
Pierre
Thank you for your insight, Terraricca. I will consider what you say.
I hope you, too, also consider what you just said.Quote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,03:41) Hi SeekingTruth and Mikeboll. Mikeboll said:
Quote 'The spirit inside has nothing to do with whether the being's body is natural or spiritual.' Can you see this getting very recursive?
If the Body of the Spirit contains a Spirit then does the Spirit inside the body of the Spirit have a body?
If 'yes' then is it a Spiritual Body (Mikeboll, your definition of 'Body of a Spirit')?
And if it has a Spiritual Body then is there a Spirit inside the Spiritual Body of the Spirit inside the Spiritual Body of the Spirit?If 'no' then a Spirit does not have a Body and something is very wrong with the theory.
Toby,
I'm confused why you addressed this to me and Mike as we do not agree with each other on the issues you listed. I believe a glorious body (spiritual body) is one where the desires of the flesh are no longer what will control us, as our “being” will have been permanently changed to one fulfilling instead the desires of the spirit (a spirit in communion with God). And that will be an immortal “spiritual” (yet corporeal) body.
Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. This will become effortless in our resurrected bodies.
Mike quotes all the time the following verse to support his belief that Jesus changed into a spirit 1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. In this verse “soul” is specifically being contrasted to “spirit,” it no more means that Jesus was a spirit without a body, than when Adam became a “soul,” that he lost his body.
Romans 5:15 But God’s free gift is not like Adam’s sin. Many people died because of the sin of that one man. But the grace that people received from God was much greater. Many received God’s gift of life by the grace of this other man, Jesus Christ.
Why would Paul call Jesus a man, if He was a spirit.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2012,09:53) Okay, so Jesus was raised from the dead as a HUMAN BEING again, with the same body in which he died, right? You say his body had been changed from “natural” to “spiritual”. What does that mean? What would be the difference between Jesus' raised flesh and bone body and my flesh and bone body?
Mikeboll.
Jesus was raised up in the same flesh and bone body he was buried in, and that was made Spiritual by virtue of all of the points Apostle Paul outlined. 'Raised in Power, Raised in Incorruption, Raised in Glory', the Spiritual Body – the Body that is like the everlasting, undying, sinless, incorruptible spirit. This latter point is what is referred to in the verse that says 'We will Become like the Angels of Heaven' ('Like' the Angels of Heaven – not 'Be' Angels of Heaven). The Angels of Heaven are Holy, asexual, obedient to their God (they do not sin) and powerful in presence by the word of God through the Holy Spirit. Paul, nor anyone else in Scriptures, says that 'We' will become Angels of Heaven but only 'Like the Angels of Heaven'.
You do not give enough information in your second point for a full answer, but even so: Mikeboll, your Flesh and Bone body is currently in a corruptible state. It is subject to decay by aging and death by trauma (Or its unsustainability of renewal of cells and intake of the right and necessary nutrients and other biological and chemical matter). “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.
Jesus' Resurrected body (I presume you are asking this) was made all the opposites of what I just outlined for your current body. Jesus' body is sinless, incorruptible, glorious, and everlasting. It still requires food – it is still Flesh. But all it's needs will be spiritually obtained like a perfect machine that is greased and oiled and maintained with part changes exactly as the perfect designer put in the service manual (Should we all be eating broiled Fish from now on, then).
Sorry SeekingTruth, I was addressing Mikeboll but including what he wrote to you, I should have quoted properly, my mistake.
Seeking, I meant to also add, 'nice post' – what you are saying is not a million miles from what I also am saying and I mean All parts of what you said.
WM and Toby……………I also believe we shall have Physical bodies made Perfect by the Spirit in them, at the resurrection, Just as Jesus has, we will still be Son of Man Just as Jesus is with regards to our bodies and sons of God By the indwelling Spirit of GOD in those physical Bodies.
And as concerning Angels if they are only “SPIRIT Beings, why does it say Manna was Angels Food. That God feed Israel with in the wilderness, if they were pure spirit they would need no food at all. But what does this say.
Psa 78:24……> And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them corn of heaven, 25…> Man did eat “angels food”: he sent them meat to the full.
Why would an angel eat anything if it was a SPIRIT BEING? Therefore i maintain Angels also have bodies with GOD Made Spirit (IN) them.
I do agree with both of you that we will have Physical Bodies energized by spirit. God can preserve our bodies by his life giving spirit that acts as a “TREE OD LIFE” for ever and increase the power and strength of these Bodies, Just as he did for Sampson, and make these bodies walk through fire and not even get singed, and make them appear and disappear Just as he did Jesus body and Philip's also yes and even make them walk on water Like Peter and Jesus did. I believe God did not make this creation Just to toss it all away and have us live in the emptiness of outer Space or wherever. No this earth is God Crown Jewel and He promises to deliver it from its bond of corruption. IMO
peace and love to you both………………………gene
Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,02:43) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 01 2012,10:36) toby either you play or test people knowledge ,or you have no knowledge or very little ,witch one is it ,???
our understanding is equal to the knowledge we have put in our hearts and our truthful way to deal with that knowledge,
the out come would be always the truth of Gods will
Pierre
Thank you for your insight, Terraricca. I will consider what you say.
I hope you, too, also consider what you just said.
tobywe are entitled to our opinions but we should called it just that
Pierre
Quote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,20:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2012,09:53) Okay, so Jesus was raised from the dead as a HUMAN BEING again, with the same body in which he died, right? You say his body had been changed from “natural” to “spiritual”. What does that mean? What would be the difference between Jesus' raised flesh and bone body and my flesh and bone body?
Mikeboll.
Jesus was raised up in the same flesh and bone body he was buried in, and that was made Spiritual by virtue of all of the points Apostle Paul outlined. 'Raised in Power, Raised in Incorruption, Raised in Glory', the Spiritual Body – the Body that is like the everlasting, undying, sinless, incorruptible spirit. This latter point is what is referred to in the verse that says 'We will Become like the Angels of Heaven' ('Like' the Angels of Heaven – not 'Be' Angels of Heaven). The Angels of Heaven are Holy, asexual, obedient to their God (they do not sin) and powerful in presence by the word of God through the Holy Spirit. Paul, nor anyone else in Scriptures, says that 'We' will become Angels of Heaven but only 'Like the Angels of Heaven'.
You do not give enough information in your second point for a full answer, but even so: Mikeboll, your Flesh and Bone body is currently in a corruptible state. It is subject to decay by aging and death by trauma (Or its unsustainability of renewal of cells and intake of the right and necessary nutrients and other biological and chemical matter). “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.
Jesus' Resurrected body (I presume you are asking this) was made all the opposites of what I just outlined for your current body. Jesus' body is sinless, incorruptible, glorious, and everlasting. It still requires food – it is still Flesh. But all it's needs will be spiritually obtained like a perfect machine that is greased and oiled and maintained with part changes exactly as the perfect designer put in the service manual (Should we all be eating broiled Fish from now on, then).
Hi brother TobyYou made some good points, but I have to disagree with you.
Spirit is a much higher material
than flesh and blood.
Jesus only appeared in the flesh,
so that they could see him.
but he walked through walls, appeared and disappeared.
Spirit can appear as whatever it likes
just like the angels that appeared to Abraham, and Lot,
they were spirit angels,
but manifested into flesh and blood,An angel appearing in it's natural spirit body,
would be very bright,
and overwhelming in it's magnificence,
and frightening
in a glorious kind of way.
It would knock you over.And if an angel is so bright,
imagine how bright Christ would of been
in his new spiritual body?
It would of blinded them.I believe Jesus spiritual body requires spiritual food,
and that is
every word that comes out of the mouth of God.
Not the type of food we need to live.
But there may be other types of spiritual food?
available to the spirits of God
and I say it would be just for pleasure
not survival
but that's just my guesswork,
for I've never been to heaven!Christ ate with the apostles because that's what humans do when they bond and fellowship.
Christ being made so much more than flesh and blood now, and given the keys to death and hell,
is still not to high
to sit and eat with his appostles,
as this would of comforted themand the holes in his hands,
I know that they were not really existing,
but he has shown it to them
so they know it is really him they are talking to,
raised from the dead
and not some other spirit playing games.If we are changed to spirit, and made perfect,
then why would we keep our old wounds and scars with us? Doesn't make sense.
we have to ask these questions.Anyway,
God bless you Toby.
I love your zeal
I hope this makes sense.To All………….All you who believe in SPIRIT BODIES Pleas describe those “SPIRIT BODIES” what do the LOOK LIKE. I for one have never SEEN a SPIRIT BODY. WHY you ask , becasue SPIRITS do NOT have bodies they are what is (IN) BODIES. Just that simple. NO “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS NEED > IMO
peace and love…………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 02 2012,10:12) To All………….All you who believe in SPIRIT BODIES Pleas describe those “SPIRIT BODIES” what do the LOOK LIKE. I for one have never SEEN a SPIRIT BODY. WHY you ask , becasue SPIRITS do NOT have bodies they are what is (IN) BODIES. Just that simple. NO “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS NEED > IMO peace and love…………………………………………….gene
genenot spirit bodies , spirit beings having a body or a form
you always transform things that do not line up with your understanding opinions
Pierre
Hi SeekingTruth.
Whether or not you are in agreement with me – can you see the ill-Logic in other's theories?If the Spirit Body (as others say) has a spirit in it (In fact, by their definition this should say spiritS (Plural), seeing that they say the Spirit of Jesus is 'Love' and 'Compassion' and … many other things (Perhaps 'Legions' of spirits!!)) then does/do that/those spirits have bodies?
It is obvious that another has realised the error and has hastily re-Defined the Spirit of Jesus as being mere 'Aspects' of the Spirit of Jesus – otherwise, are the Seven Spirits of the Holy Spirit of God real Candlesticks?
Seeking, have you read the post where I said that the Spiritual Body (Glorious Body) is one that controls the flesh with Godly desire – the contrast being the natural body that the spirit panders to to our detriment'
So YES, we do agree on that. However, i wasn't sure whether you were saying that you believe that Spirits have bodies or not?
Hi Journey. Thanks for your post – you can certainly express your view really well.
I think though there are some fundamental flaws that are best discussed with others. For instance, 'Manner from Heaven' is not 'Angel Food'. Angels do not eat food in Heaven and only under explicit conditions while on earth (Only ever one recorded event).
Another, only Jesus retains his scars from the cross only – all other scars are cleansed. The nail holes and wound in his side are symbolic of his triumph over death: as everlasting proof. All others will be fully restored to completely whole bodies as symbolised by the healings that Jesus performed.
Quote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,02:40) Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
Then you agree that Jesus was an exception to that rule, whether you care to admit it or not. Saying, I don't think Jesus' pre-existence came into play in Paul's teaching doesn't change the fact that, in the case of Jesus, the spiritual came first.That in mind, we know of one clear exception to Paul's rule in the case of Jesus.
As for the second exception, your claim that Jesus was raised in a glorified flesh, human body just so that body could be shed upon his ascension to heaven makes no sense. Your understanding that Paul yearns for the new, glorious body like Jesus' just so he can shed that body since his citizenship will be in heaven also makes no sense.
Your understanding in light of 2 Cor 5:1-4 definitely makes no sense, for Paul goes to great lengths to assure us that God will not leave us naked, but will clothe us with a heavenly tent to make up for the earthly tent we left behind.
Toby, you and I simply disagree. I believe angels and those of heaven do have spiritual bodies, and you believe they don't.
It's time for us to agree to disagree.
peace to you,
mikeQuote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,15:31) If the Spirit Body (as others say) has a spirit in it (In fact, by their definition this should say spiritS (Plural), seeing that they say the Spirit of Jesus is 'Love' and 'Compassion' and … many other things (Perhaps 'Legions' of spirits!!)) then does/do that/those spirits have bodies?
This is just one of the “slants” you've perpetrated on this thread, Toby.This thread was started in order to discuss whether or not SPIRIT BEINGS, SUCH AS ANGELS, have bodies in heaven. It was NOT meant to include such things as “team spirit”, or “the spirit of love”, etc.
This has been Gene's misunderstanding for over 400 pages now, and you are PURPOSELY playing into his misunderstanding.
Gene, along with everyone who has ever visited this site (except for you and Shimmer), believes that angels do indeed have bodies.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 01 2012,03:31) Mike quotes all the time the following verse to support his belief that Jesus changed into a spirit 1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. In this verse “soul” is specifically being contrasted to “spirit,” it no more means that Jesus was a spirit without a body, than when Adam became a “soul,” that he lost his body.
Wm, I believe that Jesus has a new, glorious, spiritual body in heaven right now. I have never claimed that Jesus is “without a body”.Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 01 2012,03:31) Why would Paul call Jesus a man, if He was a spirit.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father………11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Why would Paul say these things if Jesus was still a human being in heaven? Wm, flesh cannot be in heaven, and human beings are made of flesh.
Many people misunderstand Acts 1:11 to be saying that Jesus left as a man, and will return as such. But the meaning is that Jesus left on the clouds, and will return the same way.
Perhaps you're one of these, Wm?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
