- This topic has 5,411 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
toby
please address those following scriptures;MT 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
MK 14:25 “Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
LK 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2012,10:13) MIke………..That is all you have to do is show us ONE PERSON IN SCRIPTURE THAT HAS EVER SEEN A SPIRIT. It is JUST THAT SIMPLE, Don't give us the garbage of what some “THOUGHT” they saw and use it as a Proof Text that there (ARE) such thing as “SPIRIT BODIES” You have NO PROOF there ARE not from any Scripture. If I say I “THOUGHT” I saw a flying Saucer does that mean there are flying Saucers, can I say I know for a fact I saw one, when no one else can prove they say one either even though they “THOUGHT” they did? come on Mike this Luke thing is absolute no proof of anything and what Jesus said after that should even more convience you MIKE> peace and love………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene, is this what you ask?“And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that
Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these men, that they may see.
And the LORD(YHVH) opened their eyes, and they saw;” (2 Kings 6:20)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,11:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2012,18:09) Can we at least agree on that MIKE?
Gene,Until we both agree on the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, anything else you say is pointless. Because I can't show you what I have to show you until you are able to see what only you can't see.
Hi Mike,You are right, when discoursing with Gene, one must
first establish what the “Word” in question actual means.Gene: defines “Free Will” differently than everyone else does.
Kangaroo Jack: defines “Being” differently than everyone else does.
So when discoursing with either one of them.
All disagreements (with them) MUST first start with
defining each and and every “Word” in question!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2012,11:54) Toby. Daniel 10:13. But the prince of the kingdom of percia(phisical evil angel) withstood me 0ne and twenty days: but lo, michael(phisical holy angel) one of the chief princes,came to help me; and I remain there with the prince of percia.
A phisical spirit body can be withstood(captured).
Acts1:10. And when they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up(Jesus); BEHOLD TWO MENS TOOD BY THEM IN WHITE APPAREL. (Angels materialising into a human body)
They are not shapeless creatures.VERSE11. which also said; ye men of galilee,why stand ye gazing up to heaven? This same Jesus,which is taken up from you,into heaven,shall so come in like manner,as ye have seen him go into heaven.
There are four chief angels:1.Michael. 2.Raphael. 3.Gabriel.4. phanuel.They are individual angels with character,not just spirits,like the wind,with no form or shape.
The four beasts around the throne of God,each have four faces,and four wings.
The four living creatures Ezekiel saw,had a head with four faces,arms,wings,and feet(ez.1:4—28.)
They are not shapeless spirits.Lucifer was a beautiful cherub,with character,with ideas,and dreams, and plans,and strategies,and talents,wisdom.
HE is not just a floating spirit force with no body or shape.wakeup.
Hi Wake-up,Not everyone here has read the book of Enoch.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2012,11:31) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 25 2012,03:20) But, Mike, Paul here is speaking of the sun and the moon and the stars, and talks about the Resurrected Bodies.
So the elect will be raised with bodies that are shaped like planets and stars?
I don't get your point.
Mike, my point was that – in 1Cor 15:39-42, Paul was not speaking about the Bodies of God or Angels, but was comparing Man, Animal, Fish, the Moon, the Stars etc, and then the ressurected Bodies of Jesus and those after Jesus – nothing to do with God and Angels. That was my point.Do you understand me now?
I hope so.
Thankyou.
I have nothing further to say.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,06:37) Quote (toby @ Jan. 26 2012,01:59) Did I not answer you as to 'When did Jesus become a Spirit'.
Let me rephrase it for you:Toby, when do you think Jesus stopped being a human being and became a spirit being?
(And actually, your original answer was “everyone is a spirit being”, or something to that effect. Then you corrected yourself, which opened the question again. So, as far as I can tell, you STILL haven't actually answered the question I'm asking.)
Mikeboll, your reference to my very publicly declared typing error:When a man admits very publicly an error, an error of writing that was caused by external distraction, an error that was not actually critical (It was obviously a typing error as shown by all the other writings and views) why do you choose to bring it to mind in a post? Read my post and you will see that I exactly answered your question – even using your very own words. If I haven't answered it (In a way which you understand), then please let me know.
Thank You Mikeboll.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,11:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2012,18:09) Can we at least agree on that MIKE?
Gene,Until we both agree on the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, anything else you say is pointless. Because I can't show you what I have to show you until you are able to see what only you can't see.
Hi Mike,You are right, when discoursing with Gene, one must
first establish what the “Word” in question actual means.Gene: defines “Free Will” differently than everyone else does.
Kangaroo Jack: defines “Being” differently than everyone else does.
So when discoursing with either one of them.
All disagreements (with them) MUST first start with
defining each and and every “Word” in question!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi EDJ and Mikeboll.Mikeboll, well said about 'Defining Words'.
EDJ, Hi, what you said was hilarious but I get the meaning. In reality, the scenario, is that an agreement on the definition of the word or phrase that is in contention should be made from an agreed source between the two (or more) contenders. It should also be agreed that express depth of definitions is not allowed as anything, given enough redefining and 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' meanings (Say, Attitude of a cult religion or Spiritist teachings such as Mormons – 'Spirit Body' or Spiritist – 'Celestial Angels').
Having said that, Mikeboll, I have asked you to please give a definition for 'Body'. Mike, let me ask you again so we 'can agree a common precept': 'Mike, please can you give definitions from a credible source (a Dictionary or non-cultish Scripture source and not a writer's personal view – even quoting Barne's is a personal view as right underneath are other writer's personal views!)'
What is the agreed definition of Spirit – and what is the agreed definition of Body?
Mikeboll, this is not about winning points – I came to this forum thinking I was going to be dialoging with others who wanted to uncover and learn the truth of God and his word, so let's.
——————————————-
Terrarica and Wakeup, I have not had the time to look any further into what you have both said (plus any verses), I will!
All,
What I believe is what most people believe, and that is that spirits don't have bodies because you can't see them. However, the experiences I have had through prayer and revelation, I have seen things, but I never ever saw anything with my literal eyes. And I have never ever heard anything with my literal ears. What I have seen through prayer and vision was clear, as clear as day in my minds eye. I have seen amazing things, which is why I said in the beginning that I believed that Jesus had wings, yes I do believe that Jesus has wings but not nessesarily literal wings, they could be symbolic, symbolic for Gods LOVE and the fact that we know that Jesus said how he wished to take the Jews under his wings.
Just like hearing. I have not heard any voices in my life – I have not been delusional in that way. I have witnessed people reporting that they have heard things and seen things that weren't there. I know they weren't there because the person was either coming down off drugs or they were sick (mentally). Just like you hear stories of people who are hot and feverish and they report seeing or hearing things, as do people suffering from mental illness, they report seeing and hearing things that arent there, and often, what they see and hear are telling them to do things that just aren't right. Scary stuff.
The difference in belief in Jesus and in God is that what we see and what we hear is not with our literal eyes or ears is it? As I said, it never was for me.
I think that is the difference in using our spiritual eyes and spirtual ears. What is real and what is not. I know and I believe that what i have experinced was true. I felt it, I know it. Everything that happened was with the Bible. I was answered whenever I used to ask questions through the Bible and that wasn't just coincidence.
This is the aspect of the whole thing which we need to teach our children, how to believe in something which isnt nessarily perceivable with the naked eye. This is called FAITH. And it is through faith that we are saved. What is that verse, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen' and ' Because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal'
Quote (toby @ Jan. 27 2012,12:40) So to Gene: What I have done is ignore the parts where you are adamant in your error, due to your conviction in belief over the nature of a Spirit. Your writings seem to indicate that you can entertain the notion of a Demon Spirit in the physical universe, which are indeed 'In a Body' – I agree wholeheartedly. This is shown Absolutely by the fact that no one has ever reported to have seen a Demon Spirit, and those that are mentioned in Scriptures have all been 'In the Body' of another living Being – meaning they don't have the ability to sustain a body of their own, even in the physical world where 'Holy Angels' have been seen by, and interacted with, mankind.
Finally, if a Spirit Being has a 'Body' then why did Jesus' 'Immortal Body' have to be “Transformed” at his Ascension?
All living Beings in the Earthly physical and material world have a Spirit in them. Do these Spirits have a body? No! They are still 'Spirit'.
Do these Spirits occupy a body? Yes, the body of the Being that constrains them.
Why are the Spirits in the earthly physical world constrained by the 'Body' of the Being?
To limit their activities so they comply with the laws governing the earthly physical world, and especially the limitation of the encasing Flesh body.It can therefore be stated with absolute certainty, that the new Glorious Body that will encase the Spirit of those On Earth in the new life, will not be limited by the physical laws of the universe – nor that of any flesh – and wonderful things as yet unknown to mankind will be accomplished (For instance, distance will not be a constraint, pain and hurt, heat, light, warmth, cold, food, drink (more) will not be issues)
According to some here, the Glorious Body will encase the Spirit of man at the resurrection – it would then have to be assumed that all of the resurrected will have their abode in Heaven as Angels. What was the point of God creating flesh in the first place? And what about Scriptures that state that the Earth will become a Paradise and the Elect will 'Rule on the Earth' – who are they 'Ruling' over on the Earth if everyone is in Heaven?”
Toby……….I agree with most of this post , Spirits are NOT BODIES of ANY KIND, they never were, Spirit come in various Types and Kinds, Each Spirits produces cognate awareness in the bodies they are IN, the Same Spirit can be in everyone at the same time, clean or unclean , GOD can be “IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL” Spirits have no power of themselves, they are, simply put (INTELLECTS) and must be connected with a Power Source and that power source is limited to the body they are (IN), unless (IT) is of God the FATHER, then it is unlimited in its power. Because God is all powerful, If he is (IN) you there is no limit are what can be done through us. But it is not Us that is doing it , it is GOD the FATHER that is. Just as Jesus said He could do “NOTHING” of HIMSELF, BUT the FATHER who was (IN) Him “HE DOES THE WORKS”.Angels do have bodies and God creates there Spirits and sends to out to minister to us. Angels are even called MEN as JODI so rightly posted from scriptures.
My only point of difference with you may be in saying that our present bodies cant perform the things angels bodies can, because Scripture show they have at times disappeared , been thrown into a furnace and walked around in it and came out of it alive without a hair singed, these bodies have walked on water and became so powerful a single bodied person could kill a thousand men in battle “Sampson” for instance.. God Said Adam and Eve could have lived for ever in there present bodies had they eaten of the Tree of LIFE that was in the garden .
I also believe as you God did not create this beautiful Earth with it awesome majesty and wonders, teaming with all kind of beautiful life forms to just destory it, in fact it say the whole creation shall be delivered from its bondage of corruption. Let all who want to go up into a heaven and drift around with unseen bodies all they want, I for one prefer this earth and its unending wonders and beauties that our God has made for us all to enjoy for ever with him. When God said it was Good he really meant it as far as i am concerned. This plant it is a Crown Jewel of God's Majestic works ,IMO?
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
all and gene
Quote Toby……….I agree with most of this post , Spirits are NOT BODIES of ANY KIND 
this was never the discussion 
Pierre
Shimmer……….Wing in scriptures are symbolic language, it means what lifts you up, for example the wings of the four Living creatures in Revelations had “EYES” in then , why? becasue these EYES represent Spirits (INTELLECTS) of GOD and these Spirits mentally give them a “higher level” of understanding (Hence the symbols of wings with eyes (IN) them). IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Quote (toby @ Jan. 27 2012,22:18) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,11:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2012,18:09) Can we at least agree on that MIKE?
Gene,Until we both agree on the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, anything else you say is pointless. Because I can't show you what I have to show you until you are able to see what only you can't see.
Hi Mike,You are right, when discoursing with Gene, one must
first establish what the “Word” in question actual means.Gene: defines “Free Will” differently than everyone else does.
Kangaroo Jack: defines “Being” differently than everyone else does.
So when discoursing with either one of them.
All disagreements (with them) MUST first start with
defining each and and every “Word” in question!God bless
Ed J
Hi EDJ and Mikeboll.Mikeboll, well said about 'Defining Words'.
EDJ, Hi, what you said was hilarious but I get the meaning.
Quote What is the agreed definition of Spirit –
and what is the agreed definition of Body?
Hi Toby,
That would be a constrictive start.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2012,10:53) Quote (toby @ Jan. 27 2012,22:18) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,11:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2012,18:09) Can we at least agree on that MIKE?
Gene,Until we both agree on the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, anything else you say is pointless. Because I can't show you what I have to show you until you are able to see what only you can't see.
Hi Mike,You are right, when discoursing with Gene, one must
first establish what the “Word” in question actual means.Gene: defines “Free Will” differently than everyone else does.
Kangaroo Jack: defines “Being” differently than everyone else does.
So when discoursing with either one of them.
All disagreements (with them) MUST first start with
defining each and and every “Word” in question!God bless
Ed J
Hi EDJ and Mikeboll.Mikeboll, well said about 'Defining Words'.
EDJ, Hi, what you said was hilarious but I get the meaning.
Quote What is the agreed definition of Spirit –
and what is the agreed definition of Body?
Hi Toby,
That would be a constrictive start.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwhat is a being ? a combination of both spirit and body ?
Pierre
ED j………..Right let's establish what SPIRIT REALLY MEANS and it doesn't mean a body of any kind what so ever. And as far as a WILL That is “FREE” or as you and some say a “FREE WILL” Post one scripture that Say we HAVE A FREE WILL (IN US)> To even say a WILL is “FREE” is an OXYMORON. NO SUCH TING EXISTS a a WILL THAT IS TOTALLY FREE all Wills are (INFLUENCED BY SOMETHING) or they could not be a WILL becasue the meaning of a WILL is and “INFLUENCED DESIRE”> Post a WILL that has NO INFLUENCE for US where is it in SCRIPTURES> POST IT> and i will take a look at it otherwise no point in me looking at your assumed position of a SO_CALLED “FREE WILL” IMO
peace and love to you and yours ED J……………………………………………….gene
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2012,12:56) toby please address those following scriptures;MT 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
MK 14:25 “Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
LK 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”Pierre
Hi Terraricca.I would love to answer you in regard to the verses, but I fail to see what they have to do with Spirits having Bodies.
Are you perhaps saying that Jesus still has a body that can drink wine?
If so then doesn't that say exactly what I have been saying.
Does a Spirit Being drink wine? For what purpose?
Mikeboll says Jesus is a Spirit Being in Heaven – and so do I.
The difference is that I say that the Spirit Being does not have a body and he says it does.Now, there is not one single reference or evidence in Scriptures, that says that a Spirit has a body. Spiritual Body is not a reference to 'the body of a Spirit' – this is nonsense, and it is only used by some because it is the only wording they can find that mentions 'Spirit-ual' and 'Body' in the same sentence. This is the same as the Trinitarians who claim that any reference of Jesus and God in the same sentence is a reference to the Trinity – despite there being two persons mentioned!!! Yes, Terraricca, the reference to Spiritual Body is a reference to 'The Raising of the dead Body'. Some have to force it to link events together concerning the raising of the dead at the resurrection, which for most is pretty clear. At no time did the Apostle Paul say anything about Spirit Beings in Heaven having bodies – and why should he have done so – even Jesus Christ never ever said that Spirits had bodies – however, he did say that they did not have Bodies.
Mikeboll says that Jesus' body was transformed as he entered Heaven in the cloud: Terraricca, can you post me the verses that state such a wonderful event – the transformation of Jesus' body from a Flesh and Bone body into a Spiritual Body? Or was the transformation, as outlined by Apostle Paul, the Transformation from Mortal Flesh into Immortal Flesh?
Terraricca, transformation is an act that changes something of one form into something different but in the same form.
You cannot transform flesh to a Spirit.
You can however, transform one kind of flesh to another kind of flesh.
A Man does not transform into a Spirit.
Nor a Spirit Transform into a Man.
Angels Spirits seen and interacting with humans were always 'In the likeness' of a man (Or a burning Bush or a Pillar of Fire) and it was made known to the human that the vision was a Spirit or they later realised that it was an Angel. The Angel had not changed Form but just manifested itself in that form. It was still an Angel – not a Man; it was still a Spirit and not Flesh (and blood and bone).My view Terrarica.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2012,11:54) Toby. Daniel 10:13. But the prince of the kingdom of percia(phisical evil angel) withstood me 0ne and twenty days: but lo, michael(phisical holy angel) one of the chief princes,came to help me; and I remain there with the prince of percia.
A phisical spirit body can be withstood(captured).
Acts1:10. And when they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up(Jesus); BEHOLD TWO MENS TOOD BY THEM IN WHITE APPAREL. (Angels materialising into a human body)
They are not shapeless creatures.VERSE11. which also said; ye men of galilee,why stand ye gazing up to heaven? This same Jesus,which is taken up from you,into heaven,shall so come in like manner,as ye have seen him go into heaven.
There are four chief angels:1.Michael. 2.Raphael. 3.Gabriel.4. phanuel.They are individual angels with character,not just spirits,like the wind,with no form or shape.
The four beasts around the throne of God,each have four faces,and four wings.
The four living creatures Ezekiel saw,had a head with four faces,arms,wings,and feet(ez.1:4—28.)
They are not shapeless spirits.Lucifer was a beautiful cherub,with character,with ideas,and dreams, and plans,and strategies,and talents,wisdom.
HE is not just a floating spirit force with no body or shape.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup.What did Jesus Christ say about the wind – and why?
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.' The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can this be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Wakeup, does the wind have a Body (Not 'Is the Wind a Body of moving air?')
Does the wind 'metaphorically' blow where it will?
From where and how does Wind come from – where does it go?
Does the Spirit Being in Heaven have a body? Have you seen it?
Does the Spirit Being from Heaven go where it will ( is there somewhere that the Spirit Being cannot go?)
Wakeup, From where and How does the Spirit Being from Heaven come?
Wakeup, to where and how does the Spirit Being from Heaven go?Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2012,03:53) Hi Toby, That would be a constrictive start.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi EDJ.
Did you mean that or did you mean 'Constructive'!Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 27 2012,00:58) Mike, my point was that – in 1Cor 15:39-42, Paul was not speaking about the Bodies of God or Angels,
Sure he was, Shimmer. He was answering the question, “With what kind of bodies will the dead be raised”. He was trying to answer that question from verse 36 all the way until verse 54.Every bit of it has to do with the bodies the elect will be raised up in.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
