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toby
Quote Jesus and all living beings are already Spirits –
There is God, the Angels, and the other Heavenly hosts in Heaven –this my friend is news to me ,and I have study the bible for now 50 years at the least,so please give me some enlightenment here
Pierre
Quote (toby @ Jan. 24 2012,17:31) I do not agree that Jesus became a Spirit.
I believe that Jesus is an active living Spirit in Heaven.
(There is a difference).
Jesus and all living beings are already Spirits –
Why do you suppose human beings are not called “spirits” like God and the angels are?
Quote (toby @ Jan. 24 2012,17:31) what happened to his Flesh and Bone Body?
It was transformed, like Paul is anxious for his own body to be.Quote (toby @ Jan. 24 2012,17:33) Mikeboll, I see in your reply to Shimmer, that you quote Barnes in your defence and he says:
“It is raised a spiritual body – Not a mere spirit, for then it would not be a body.”What does this say to you?
Barnes is making a distinction between a spirit BEING, who does have a body, and a SPIRIT like the one God sent upon Saul, which doesn't.Why didn't you comment on the rest of the info? Or the info I posted about 2 Cor 5 a week ago?
Maybe 2 Cor 5 should be the new focus of our discussion, Toby.
What do you think of 2 Cor 5:1-4?
Mike,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2012,07:13) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48) We may differ more than you thought, in those two cases the spiritual beings were in their natural state, requiring eyes to be opened to see them, however I do believe angels can temporarily manifest a body if so desired to accomplish an interaction with man.
WHY do you believe that, Wm? Is there any scriptural support to such a notion? If we KNOW that in two instances, eyes were opened to see the spirit being, then why can't that always be the case?
Genesis 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.There are plenty of cases where angels are seen by all and some where they were able to physically interact with people. Why was there no mention of eyes being opened, because they already were physical manifestations.Quote Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48) 49 We were made like that man of earth, so we will also be made like that man of heaven.
So the elect who are raised to heaven will be like Jesus – but NOT like the angels? That doesn't really align with Matthew 22:3 or Luke 20:36, in which Jesus says the elect WILL be like the angels.Are these scriptures talking about physical makeup of beings or becoming a child of God like the angels. Luke 20:36 In that life people are like angels and cannot die. They are children of God, because they have been raised from death.
Quote Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48) Actually since I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God I'm pretty sure He is unique anyway. However as to being the only non-spiritual being, I never said that He was non-spiritual, as I believe He is a spiritual being with a flesh component.
Well, Jesus told us that spirits don't have flesh and bone. And Paul told us that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God. Why then, would you believe Jesus has a flesh component?Wm, you're entitled to your belief, obviously. I just sometimes wonder how people come to believe how they do in the first place. If flesh and bone is a no-no, and flesh and blood is a no-no, then why in the world would anyone think Jesus is made of flesh after he became a SPIRIT? Why would they think he is the ONLY flesh being in a spiritual realm?
You make lots of claims that things are a certain way but your distorting scriptures to do so. Flesh and bones are not a no-no (as you put it) Jesus only stated that spirits do not have flesh and bones. Then you correctly quote that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but use it to support your premise that flesh cannot enter heaven. Tell me, why is there a resurrection, we already have a spirit.
Romans 8:29 God knew them before he made the world. And he decided that they would be like his Son. Then Jesus would be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters.
So it sounds like Jesus is the first of a new breed, not just another angel.My opinion – Wm
william
Quote So it sounds like Jesus is the first of a new breed, not just another angel. 
there is no new breed Quote You make lots of claims that things are a certain way but your distorting scriptures to do so. Flesh and bones are not a no-no (as you put it) Jesus only stated that spirits do not have flesh and bones. Then you correctly quote that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but use it to support your premise that flesh cannot enter heaven. Tell me, why is there a resurrection, we already have a spirit. well you quote two scriptures that says it all 1) spirit do not have flesh and bones ;2) that flesh and bones can not enter heaven ;
you do not believe Jesus ??
now i will give a 3) 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.so you are ahead of Christ and Gods will ,even Paul as become your student
William ,opinions are not truth of God ,but scriptures are , if you don't believe scriptures why bother reading them??
Pierre
2 Corinthians 5:4 While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life. 5 This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2012,00:52) 2 Corinthians 5:4 While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life. 5 This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.
Williamwhy do you not read it the way it is written but slowly
maybe you would understand it ?
2Co 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2Co 5:2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
2Co 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.I got it here so you can read it ,but I can not make you understand it ,this does not belong to me to do,
Pierre
Pierre,
Once again I do not understand what you're trying to say, you say “stick to scripture”, so I only posted scripture with no remarks. Then you tell me to “read it the way it is written” but it is a cut and paste from scriptures. You then post the same scriptures (different translation) but it still says the same thing nothings changed, basically it says “the mortal (body) will be consumed by life. What does that leave… an immortal body.My opinion – Wm
Hi all.
Terraricca has kindly pointed out an error in the post I made, which stated erroneously that 'Jesus and God and mankind are already Spirits'. I am sure your reaction is the same as Terraricca's and hope you can see that it was obviously an error – I apologise for the error. Thank you for pointing it out Terraricca.
The error was made when editing at the beginning while changing what I had originally written. The sentence should have read (now with some additions):
'Jesus in Heaven is a Spirit; God is a Spirit; The Angels and all the Heavenly Hosts are Spirits.
Heaven is the realm of the Spirit.
Man, Animals, Fish, Bird – all earthly living beings, have Spirit in a Flesh body.
'Earth' (The physical world) is the realm of the Flesh.Jesus, in Heaven, is in the form of God – a Spirit.
Jesus on Earth is in the form of Man – Flesh (Glorified Flesh).'As Mike has pointed out: God will cloth the Spirit of his elect. In other words – God will give their Spirit an everlasting body to dwell in on Earth.
The Spirit does not require a body – a body constrains the Spirit. In the Spirit realm, the spirit cannot be constrained (do not think of this in Earthly terms – this is the mistake many people make). Heaven is an limitless invisible immaterial incorporeal environment. A constrained spirit could not accomplish what a free Spirits does in an unconstrained limitless environment.
In the physical world, the spirit must be constrained in a body of some sort, for instance, an 'apparent' flame of fire or an 'apparent' body like that of mankind – as I have already said 'To communicate form to same form (Flesh to Flesh) – Angels appeared in the form of of Men – they were not humankind but took the form of humankind to best communicate with humankind. But they could just as easily appear as a flame of fire – or lightening or wind or water. Note that I do not say they changed form – but that they appeared in that form so as to not frighten the person that they were sent to deliver God's message to (Except in the case of Moses, of course).
Hi Mikeboll. I see you ask Gene to define the word 'Spirit'. I hope you looked it up yourself and see what it is defined as, and that not one single definition entertains the notion of it being 'an embodied being'. In fact it says 'Spirit – as opposed to – Body'.
You cannot therefore use the word 'Body' to describe something that by definition is said to not have a body. It is said to be incorporeal. Perhaps you could invent a word for what you are thinking, but 'Body' is already taken.
(There answereth the thread topic: 'Do Spirits have bodies : No, because by definition Spirit means BODILESS!! Why did it take 454 pages to say that?)
Also, since you say that a Spirit has a body, why does a 'Transformation' need to take place in order for Man to become a 'Spiritual Being'?
{
Mikeboll, I just thought of an illustration for you to ponder:
({})
Consider that the diagram above represents the constrained Spirit '{}' in a flesh body '()' . What then does this represent:
()
And what does this represent:Do you see what i mean?
}Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,11:48)
Hi Shimmer,This is from the commentator Barnes:
It is raised a spiritual body – Not a mere spirit, for then it would not be a body. The word spiritual (πνευματικόν pneumatikon) here stands opposed to the word natural, or animal. It will not be a body that is subject to the laws of the vital functions, or organized or sustained in that way. It will still be a “body” (σῶμα sōma), but it will have so far the nature of spirit as to be without the vital functions which here control the body.Helps Word Studies says:
4152 pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151 /pneúma, “spirit”) – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit,A spiritual body would be a body related to the realm of spirit, such as the realm in which angels live.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon (which can be viewed here), has as its second definition:
belonging to spirit, ie: spiritual powersJames Strong (which can be viewed here), has as one of his definitions: (divinely)supernatural
And Shimmer, I posted all the commentators about 2 Cor 5:1-4 a few pages ago. Read that passage and see if you agree Paul is talking about our natural bodies versus the elect's soon to come spiritual bodies. Notice how he says God won't leave us “naked”, but will clothe us in a dwelling (body) that is different from our earthly dwelling (body).
Hi Mike.
Yes I took a really quick look at those.
But Mike, I don't care what the 'Dictionary' or 'Bible Notes' or what any Notes state. How do we know to trust them? How do we know to trust anyone – even on this Forum?
We should follow Jesus as our Teacher, not Man.
“Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his arm,
whose heart turns away from the LORD”That is for Man.
A Woman should follow and obey Her Husband (If Christ is His Head).And – but – Mike, what do the verses you stated have to do with Spirit Beings (God and the Angels) 'Having a Body'? Example, you quote: 1Cor 15:39-42:
“For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory”
But, Mike, Paul here is speaking of the sun and the moon and the stars, and talks about the Resurrected Bodies. It has nothing to do with the already (prior to the Resurrection) Heavenly Spirit Beings – such as the Angels or God. So if you are trying to prove a point by using those verses (as to God's Body or Form), then, you can't do that. Because Paul is speaking about the Resurrection.
As for Spirit's and Bodies, you need to understanding how Spirit works. Especially in these End Days.
“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places”.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,19:10) Hi Mikeboll. I see you ask Gene to define the word 'Spirit'. I hope you looked it up yourself and see what it is defined as, and that not one single definition entertains the notion of it being 'an embodied being'. In fact it says 'Spirit – as opposed to – Body'. You cannot therefore use the word 'Body' to describe something that by definition is said to not have a body. It is said to be incorporeal. Perhaps you could invent a word for what you are thinking, but 'Body' is already taken.
(There answereth the thread topic: 'Do Spirits have bodies : No, because by definition Spirit means BODILESS!! Why did it take 454 pages to say that?)
Also, since you say that a Spirit has a body, why does a 'Transformation' need to take place in order for Man to become a 'Spiritual Being'?
Toby……….this is absolutely right, Spirits are not bodies, they are what is (IN) bodies.Just that simple no need for any confusion about it. Many scriptures fall into place when we truly understand what a Spirit is. IMO , That is why i started a Thread on what is the meaning of the word Spirit a long, long time ago. Mike changed it to Do Spirit have bodies, Spirits can come into a body and posses that body . But they are and never are a BODY themselves. That is why when a person dies his body corrupts in the grave and his Spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place. Just that simple. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,19:49) Genesis 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.There are plenty of cases where angels are seen by all and some where they were able to physically interact with people. Why was there no mention of eyes being opened, because they already were physical manifestations.
Hi Wm,I'm afraid that is just what you originally thought, and therefore you stand by that first thought. But consider this: If we know of TWO scriptures where eyes were opened, and we know of NO scriptures where angels were said to have “manifested” bodies, then isn't it wiser to assume that all cases were a case of what we DO know happened twice, instead of assuming something that isn't once even hinted at in scripture?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,19:49) You make lots of claims that things are a certain way but your distorting scriptures to do so. Flesh and bones are not a no-no (as you put it) Jesus only stated that spirits do not have flesh and bones.
And Jesus BECAME a life-giving SPIRIT, Wm. SPIRITS do NOT have flesh and bones. Jesus IS a SPIRIT.Wm, I respectfully submit that we agree to disagree.
Peace to you and yours,
mikeQuote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,02:10) Perhaps you could invent a word for what you are thinking, but 'Body' is already taken.
Paul's term “spiritual body” works just fine for me, thanks.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,01:53) The sentence should have read (now with some additions): 'Jesus in Heaven is a Spirit; God is a Spirit; The Angels and all the Heavenly Hosts are Spirits.
Heaven is the realm of the Spirit.
That sounds better.And now my question still stands to you:
Toby, when did Jesus BECOME a spirit?
A. From the time God raised him from the dead?
B. Upon ascension into heaven?
C. Other?Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,01:53) As Mike has pointed out: God will cloth the Spirit of his elect. In other words – God will give their Spirit an everlasting body to dwell in on Earth.
Doesn't that seem an odd thing for God to do, considering the citizenship of the elect is in heaven, and not on earth?Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 25 2012,03:20) But, Mike, Paul here is speaking of the sun and the moon and the stars, and talks about the Resurrected Bodies.
So the elect will be raised with bodies that are shaped like planets and stars? I don't get your point.Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,02:10) (There answereth the thread topic: 'Do Spirits have bodies : No, because by definition Spirit means BODILESS!! Why did it take 454 pages to say that?)
Because the question in the thread title refers to spirits such as angels. And I know of no scriptural source that says angels are “bodiless”, do you? I do, however, know of MANY scriptural sources that actually DESCRIBE what angels look like.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2012,06:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,19:49) Genesis 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.There are plenty of cases where angels are seen by all and some where they were able to physically interact with people. Why was there no mention of eyes being opened, because they already were physical manifestations.
Hi Wm,I'm afraid that is just what you originally thought, and therefore you stand by that first thought. But consider this: If we know of TWO scriptures where eyes were opened, and we know of NO scriptures where angels were said to have “manifested” bodies, then isn't it wiser to assume that all cases were a case of what we DO know happened twice, instead of assuming something that isn't once even hinted at in scripture?
Not any more than your ignoring that Jesus said He was flesh and bones, and try to support some un-hinted second change based on a scripture where even you agreed its no more likely than His servants being “flames of fire.” If angels haven't manifested bodies how do they physically take people by the hand, even Jesus told the apostles to handle Him as proof that He wasn't spirit.Quote Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,19:49) You make lots of claims that things are a certain way but your distorting scriptures to do so. Flesh and bones are not a no-no (as you put it) Jesus only stated that spirits do not have flesh and bones.
And Jesus BECAME a life-giving SPIRIT, Wm. SPIRITS do NOT have flesh and bones. Jesus IS a SPIRIT.Wm, I respectfully submit that we agree to disagree.
Peace to you and yours,
mike
I do not believe there are any eternal consequences to believing either way. And it's no longer a matter of understanding each other so I believe it is quite right to agree to disagreeRomans 14:4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.
We'll let God straighten one (or both) of us out – Wm
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