Do spirits have bodies?

[seekingtruth]

Mike,
Scripture tells us that it is possible to see their (non-manifested) bodies, as we're told God opened the young man's eyes (Not that He changed them so they could be seen) this also means they are not made of flesh or God would not have had to alter their perception to see them.

I believe these scriptures support all I had claimed in my earlier post. As to what their bodies are made of, scripture doesn't give us a clue, but I assume it would be something like flesh (a building block material capable of housing their spirit), except material from their reality.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Numbers 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

As I said there are scriptures supporting this postulation but it is to a large degree speculation.

Wm

[seekingtruth]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,11:02)

Hi Wm What is your answer to the bolded question I just asked Toby in the previous post?

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

We are when this verse comes to pass:

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,15:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,01:30) O Lord, why couldn't you have just said “flesh and blood” in Luke 24:37?   Wm, let's entertain your understanding briefly.  Is it your claim that beings who dwell in heaven consist of flesh, but not blood? Mike, It is my belief that within the spiritual realm that there are; spirits without bodies or really even a form, such as the Holy Spirit that has access to all of creation, the 7 spirits of God may be examples of spirits having form but like a pool they can be tapped into by an infinite number of receiving spirits, than I believe there are those such as angels who have spiritual bodies, not made from the stuff of our reality, but able to temporarily manifest a corporeal body if desired for operating within our realm (although they can crossover without manifesting).  Most of this is pure speculation based on many readings of scriptures, but only my opinion. Now as to flesh, Yes I believe that Jesus is now flesh and bones (since He said it) and I see nothing in scriptures to prevent flesh and bones from entering or inheriting the kingdom of God. I believe it to be based fully on scripture however I'm open to a different interpretation if it aligns better with the whole of scripture. Wm

william

wen we talk body or form we only talk about beings, not powers,the holy spirit is not a being but a power,

and it is my scriptural understanding that all beings have a name and so are distinct of each other ,the fabric of their unit body of form I do not know,but what I know it is not flesh and bones ,just try to go in your body without protection six miles strait up and see if you are alive ,you would be dead quickly,

this is some thing to understand ,read Revelation see how John in the spirit sees huge things ,and Daniel sees angels in a men shape but one foot on one side of the river and the other on the other side ,and in Ezek;“ ‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Eze 28:18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

this is a description how Satan was made before he rebel,

now;
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

was it an elution that the boy received ,more likekly ,GOD DOES NOT FIGHT WITH HORSES AND CHARIOTS,

when he send his angel (one) in the enemy camp he killed 185 000 men in one single night ,no horses or chariots,

wen Moses told what God will do to the first born of Egypt he send his angel ,killed thaussands in one night ,no horses and chariots,

In Sodom did God use horses or chariots NO ,and at the flood ?

please use understanding ,

scriptures also show us the speed that angel have in some instances some pray to God and by the time the prayer is done the angel of God is there with the answer,and we know the distance of our galaxyand beon,

God help us to understand the heavenly structure by ussing a comparason to our world on earth ,

live on earth is for men to dwell not God or his kingdom,

Pierre

[toby]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,13:58)

I don't really see how the ONE question I keep asking Gene affects you, or why you would bring Gene up in a post to me.  You have already admitted the error you made when you said that there were only TWO meanings of “spirit” in scripture; and you have since acknowledged the truth that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”.  I want the same from Gene, and I won't stop until I get it.  It is between me and Gene, and not any of your business.

Hi Mikeboll.  

In the post above, you told me, that your conversation with Gene is not any of my business.
Let me just remind you of a few things that you said – quite a few pages back:  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2011,05:15)

Toby, perhaps you can help Gene to see what I'm saying.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2011,05:15)

I'll get to the rest of your post soon – no time tonight.  But here's where I'm at with Gene: He insists that there is only ONE meaning of “spirit” in the entire scriptures.  He believes that “spirit” ALWAYS means “the intellect inside someone”. But you, I AND Gene know that the disciples thought they were seeing a spirit BEING when they saw the raised Jesus, right? But Luke only used the word “spirit” to describe what they thought they were seeing.  If Luke wrote “spirit”, but meant “spirit being”, then isn't that PROOF POSITIVE that “spirit” MEANS “spirit being” at least once in scripture?  YES or NO? What I'm after is a DIRECT STAND from you.  It seems like you want to remain neutral between Gene and I.  But on this one point, I would like a DIRECT ANSWER from you.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,12:28)

Perhaps when you help Gene to realize that there is more than one meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures – one of which is “spirit being” – then we can move forward to discussing the MANY things “spirit” can mean.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2011,14:46)

That's why I was hoping to show you this truth THROUGH Toby.  But he seems to have taken a break.  Let's wait for him, okay?

And now you say to me:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,13:58)

I don't really see how the ONE question I keep asking Gene affects you, or why you would bring Gene up in a post to me.  You have already admitted the error you made when you said that there were only TWO meanings of “spirit” in scripture; and you have since acknowledged the truth that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”.  I want the same from Gene, and I won't stop until I get it.  It is between me and Gene, and not any of your business.

OK?

[shimmer]

Hi Mike.  

As far as I can see, NETBible 'Notes'  is the only “dictionary” that gives a definition of 'Spiritual', as meaning what you have pointed out.  Can you back your claim any better? (From a number of other sources?)

The reason I say that, is because quite a while back, when you were looking for the meaning to the word 'Celestial', someone found ONE single place that included Angels, yet, to most… 'Celestial' is something in the Heavens, such as the Moon and the Stars.  

Thanks Mike.

[toby]

Mikeboll, Concerning your question to me, that you have asked that I answer: I cannot do better than direct you to SeekingTruth's answer.  SeekingTruth – brilliant answer.  The pivotal point is the use of the flesh based term 'Man' in that verse.  

It is agreed that Jesus is Spirit in Heaven – So how does Paul allude to Jesus being 'Man from Heaven'?  Why not 'Spirit from Heaven'?  Or was Paul saying that Jesus was a Man, before he came to Earth from Heaven? Or had Jesus come back again?  Emphasise the use of the phrase 'from Heaven'!

————————————————————-

And Mikeboll, Can you point out where I 'Admit to an error' over the meaning of 'Spirit'?  I believe I gave several meanings including a sense of togetherness as one (Spirit of a group in behaviour) – more to the point, I don't remember engaging in a dispute with you over this issue as I would never have claimed only two meanings – I think you are mixing up two different things here – never mind, you are forgiven.

Also, as for saying that I finally admitted Spirit Being –  Never have I said that Spirit was not a Being.  In fact I defined it to include Gene's perception so we could move on.  Mikeboll, are you mixing me up with someone else?  You seem to be throwing accusations at me as if you and I had a prior discussion and dispute over it!  And, now you state that 'Spiritual' includes all 'Intellectual Beings', does that not now weaken your argument concerning 'Spiritual Body'?  I mean, it now says what I and others also have been saying.  Therefore, in fact, we all agree that it is the 'Flesh and Bone and Blood' body that was made Spiritual.

Mikeboll, are you saying that Jesus' body was made Spiritual?  Can you say when Scriptures says the body of Christ was made Spiritual?  Can you say when the Elect, the great 'We' will receive their Glorious Bodies?  Ok, to save long backwards and forwards posts – let me give you your answers:  Yes, It was Jesus' corruptible body that was made incorruptible.  Jesus' flesh and bone body was put in the Grave/Tomb without the Spirit in it.  It was raised up (Resurrected) again three Days and Nights later as an 'Incorruptable, Everlasting, Glorious Body' –  Spiritual Body with the Spirit of Jesus in it.  The Elect receive their Glorious Bodies when they are resurrected from their dead state – or, as life will be continuing even to the end of the Earth, and others will be eating and drinking and some partying just as in Sodom and Gomorrah, some then will not taste death but be transformed (sinful body for unsinful body – form for form) in the twinkling of an eye.  Yes, they will receive an imperishable Body that cannot die (Was there ever anything stated that the Spirit can die – or was it just said that God could destroy it?)

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………….Angels (are men) Go read what Jodi posted directly out of our scriptures for PROOF> Angel are (NOT) SPIRIT “BEINGS” they are Being who have SPIRIT (IN) them> Spirit has only ONE MEANING through our all scripture, I challenge anyone to show where there are more then ONE MEANING of SPIRIT in scriptures.

Simply put Spirit (IS) That which produces cognate thought in what ever it is (IN) rather Man or any kind of life form. It's simplest meaning is INTELLECT , It (spirit) is not a he, she, it is and (IT) and comes in all Kinds and TYPES. it just that simple, “now if the Spirit of him that raised Christ Jesus from the dead abide (IN) you (IT) shall “ALSO” quicken (bring to life) your mortal (dead) “BODY”. Now where does it say that that dead Body once “Quickened” is a >Spirit Body< But it is indeed a BODY "REGENERATED" BY SPIRIT. A Spiritual Body.

Now what does it mean to “REGENERATE” it means it was already Generated ONCE before, Yes we “MUST BE (RE-GENERATED) AGAIN. Did not Jesus say “

“You must be BORN “AGAIN”, of WATER and SPIRIT”, why “again” of WATER (AND) SPIRIT becasue once you die that is the only way you can become a “LIVING” SOUL “AGAIN”, you must have a BODY with SPIRIT (IN) it, in order to LIVE “AGAIN” Just that simple why try to make it complex or difficult to understand with all kind of different meaning of the words Spirits and Bodies. This is what it means by ” MYSTERY BABYLON (confusion) THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH”.

When you try to apply Plato ans Aristotle's “metaphysical” teachings to the Truth of God you get all kinds of “Religious” thought and get all kinds of Greek and Pagan thinking as results. Therefore it says, “come out of her my People that you recieve not of her plagues” The plague is to be blinded and live you life in darkness by those false teachings. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………………………gene

[seekingtruth]

Pierre you state:
wen we talk body or form we only talk about beings, not powers,the holy spirit is not a being but a power,

The Holy Spirit is spirit and I believe that there is much we do not know about spirits and the spiritual realm

and it is my scriptural understanding that all beings have a name and so are distinct of each other ,the fabric of their unit body of form I do not know,but what I know it is not flesh and bones ,just try to go in your body without protection six miles strait up and see if you are alive ,you would be dead quickly,

Once again we speak allot about, what we know little about (glorious bodies)

now;
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

was it an elution that the boy received ,more likekly ,GOD DOES NOT FIGHT WITH HORSES AND CHARIOTS,

when he send his angel (one) in the enemy camp he killed 185 000 men in one single night ,no horses or chariots,

wen Moses told what God will do to the first born of Egypt he send his angel ,killed thaussands in one night ,no horses and chariots,

In Sodom did God use horses or chariots NO ,and at the flood ?

Yes a powerful angel can kill thousands upon thousands of men, but is it not possible that something more than man was after Elisha? Beings just as powerful wanting to be rid of this man of God

please use understanding ,

scriptures also show us the speed that angel have in some instances some pray to God and by the time the prayer is done the angel of God is there with the answer,and we know the distance of our galaxyand beon,

And sometimes it takes 3 weeks (Daniel), I believe Heaven is another dimension with portals scattered about for instant access not in some far reaches of space in our reality (speculation on my part).

Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,09:21)

Pierre you state: wen we talk body or form we only talk about beings, not powers,the holy spirit is not a being but a power, The Holy Spirit is spirit and I believe that there is much we do not know about spirits and the spiritual realm and it is my scriptural understanding that all beings have a name and so are distinct of each other ,the fabric of their unit body of form I do not know,but what I know it is not flesh and bones ,just try to go in your body without protection six miles strait up and see if you are alive ,you would be dead quickly, Once again we speak allot about, what we know little about (glorious bodies) now; 2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. was it an elution that the boy received ,more likekly ,GOD DOES NOT FIGHT WITH HORSES AND CHARIOTS, when he send his angel (one) in the enemy camp he killed 185 000 men in one single night ,no horses or chariots, wen Moses told what God will do to the first born of Egypt he send his angel ,killed thaussands in one night ,no horses and chariots, In Sodom did God use horses or chariots NO ,and at the flood ? Yes a powerful angel can kill thousands upon thousands of men, but is it not possible that something more than man was after Elisha? Beings just as powerful wanting to be rid of this man of God please use understanding , scriptures also show us the speed that angel have in some instances some pray to God and by the time the prayer is done the angel of God is there with the answer,and we know the distance of our galaxyand beon, And sometimes it takes 3 weeks (Daniel), I believe Heaven is another dimension with portals scattered about for instant access not in some far reaches of space in our reality (speculation on my part). Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. Wm

william

Quote

And sometimes it takes 3 weeks (Daniel), I believe Heaven is another dimension with portals scattered about for instant access not in some far reaches of space in our reality (speculation on my part).

this is were ?and so will be a contradiction ; “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard,

the reason for intervention are not to be mix with the speed I have mention ,other wise what would you say :it is now 2000 years that Christ give up his live ???

you have imagination where you should have understanding ,

Quote

Once again we speak allot about, what we know little about (glorious bodies)

this is very simple ;what is the inglorious body ? and so a glorious one would be a better one ,right ??yes

the fact that we do not know the materials in what it is made of does not changes that ,this would be were imagination starts.

Quote

Yes a powerful angel can kill thousands upon thousands of men, but is it not possible that something more than man was after Elisha? Beings just as powerful wanting to be rid of this man of God please use understanding ,

yes I wish you do use understanding ,what do you think was the reason for the young man to doubt ? and why was it that Elisha was not,??and why was it that Elisha intervene so that the young man could see what he saw?? and did he saw was it real?? are those the descriptions of Gods army ???and why did God answer the request of Elisha in favor of the young man ?? SO PLEASE GIVE ME SOME OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING TO THOSE QUESTIONS ,

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca…………..Our Bodies are the POWER Source that a Spirit can Use, and these bodies can be increased in POWER as in the case of Samson to refelct what the spirits in them want it (the Bodies to do). Angels or messengers of GOD have the same kind of Bodies as we Have but are stronger then we at times when GOD is using them for his purposes. Go read what Jodi Posted about Angels being Men , You say you are a scripture man then go read it and see if you can find fault with what she posted.

peace and love………………………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2012,10:46)

Terricca…………..Our Bodies are the POWER Source that a Spirit can Use, and these bodies can be increased in POWER  as in the case of Samson to refelct what the spirits in them want it (the Bodies to do).  Angels or messengers of GOD have the same kind of Bodies as we Have but are stronger then we at times when GOD is using them for his purposes. Go read what Jodi Posted about Angels being Men , You say you are a scripture man then go read it and see if you can find fault with what she posted. peace and love………………………………………………gene

gene

you have no Idea of what you talking about ,the body in it self as no power at all ,it is the a robe that the spirit needs to do what it wants to do ,

Just like before the flood ,the angel wanted to mixed with the women of men but so needed a body to do it and took one ,

but it was the angel spirit being that within that body that acted against God by doing all those wicked things not the robe of flesh ,

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Pierre………….O really then try moving without a Body try typing you computer with out a body to do it with. If anyone here has no idea what he is talking about it is YOU Pierre. The control source can come from the Spirit it is (IN) our power “sources” is the Bodies we have. Spirit influence the Mind and it controls the POWER SOURCE the BODY. Much like a man driving a Car he is in control but the CAR is the POWER Source Spirit is powerless unless it is Connected with a Power and a power source is powerless unless it is connected with a spirit So it takes Both to perform any act Just as the Car can not drive itself neither can a Spirit control anything it is Not (IN)> He is something for you to think about Pierre, The seven Spirit of GOD are connected with (HORNS) why is that if the POWER is THEM why should they be described in Rev. as Spirits (AND) seven “HORNS” If they were their own POWER SOURCES>

By the way Angels (messengers) ARE MEN, go read what Jodi Posted DIRECTLY FOR OUR SCRIPTURES . It might help you some IMO

peace and love………………………………..gene

[seekingtruth]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,00:44)

seekingtruth,Jan. wrote: Quote Yes a powerful angel can kill thousands upon thousands of men, but is it not possible that something more than man was after Elisha? Beings just as powerful wanting to be rid of this man of God please use understanding , yes I wish you do use understanding ,what do you think was the reason for the young man to doubt ? and why was it that Elisha was not,??and why was it that Elisha intervene so that the young man could see what he saw?? and did he saw was it real?? are those the descriptions of Gods army ???and why did God answer the request of Elisha in favor of the young man ?? SO PLEASE GIVE ME SOME OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING TO THOSE QUESTIONS , Pierre

Pierre,
the “please use understanding”, was from your post, not mine.

So are you saying that when someones eyes are opened by God, it means their being deceived? I choose to believe what the scriptures say.

Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,11:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,00:44) seekingtruth,Jan. wrote: Quote Yes a powerful angel can kill thousands upon thousands of men, but is it not possible that something more than man was after Elisha? Beings just as powerful wanting to be rid of this man of God please use understanding , yes I wish you do use understanding ,what do you think was the reason for the young man to doubt ? and why was it that Elisha was not,??and why was it that Elisha intervene so that the young man could see what he saw?? and did he saw was it real?? are those the descriptions of Gods army ???and why did God answer the request of Elisha in favor of the young man ?? SO PLEASE GIVE ME SOME OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING TO THOSE QUESTIONS , Pierre Pierre, the “please use understanding”, was from your post, not mine. So are you saying that when someones eyes are opened by God, it means their being deceived? I choose to believe what the scriptures say. Wm

william

Quote

So are you saying that when someones eyes are opened by God, it means their being deceived? I choose to believe what the scriptures say.

IS THIS THE ONLY THING THAT YOU THINK I HAVE SAID ??

READ IT AGAIN

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2012,11:43)

Pierre………….O really then try moving without a Body try typing you computer with out a body to do it with. If anyone here has no idea what he is talking about it is YOU Pierre. The control source can come from the Spirit it is (IN) our power “sources” is  the Bodies we have. Spirit influence the Mind and it controls the POWER SOURCE the BODY. Much like a man driving a Car he is in control but the CAR is the POWER Source Spirit is powerless unless it is Connected  with a Power and a power source is powerless unless it is connected with a spirit So it takes Both to perform any act  Just as the Car can not drive itself neither can a Spirit control anything it is Not (IN)>  He is something for you to think about Pierre, The seven Spirit of GOD are connected with (HORNS) why is that if the POWER is THEM why should they be described in Rev. as Spirits (AND) seven “HORNS” If they were their own POWER SOURCES>   By the way Angels (messengers) ARE MEN, go read what Jodi Posted  DIRECTLY FOR OUR SCRIPTURES . It might help you some IMO peace and love………………………………..gene

gene

you do not even understand what you say,

a body without the spirit is dead,DO NOT MOVE,NOT ACTING,NO BREATHING,DECOMPOSE,

SO THE SPIRIT IN IT IS WHAT MAKE THE BODY MOVE AS IT PLEASES ,IF IT WANTS TO DRIVE  OR TYPING A LETTER ECT…………

Quote

By the way Angels (messengers) ARE MEN, go read what Jodi Posted  DIRECTLY FOR OUR SCRIPTURES . It might help you some IMO

i KNOW WHAT JODI TEACHES SHE IS COMING AND GOING ,SHOW UP HER DECEIVE WAYS AND THEN DISAPPEAR AGAIN,

NO WANDER YOU ARE IN LINE WITH UNTRUTH ,LOOKING FOR YOUR OWN TRUTH MAKE GOD SERVE YOU RATHER THAN SERVING GOD,

Pierre

[seekingtruth]

Pierre,
To be honest, I didn't understand the first part. I know that your just learning English but I have enough issues from mis-understandings with people who only speak English. I will gladly try to answer your questions if you'll present them one at a time and be patient with me as I try to understand.

Thanks – Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,13:11)

Pierre, To be honest, I didn't understand the first part. I know that your just learning English but I have enough issues from mis-understandings with people who only speak English. I will gladly try to answer your questions if you'll present them one at a time and be patient with me as I try to understand. Thanks – Wm

william

no arm done ,and my christian love goes to you and yours,

in my quote to you were I quoted Eze 28;12-
were the description of Satan is made,and so see the material in his making,

and so try to make you understand that has individuals all beings no matter who they are they have a distinct form or type of body,this would make sense because they all have a individual SOUL even God as a SOUL,no one share his SOUL ,

this was all my argument the word HUMANITY = SPIRIT but like humanity is not one person so it is with SPIRIT Beings ,

spirit can also mean other things like ;desires ,thoughts,learning things ,view points ect….

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 22 2012,14:11)

mike back to square ONE Pierre

Yup!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 22 2012,22:28)

this also means they are not made of flesh or God would not have had to alter their perception to see them.

Wm,

We're not too different after all.  I used those same two examples (Balaam and Elisha) in a post to Wakeup just last night!    I agree with you that God can open our eyes to see angels, and not that they “manifest” or “create” bodies when they come to earth.  Otherwise, Balaam's angel would have had to “create” two different bodies – one that only the donkey could see, and one that both the donkey and Balaam could see.

So I agree with you that angels aren't made of flesh.  Here's are two main differences, as I see it:

1.  You don't think “those of heaven” in 1 Cor 15:48 includes those already dwelling in heaven – such as angels.  I think the present tense means that angels are exactly who Paul is referring to.  He is answering the question, “What kind of bodies will the dead be raised in”, remember?  And his answer is, “Spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have”.

Why would this NOT include the angels, Wm?

2.  You seem to agree that angels aren't made of flesh.  And I assume you don't think God is made of flesh.  And you know the scripture that tells us “flesh and blood” can't inherit God's Kingdom.  And you know the scripture that tells us “spirits don't have flesh and bone”.  So what exactly are you thinking about Jesus, then?  Scripture says he became a SPIRIT, but you have asked for a backup scripture, as if that one is not enough.  1 Cor 15:48 says Jesus is now “like those of heaven”, but you think that phrase excludes the angels for some reason.  So where does that leave us?

Wm, do you think Jesus is the only being in heaven who consists of flesh and bone, and is therefore the only non-spirit being in heaven?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,00:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,13:58) I don't really see how the ONE question I keep asking Gene affects you, or why you would bring Gene up in a post to me.  You have already admitted the error you made when you said that there were only TWO meanings of “spirit” in scripture; and you have since acknowledged the truth that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”.  I want the same from Gene, and I won't stop until I get it.  It is between me and Gene, and not any of your business. Hi Mikeboll.   In the post above, you told me, that your conversation with Gene is not any of my business. Let me just remind you of a few things that you said – quite a few pages back:   Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2011,05:15) Toby, perhaps you can help Gene to see what I'm saying. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2011,05:15) I'll get to the rest of your post soon – no time tonight.  But here's where I'm at with Gene: He insists that there is only ONE meaning of “spirit” in the entire scriptures.  He believes that “spirit” ALWAYS means “the intellect inside someone”. But you, I AND Gene know that the disciples thought they were seeing a spirit BEING when they saw the raised Jesus, right? But Luke only used the word “spirit” to describe what they thought they were seeing.  If Luke wrote “spirit”, but meant “spirit being”, then isn't that PROOF POSITIVE that “spirit” MEANS “spirit being” at least once in scripture?  YES or NO? What I'm after is a DIRECT STAND from you.  It seems like you want to remain neutral between Gene and I.  But on this one point, I would like a DIRECT ANSWER from you. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,12:28) Perhaps when you help Gene to realize that there is more than one meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures – one of which is “spirit being” – then we can move forward to discussing the MANY things “spirit” can mean. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2011,14:46)   That's why I was hoping to show you this truth THROUGH Toby.  But he seems to have taken a break.  Let's wait for him, okay? And now you say to me: Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,13:58) I don't really see how the ONE question I keep asking Gene affects you, or why you would bring Gene up in a post to me.  You have already admitted the error you made when you said that there were only TWO meanings of “spirit” in scripture; and you have since acknowledged the truth that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”.  I want the same from Gene, and I won't stop until I get it.  It is between me and Gene, and not any of your business. OK?

Yes Toby.

Did you think I forgot that Gene was coming around to your posts, and so I asked for your help to show him that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”?  I had not forgotten that.  But you did your part, thank you.  And when Gene finally ADMITS what he already knows, but is to prideful to admit, then I will move on to other things with him.

In the meantime, I don't need YOU telling me that Gene has answered the question and I just keep asking again anyway.  Because he dang sure HASN'T answered it yet.

Thank you

(Btw Toby, are you worried that if I keep pestering Gene for the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, he will eventually give in and speak the truth?  Are you worried that once he does this, he'll realize that this thread is for discussion of whether or not spirit BEINGS, such as angels, have bodies?  Are you worried that he'll then agree with me, causing you to lose a perceived ally?  You do realize that Gene already knows that angels have bodies, right?  He just doesn't yet realize that angels are spirits.   )

[Author]

Posts