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Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,21:56) “Flesh and blood” – “and” Conjunction: Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly: “bread and butter”. Is it valid to drop “and blood” as you have done. Look at a math problem; 7 and 8 equals 15, try it your way; 7 equals 15. (not often I can use math to prove a point, Mrs Potter would be so proud of me(4th grade teacher)).
Hi Wm,As I understand it, you think that “blood” is the ONLY thing that cannot inherit the Kingdom of God – is that right? Because it seems that you think “flesh” can, and “bone” can, right?
Why then, didn't Paul simply say “blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”? In 1 Cor 15, when Paul is comparing the different flesh of different things on earth:
1. Why does he not use the word “flesh” to describe the celestial things?
2. What flesh did he mention that does not contain blood?
He speaks of the different “flesh” of eartly things, then switches to the word “body” when moving on to discuss the heavenly things. Why wouldn't he just keep using the word “flesh” when discussing the heavenly things, if heavenly things have a kind of “bloodless flesh”?
(I'm sure Mrs. Potter would be proud of who you turned out to be.
)Toby…………Absolutely right, inherit Not ENTER IT. Fact is the only thing our flesh and blood body inherited was the DNA from our Parents, But as far as the kingdom of God which is a Spiritual Inheritance goes , “Flesh and Blood, can not inherit what is not flesh and blood, “The kingdom of God comes not with observance it is what is WITHIN YOU”, , No where does it say flesh and blood cannot go into the kingdom of GOD or the heavens (it ) just cant “inherit” it> Flesh is flesh and Spirit is the LIFE in that flesh “Body”. It is the LIVING Part of the Soul, the flesh profits nothing other then keeping us distinguished from each other, Flesh serves to separate us one from another, but a type or kind of spirits is the same in all beings, rather God or us, it produces the life (IN) those flesh beings Spirits do not have “BODIES” of ANY KIND, THEY ARE WHAT IS (in) BODIES.
No where does it say Flesh and blood can not go into the kingdom of GOD. If a being who has flesh and blood can be thrown into a furnaces seven time hotter then others and walk around in it and then come out without even a singed hair it certainly can go into the heavens also, and if it can disappear just like the angels can and appear again it can go into the kingdom of God , it just is not the part that “inherits” it, becasue the flesh has no mind of its own to “INHERIT” any thing itself. The flesh is simply the BODY of Matter Mostly WATER, that contains Spirits that is all it is.
It can be created over and over and over, therefore it says (IT) our Bodies, are Sown in weakness, (IT) our Bodies are raised in Power, (IT) our bodies , it is sown a Natural body (IT) our bodies , (IT) our Bodies is raised a “SPIRITUAL Body and as there is a Natural (functioning body) there is also a Spiritual (functioning) “BODY” and as we have born the (IMAGE) of the earthly (in these BODIES) we shall also Bare the (IMAGE) of the Heavenly (in these BODIES). The (IT) there is our BODIES which have being changed by the spirit into eternal living Bodies that live for ever Just as Jesus has a Body Now of flesh and bone and lives for ever in that body.
No scripture say that Jesus flesh and bone Body was ever Changed at anytime to Go to heaven. That is supposition and speculations applied to scriptures and should all be rejected as human reasonings. IMO
and not only they but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to witness, the “REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY” . Yes “THESE BODIES” we now have and live in is what we are waiting to be “REDEEMED”. Not some other BODY but THESE BODIES we NOW HAVE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Mike,
Mrs Potter would more likely be surprised Mike, if all it took, as you propose, was flesh to not inherit, why did Paul say “flesh and blood”. It doesn't matter how strongly you believe it (and I do believe your sincere in your belief), you cannot change what scripture plainly states and it states “flesh and blood”, not or… but and. We may not always agree on an interpretation but I usually believe you to be faithful to scriptures but in this case your whole premise is based on a change made to the scripture, do you not see that?
Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,20:19) Spiritual Body is not Spirit Body. There is no such term as Spirit Body.
1 Cor 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.1. What does “natural body” mean, Toby? 2. Does it not refer to the body belonging to member of nature realm? 3. Why then is it so hard for you to understand that “spiritual body”, in this contex (the context of being CONTRASTED TO “natural body”), refers to the body belonging to a member of the spirit realm?
Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,20:19) It also seems to me, that no matter how many times someone posts something to you, if they aren't saying what you want to read, then – to you, they haven't answered. I see you do that to Gene, and now you are trying to do that with me.
I'm sorry. Perhaps you'll be kind enough to point me to the post where Gene actualy DID tell us the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37. If you cannot do that, then it is clear that you are just trying to use Gene as a diversion from the fact that YOU also don't actually answer the direct questions I've asked of you.I've got three of those questions above. Here's another:
4. Why do you suppose God will raise the elect in a new flesh body that will immediately be shed upon ascension to heaven?
And here are some more (I've bolded and numbered all the questions on this page or you):
5. Toby, what is the question Paul is answering in 1 Cor 15?
35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”6. What is his answer?
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.7. And who exactly has these “spiritual bodies”?
48 ……and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.And what are the definitions of “spiritual”? Again, from NETNotes:
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man
which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowingI already know that you accept definition #1, because I believe we've discussed it before. 8. But will you now be like Gene and accept only one definition of a Greek word when there are clearly many? 9. Or will you accept and acknowledge definition #2 as well?
As you can see, there are now NINE direct questions on this one post. I don't normally ask NINE questions in one post, but six of them are SOME of the questions you've already ignored the first time I asked them. But, were you to choose to only answer ONE of my NINE questions, please answer #7.
So when you actually ANSWER these questions, THEN you can talk to me about how you've answered them already, okay? And btw, telling your own beliefs without any scriptural substantiation does not count as “answering questions”. (Oh, an “scriptural” refers to things pertaining to scripture – just like “spiritual” sometimes refers to things pertaining to spirit beings. The “al” suffix normally has this meaning.)
Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,20:19) Ok, Show me from anywhere the term 'Spirit Body'. If not then please stop using it.
Like I said, the term is “spiritual bodies”, and it is completely scriptural. I don't have to use the term “spirit bodies”, because I'm adept enough to know that “spiritual bodies” in 1 Cor 15 refers to bodies that belong to spirit beings.Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 22 2012,09:48) but in this case your whole premise is based on a change made to the scripture, do you not see that?
Wm,You listed one use of the conjunction “and”, and used mathematics to support your case. Well done!
BUT…………………..
Can not the conjunction “and” also be used in a LIST – such as a list of the many things that can't be in heaven, for example?
Flesh AND blood AND tires AND Satan cannot inherit God's Kingdom.
It doesn't mean that the COMBINATION of all of them can't inherit. It means that NONE of them can inherit.
Do you agree that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom” could just as easily be saying that NEITHER of those two things can inherit?
Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,22:14) And Hi Mikeboll. Can you tell me what 1 Corinth 14:37 means by 'a Spiritual Person'.
If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
Is this a 'Spirit Person' – an Angel?
“And 1 Corinth 3:1 'Spiritual People'
But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.
Both of these verse refer to a meaning OTHER THAN definition #2 on the NETNotes info I provided you. So “NO”, neither refer to spirit beings of heaven.Mike………Mike “Spiritual the UAL means Spirit pertaining to, but it is still “A BODY” being talked about there. You don't seem to understand what a BODY really Is, it appears. It is NOT a SPIRIT of ANY TYPE becasue SPIRITS are NOT BODIES at ALL, we HUMANS Have BODIES. Bodies are made of MATERIAL MATTER, not so much as one scripture says SPIRITS (ARE BODIES) of ANY KIND. If so Produce that scripture. Instead of just continuing your own speculations and trying to force it on people.
Saying you “ADAPT” only show you have no idea what you are saying as regards to “Spirit Bodies” That seem to be you very problem here you “ADAPT” your preconceived views to scriptures, and get all kinds of meaning from them also. AS i have told you before you are Forcing the text to say what in fact it does not truly say, you giving them Mike version as to what they should say and mean. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
I've asked you not to speak to me on this thread until you're ready to tell us the DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,23:57) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 22 2012,09:48) but in this case your whole premise is based on a change made to the scripture, do you not see that?
Wm,You listed one use of the conjunction “and”, and used mathematics to support your case. Well done!
BUT…………………..
Can not the conjunction “and” also be used in a LIST – such as a list of the many things that can't be in heaven, for example?
Flesh AND blood AND tires AND Satan cannot inherit God's Kingdom.
It doesn't mean that the COMBINATION of all of them can't inherit. It means that NONE of them can inherit.
Do you agree that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom” could just as easily be saying that NEITHER of those two things can inherit?
Mike,
Math now English!!!
No I don't, a list of selective items uses the conjunction “or”.“or” – Conjunction: Used to link alternatives: “a cup of tea or coffee”; “are you coming or not?”.
“and” – Conjunction: Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly: “bread and butter”.
Is there another scripture to support your position?
Wm
O Lord, why couldn't you have just said “flesh and blood” in Luke 24:37?
Wm, let's entertain your understanding briefly. Is it your claim that beings who dwell in heaven consist of flesh, but not blood?
MIke……… LUK 24:37…..> But they were terrified and frightened, (now listen closely Mike) and “SUPPOSED” that they had seen a spirit. 38..> And he said unto them Why are ye troubled” and why do thoughts arise in you hearts? 39…> Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me, and see; (Now Pay attention MIKE) ; for (A) SPIRIT has (NOT FLESH and BONES), as you see Me HAVE. Now you can “ADAPT” and “ASSERT” anything you want to there MIKE but it does not say a SPIRIT has a Body of (ANY KIND) There no matter how much you want to “ADAPT” OR “ASSERT” MIKE.
Any honest person would admit that Mike. And i also have given many time my DEFINITION of WHAT SPIRIT (IS). They are (INTELLECTS) and which give us all Cognate thoughts They are what LIFE IS and are expressed through WORD. Just believe what Jesus Said they were MIKE, Maybe this will help you i have quoted many many times . JESUS SAID , THE WORDS I AM SPEAKING UNTO YOU (ARE) SPIRIT AND (ARE) LIFE. JUST that SIMPLE nothing more and Nothing Less, Not one word about them being a body of any kind by Jesus ever.
Who gave you the right to control this thread, or what anyone says here? I started this thing about what is Spirit a long time age and you changed it to “Do spirit have bodies”, And there is NO “DEFINITION OF SPIRIT” IN LUKE 24:37 GIVEN, but in fact what Spirit is NOT. Saying it is saying there is a “spirit body” is your “ADAPTATION” TO the word SPIRIT . You simply want us to agree with YOU ADAPTATION of that WORD>
No one Here should have to GO by any of YOUR “ADAPTATIONS” and say that Luk 24:38 is any kind of PROOF TEXT about what SPIRITS ARE at all, when in fact it is about what they are NOT> Just pure garbage your trying to force down peoples throats . IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2012,12:41) And i also have given many time my DEFINITION of WHAT SPIRIT (IS).
Yes Gene, but “intellect inside someone” doesn't really fit the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37, does it? So perhaps there are more than one meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures, don't you think?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2012,12:41) MIke……… LUK 24:37…..> But they were terrified and frightened, (now listen closely Mike) and “SUPPOSED” that they had seen a spirit.
Yes Gene, they “SUPPOSED” they had SEEN a spirit. Now, please give us the DEFINITION for the word “spirit” in that verse. Because surely they didn't “SUPPOSE” they had SEEN an “intellect inside someone” that happened to look like Jesus, right?Mike…………It appears they no more Knew what a Spirit was then you do. So just admit it , you have no clue what a Spirit is even thought as i have quoted many, many, many time what Jesus said (IT) was. Now tell us Mike if Jesus said his words (ARE) SPIRIT , that only leaves ONE question what is a Word Let me help you (it is INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE) so now with that understand can we say SPIRIT (IS) (INTELLECT) we CAN “UTTER” Just that simple Mike nothing difficult about it. There was and is no need to run all over the place looking for what is not said and forcing text to say what it in fact it does not say IMO>
peace and love………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2012,13:51) Mike…………It appears they no more Knew what a Spirit was then you do. So just admit it , you have no clue what a Spirit is even thought as i have quoted many, many, many time what Jesus said (IT) was. Now tell us Mike if Jesus said his words (ARE) SPIRIT , that only leaves ONE question what is a Word Let me help you (it is INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE) so now with that understand can we say SPIT (IS) (INTELLECT) we “UTTER” Just that simple Mike nothing difficult about it. There was and is no need to run all over the place looking for what is not said and forcing text to say what it in fact it does not say IMO> peace and love………………………………………………………..gene
mikeback to square ONE
Pierre
Gene, Mikeboll, Terraricca, Shimmer, and anyone else:
I notice that only SeekingTruth has done the little quiz so far – is there any reason why you guys have not done it? There are no 'Catch' questions in there – It is not designed to trap anyone – it's just to get a better understanding of what you believe you are reading in Scriptures.
SeekingTruth answered, and although I don't agree with ALL of his answers, I have not commented, other than to thank him for responding with his answers.
Why not just have a go – remember: your belief is your belief.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,01:30) O Lord, why couldn't you have just said “flesh and blood” in Luke 24:37? Wm, let's entertain your understanding briefly. Is it your claim that beings who dwell in heaven consist of flesh, but not blood?
Mike,
It is my belief that within the spiritual realm that there are; spirits without bodies or really even a form, such as the Holy Spirit that has access to all of creation, the 7 spirits of God may be examples of spirits having form but like a pool they can be tapped into by an infinite number of receiving spirits, than I believe there are those such as angels who have spiritual bodies, not made from the stuff of our reality, but able to temporarily manifest a corporeal body if desired for operating within our realm (although they can crossover without manifesting). Most of this is pure speculation based on many readings of scriptures, but only my opinion.Now as to flesh, Yes I believe that Jesus is now flesh and bones (since He said it) and I see nothing in scriptures to prevent flesh and bones from entering or inheriting the kingdom of God.
I believe it to be based fully on scripture however I'm open to a different interpretation if it aligns better with the whole of scripture.
Wm
Hi Mikeboll. I apologise that this is such a long post, it is three posts in one.
Mikeboll.All your questions have been answered – every last one of them.
You simply ignore them when they don't agree with what you want to hear/read.You claim that 'Spiritual Body' means 'Spirit Body', when there is not one single shred of evidence of use of such a term – no where.
As far as anything to do with Gene is concerned, I have told you that I do not agree nor disagree with all that He says – but that I understand, due to the Sadducean thinking. Gene has never denied such. Sadduceans do not believe in Angel Spirits and so it is pointless trying to convert him. You should try accepting differences in others beliefs (a mean convictions and not deliberate misbeliefs aimed at winning points in a debate situation).
Since I have been posting to Gene, we have moved past the stumbling block of 'Being' – I accepted his explanation – which flies in the face of what you say that he has not answered you. Not only has he answered you, but restated it – over and over, as others here (myself included) have done. Again, it is you, Mikeboll, who cannot accept an answer that does not say what YOU want to hear.
Mike – what IS a Spiritual Person?
Spiritual People – surely this means Spirit People, Mikeboll.
And so there were flesh and blood and bone 'Spirit People' among the sinful ones who had Yet been 'Transformed' in the air.
Ok, I see what you mean now.
So Paul says that those who are 'Infants in Jesus' are not yet Spirit Persons.
But Paul will teach them, when they are Spirit persons. Even before their death and resurrection or instant transformation from FLESH and blood and bone to 'Spirit Body' (Your term).It's amazing, how you have been searching the Scriptures, and you did not come to use Spirit Person/People as one of your proof verses. Surely 'Spirit Person' proves you are right – a Spirit Person must have a body, a flesh and blood and bone body!
———————————————————————-
Anyway, the following two posts I drafter earlier, so I'll post them anyway:
Hi Mikeboll.
This is in response to 'why would they get new bodies and then just she'd them.
Mikeboll, The citizenship of the great 'We'… (Mikeboll, not all people of the resurrection and eternal life go to Heaven)… But, the citizenship of the great 'We' may be in Heaven, BUT Revelation states, that their Rulership will be on the Earth. When Jesus comes back, he will be “In like manner to that which you saw him leave”. Tell me, in what manner was Jesus when he left? Flesh and Bone or Spirit? Why does Scriptures refer to Jesus as 'The Man from Heaven', and not 'The Spirit from Heaven'? (No, not that he is a Man in Heaven, but for the people hearing Paul says 'The Man' as being the form they will see him in).
And those citizens will also materialise their bodies when they return to earth.
Mikeboll, I could also ask you, what was the point of Jesus being raised in a flesh and bone body – if it was just transformed forty days later. Yet – the great 'We' will have theirs done instantly –
Mike, you have a 'disconnect' somewhere in your theory.
You admit that Jesus was raised in a flesh and bone body. You disregard that Paul says that 'The Body will be raised incorrupt'. You cannot admit that the term 'Spiritual Body' means 'Glorious Body'. You therefore create a new term called 'Spirit Body', that no one has ever heard of, and that you can't produce any evidence of. No, Mikeboll. Continually repeating that SpiritUAL Body means 'Spirit Body', does not make it any more valid. Please stop using made up terms.
Let us agree, that there is not a single shred of evidence (you like this) that anything happened as Jesus ascended to Heaven.
Let us only agree that there was – must have been – some change to aspects of Jesus before he 'entered' Heaven.
Where then do you get your evidence of the great transformation into the Glorious Body, The Spiritual Body, the great event so heavily outlined by Paul.
From your perspective it was a non-event.
From my perspective it was at the Raising Up of the Body.
Which was also why Mary did not recognise him.
His changed, his transformed (Same form) Body was made Glorious and clothed in White (Signifying Purity of Body and Spirit).
Also, after this glorious event, Jesus performed miraculous things never occurring before with a flesh and bone body.
(namely appearing and dissapearing at will, at any place at any time.Mikeboll, if you want people to take your theory with even a pinch of salt credibility, then you need to substantiate your theory with better Scriptural Evidence, that does not require redefining words, or changing them (Example – 'Inherit' not 'Enter', 'Spiritual' not 'Spirit', 'IT (Body) Raised in Incorruption, not 'Spirit' raised in incorruption')
———————–
Quote Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,02:48)
Mikeboll, the Spirit is already a formQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,02:48) Praise Jah! You have come far since the last time we talked!” Mike, I have never ever said that Spirit was not a Form.
Quote Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,02:48)
And, a Form is not a Body.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,02:48) Doh! And now we're back to square one. Mikeboll, that is Childish! There is no requirement to belittle that which you cannot understand in such a way.
Mikeboll, what is the Form of Water? Is it not Liquid?
What is the Form of Air? Is it not Gas?
What is the Form of the Earth? Is it not a Solid ? (Don't get technical here!)
What is the Form of Man? Is it not Flesh?
What is the Form of God? Is it not Spirit?
Mikeboll, what is the Form of an Angel/Spirit when seen by Man? Is it not 'Of a Man' or even 'As a Flame of Fire'?The latter: the Angel Manifested itself (was Manifested) in the Form described. It Appeared in those Forms. It Appeared to mankind
in those Forms. The people were either told straight off ,that the Being in the Form was an Angel/Spirit (Peter in Prison, Moses at the bush, Mary (betrothed of Joseph), Paul on the road to Damascus, and others) or they Later realised it (Abraham, Lot, Manoah, others).Mikeboll, how do you construct a meaningful sentence that says 'The Form of God is 'Body' when you know that the Form of God is 'Spirit'?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 22 2012,15:09) I believe there are those such as angels who have spiritual bodies, not made from the stuff of our reality,
Wm,And what do these beings consist of? Jesus makes it clear that they can't consist of flesh and bone in Luke 24:37. And Paul makes it clear that they can't consist of flesh and blood in 1 Cor 15:50.
So what do you suppose they consist of?
Toby,
Let's clear up a few things, okay?
First of all, like I've already explained to you, I DON'T NEED TO USE THE TERM “SPIRIT BODY”, BECAUSE I COMPLETLY UNDERSTAND THE TERM “SPIRITUAL BODY” IN 1 COR 15. So let's not even waste space with any more nonsense about me “making up terms”, okay?
Secondly, Gene has NOT told me the definition of “spirit” in Luke 24:37. He has told me that it DOESN'T mean “intellect inside someone”, and he has told me that “intellect inside someone” is the ONLY definition of “spirit” in the scriptures. He tries to keep talking in circles, as if the rest of us don't know what he's doing, in order to NOT have to tell me what he KNOWS to be the truth – because telling me the truth will mean that he will have to eat the 4000 times he's told the rest of us that WE don't understand what a spirit is, and his pride won't allow him to do that.
Anyway, I don't really see how the ONE question I keep asking Gene affects you, or why you would bring Gene up in a post to me. You have already admitted the error you made when you said that there were only TWO meanings of “spirit” in scripture; and you have since acknowledged the truth that “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit BEING”. I want the same from Gene, and I won't stop until I get it. It is between me and Gene, and not any of your business.
Now that those things are cleared up, I will now address ONE of the points from your LONG post, and leave you with a direct question that I want DIRECTLY answered. (You know, one of the questions you say you've already answered before.)
Quote (toby @ Jan. 22 2012,16:08) Mike – what IS a Spiritual Person?
A spiritual person could be God, Jesus, any angel, any demon, or any human being – depending on the context with which the term was used.Now, for my question:
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.Toby, WHO are “those who are of heaven” in verse 48?
If you have answered this before, I apologize for missing your answer. I don't usually read longs posts from anyone here. If that is the case, please just re-answer it (ONLY THIS ONE QUESTION) in your next response to me. That will serve the purpose of moving forward toward truth better than you saying “I already answered it” while I'm left hanging not knowing what your answer was.
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