Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Jan. 20 2012,01:49)

Hi Mikeboll.

In regard to your question, 'Do I believe Jesus is now a Spirit'
Yes.
Scriptures say that Jesus is now a life giving Spirit.

Agreed. And do you believe the following scripture?
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

To me, that says Jesus has a body NOW. And the fact that Jesus will TRANSFORM the lowly, earthly bodies of the elect into bodies better suited to a heavenly citizenship makes a good case for the lowly, earthly body in which Jesus died AND was raised to have been TRANSFORMED upon his ascension into heaven, where we both agree that flesh cannot be.

You understand it as Jesus shedding his body upon heavenly ascension. But why then is Paul anxious to have his lowly body transformed into one like Jesus has now?

Quote (toby @ Jan. 20 2012,01:49)

The question I would like to ask you is: 'How did Jesus change from a flesh and bone body – into a Spirit form'

I assume his body was TRANSFORMED upon his ascension. We both agree that a change took place, right? What makes a body being transformed any harder to explain than the shedding of a body entirely?

January 20, 2012 at 11:12 pm#273509

Participant

Mike……….. Point 1……> Reread what Paul said he said Our citizenship (IS) in Heaven, that is not later that is NOW>

Point 2……> The question put to you is ” how or for that matter when Did Jesus change from flesh and bone body – into Spirit Form, Answer NEVER becasue Spirit has no “FORM” and your “I ASSUME” answer, is only speculation becasue you have no proof he did Change at all. So Speculation is all you Metaphysical believers and followers of Plato”s and Aristotle”s teachings can come up with . Produce Scriptural Proof of you Metaphysical Morphing Process if you want us to take you seriously. IMO

peace and love………………………………………………………gene

January 21, 2012 at 12:15 am#273549

Blocked

Gene,

Don't even talk to me until you're ready to give me the DEFINITION of “spirit” in Luke 24:37, okay?

I quickly glance at your posts, and I always notice that you are against me at every turn. And I laugh to myself because you apparently aren't even aware that you and I agree on this thread!

The question of this thread is whether or not spirit beings, such as angels, have bodies in heaven.

We agree that they do, Gene!

January 21, 2012 at 8:56 am#273630

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 21 2012,03:46)

To ALL………Good question , HOW did Jesus change from flesh and bone to a spirit “Body”, i maintain he did not changes his body to Spirit, Because Spirit are NOT BODIES, No scripture say they are , now if there is one no one has produced it yet. Now there are flesh and blood bodies that were thrown into a furnace that was seven time hotter then most and were seen walking around in the midst of the fire and came out with those flesh and blood bodies, also there were flesh and blood bodies the disappeared as in the case of Phillip, and there were flesh and blood bodies that walked on water , Jesus and Peter, and GOD said a flesh and blood body could eat of the tree of life and live for ever, and Angels ate food had Bodies . Another point , All resurrections in the Scriptures Shows a Flesh and Bone and also Blood in some cases, but not ONE as a SPIRIT BODY, why is that? It is obvious becasue Spirit do not HAVE BODIES they are What is (IN) BODIES. Just that simple nothing complicated about it. Some say flesh and blood can not enter into the Kingdom of (or From) heaven. That is true because the Kingdom of Heaven is not a place it is a Spirit Presence within a person rather flesh and blood or flesh and bone it is not a location as most assume.

The mingling of Spirits as BODIES are one of the greatest confusions in religion, it stems from the Metaphysical pagan thoughts like the Greeks and Egyptians and all kind of pagan cultures thinking spirit are bodies , did Jesus have two “Bodies within him when he said the Father was (IN) him, did the man who had a thousand unclean spirit in him have a thousand Spirit BODIES in him, no they did not, becasue Spirit are not Bodies and never were just pagan confusion garbage.

Why has Mike or anyone else here for that manor, who say there are “Spirit Bodies” not address any of these questions, but yet maintain they are right. The reason they don't address those issues is becasue they can't understand the power of God nor that Spirits are Never Bodies never were and never will be Bodies of any type either. They are simply Cognate Thoughts (intellects) that are expressed and are transmitted by words through the air or written words.

The closest thing some can produce is some disciple “THOUGHT” they SAW a SPIRIT as if that means there exists a Spirit BODIES, when in fact they saw Jesus' BODY and NO SPIRIT at ALL according to JESUS. Jesus went on to say spirits do not have bodies as you see i have so they who are confused say that means a different “KIND” of Body, O really then please produce ONE SCRIPTURE that describes that “SPIRIT BODY” interesting not even ONE. Some take the word “SPIRITUAL” and thinks that means a BODY made up of Spirit, Well if that were the case thy could never be seen as a body then. Spirit is Simply spirit and Bodies are simply bodies they are “NOT” the same, not now or ever will be. God who is Spirit created Bodies to indwell , therefore as it is said. “NO YOU NOT YOUR “BODIES” (ARE) THE TEMPLES OF THE LIVING GOD”. Metaphysical thinking is PURE PAGAN THINKING>

that God may be (IN ALL) and “THROUGH ALL” God is Spirit not a BODY of any kind, IMO.

peace and love to you all…………………………………….gene all…………………………………………………………….gene

Gene, fantastic post. Well laid out and examples given. I was mesmerised at your writing. Ok, there were issues, but none more than would have been pointed out by Jesus in the manner of which he responded to the pagan woman who begged Jesus to heal her son but she wasn't a Jew. Your post here had faith and conviction – even as you are of the Sadduccean class.

January 21, 2012 at 9:10 am#273631

Participant

Hi Mikeboll.

Thank you for your response – however it appears that you misunderstand the word 'transform' – or dematerialisng?
I am sure you have a credible dictionary that you can refer to for the meaning!

Since Jesus is a Spirit now and his Spirit was in his Body, then you are either saying that Flesh and Bone are the 'Body' of the 'Spirit' – or you are saying…something else? You are saying that Jesus' flesh and bone body transformed into a Spirit Body. Yet there is not a single reference to 'Spirit Body' anywhere in any Scriptural terminology except for the Mormons. Mikeboll, please say that you are a Mormon (or else ignore their philosophy).

January 21, 2012 at 9:21 am#273632

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,05:34)

tobi

there are many,many sighting of angels that came down to earth and were touch by men and spoken to ,eat with, wrestled with

and tell me how did they do it ??

because at the time of the encounter they were in human form
how is that ?angels are after all spirit being NO ??

Hi Terrarica. I wholly agree with you on that point. Can you say more? What's your view? Thanks Terrarica.

January 21, 2012 at 9:43 am#273635

Participant

A little quiz here, please answer with honesty according to your own understanding:

2) A number of people in Scriptures are described as dying and were brought back to life again. This is called being 'Resurrected'. Yet these people still died again (No, there is no proof – it is an inference from the fact that they are not living today – or at least not identified themselves as being one of the resurrected!) When these people died, we're they resurrected (raised up) again in the same Body that they died in?

3) Were these people immediately recognised again, as the same people who had died (Lazarus, for instance)?

4) Were their bodies different in any way to when they died (eliminating the obvious point of whatever it was that killed them!)

5) Jesus Christ also died – and was raised up again. With reference to questions 2, 3 and 4 above, how was Jesus' resurrection different from all other resurrections?

6) Going a little deeper – The Apostle Paul declares to the Corinthians in regard to the resurrection: “It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption” What is the “IT” that is referred to in that statement?

7) Scriptures states that those who attain to the resurrection (and follow through after the judgement) will 'Live Forever'. Since the Spirit of a person never dies (But can be destroyed) what part of the person is then 'Living forever'?

8) A body that can 'Live forever' can be assumed to be 'self healing' and 'none ageing'. Would not such a Body be 'Glorious'? Who would not want a body that was 'Glorious'?

9) What are the following in your opinion and give Scriptural reference to each?:
a) a Glorious Body
b) a Spiritual Body
c) a Spirit Body

10) What is 'The Spirit' in regard to the 'The Body' and why is 'The Spirit' only ever mentioned as being 'A Form' – never 'A Body'?

These are simple answers, so please do not feel an essay is required to answer them, unless you feel the need to express a more extravagant response. Please take this quiz as a personal quiz. Feel free to comment on each others answers. Thank you!

January 21, 2012 at 12:41 pm#273646

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,07:10)

Quote (toby @ Jan. 19 2012,16:45)

But, since we know that a flesh and bone body cannot exist in the Spirit realm, we can state by inference that a change did take place.

I agree with this. Wm, how about you?

If you have other scripture(s) to back this up please let me know, otherwise haven't you misquoted 1 Corinthians 15:50 the words “inherit” is used, not “exist”, and “blood” not “bones”.

Also it does not state “spiritual realm” but “Kingdom of Heaven”. Does not the Kingdom of Heaven come to earth during the millennium? Are there not Flesh and Blood human's here at that time? Do they inherit it? No, not until they are resurrected (transformed) into their glorious body that by Jesus' own words includes flesh and bones (I really don't have a problem that He may be able to transform from flesh and bones to a spiritual form at will but even that is saying more then what scripture states).

Mike,
You never answered my question “why did Jesus make a big deal out of “see it's me, flesh and bones” (why was Jesus deceiving them)”.

Speculate all you want just don't credit it to scripture lest you be found “adding to scripture”

January 21, 2012 at 1:31 pm#273651

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,16:43)

A little quiz here, please answer with honesty according to your own understanding:

1) Jesus came to save mankind from ultimate death. Death in mankind is caused by Sin, and Sin corrupts the body and the mind. What is meant by the word or the term 'Death' in terms of mankind on Earth?

Ceasing to exist where once you dwelt, either life in general or dying to self (walking after the Spirit not the flesh).

2) A number of people in Scriptures are described as dying and were brought back to life again. This is called being 'Resurrected'. Yet these people still died again (No, there is no proof – it is an inference from the fact that they are not living today – or at least not identified themselves as being one of the resurrected!) When these people died, we're they resurrected (raised up) again in the same Body that they died in?

Yes, I do not believe they received their glorious body but God simply re-animated their flesh and blood body.

3) Were these people immediately recognised again, as the same people who had died (Lazarus, for instance)?

Same body

4) Were their bodies different in any way to when they died (eliminating the obvious point of whatever it was that killed them!)

No, they died again

5) Jesus Christ also died – and was raised up again. With reference to questions 2, 3 and 4 above, how was Jesus' resurrection different from all other resurrections?

We're told He demonstrated that death had been conquered and He displayed His glorious body (including it's ability to transcend our physical barriers)

6) Going a little deeper – The Apostle Paul declares to the Corinthians in regard to the resurrection: “It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption” What is the “IT” that is referred to in that statement?

The body

7) Scriptures states that those who attain to the resurrection (and follow through after the judgement) will 'Live Forever'. Since the Spirit of a person never dies (But can be destroyed) what part of the person is then 'Living forever'?

Body, soul, spirit.

8) A body that can 'Live forever' can be assumed to be 'self healing' and 'none ageing'. Would not such a Body be 'Glorious'? Who would not want a body that was 'Glorious'?

No argument there

9) What are the following in your opinion and give Scriptural reference to each?:
a) a Glorious Body
Philippians 3:21 He will change our humble bodies and make them like his own glorious body. Christ can do this by his power, with which he is able to rule everything. (self explanatory)

b) a Spiritual Body
1 Corinthians 15:44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. (I believe this to be our glorious body to be ruled by our spirit in communion with God's Spirit, instead of our flesh)

c) a Spirit Body

There are no scriptures that I know of.

10) What is 'The Spirit' in regard to the 'The Body' and why is 'The Spirit' only ever mentioned as being 'A Form' – never 'A Body'?

Form is defined as “The visible shape or configuration of something” while body is defined as “Give material form to something abstract.” Form is a better word to use than body as by definition body entails something physical, something the spirit realm is not.

These are simple answers, so please do not feel an essay is required to answer them, unless you feel the need to express a more extravagant response. Please take this quiz as a personal quiz. Feel free to comment on each others answers. Thank you!

Thanks Toby – Wm

January 21, 2012 at 2:02 pm#273653

seekingtruth

Participant

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Many teach that this verse excludes Jesus from being anything but spirit. If that is the case then His servants all must be “flames of fire”

Hebrews 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

January 21, 2012 at 4:01 pm#273659

Participant

To All…………….Simply PUT, Spirit (ALL) SPIRIT was and is a CREATION of GOD, Any Spirit God created can indwell a Body of any kind if it contains moisture “WATER” even plants and animals fish birds all of God creation is controlled and composed of Spirits, but it can't indwell itself, but (IT) can indwell hundreds of billions of bodies at the same time, that very same Spirit can indwell you me and everyone in the entire world, be it clean or unclean makes no difference it is all spirits, they come in “TYPES and KINDS” if you seek and allow in to you the clean Spirits you will become clean if you allow the unclean to come into your mind you will become unclean, there is no new Spirit in existence. While that Spirit coming into you may be new to you , but it always existed it tends to form that part of LIFE and imparts (IT'S) cognate thoughts to Us in our minds, these Spirits make up our Intellects by inducing thoughts in our Material brain. They compose what our minds are and therefore what our lives are. so a man thinks so he (IS)

Now seeing that all spirits (intellects) always existed , and there is no “NEW ONE” it comes down to a matter of what we allow or open up to. It is what we LOAD into ourselves what type or kind, Spirit can not Just come into us we must open and seek them, they all stand at the door of our minds knocking to come in, it is just a matter of who we are letting in.

You can see spirit as a Person that comes to the Door of your house and Knocks , but you have the power to let (IT) IN. Is this not what (IT) says. i stand at the door and knock if anyone opens to me i will come in and sup with him. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………………………………………………………….gene

January 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm#273661

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2012,09:01)

To All…………….Simply PUT, Spirit (ALL) SPIRIT was and is a CREATION of GOD, Any Spirit God created can indwell a Body of any kind if it contains moisture “WATER” even plants and animals fish birds all of God creation is controlled and composed of Spirits, but it can't indwell itself, but (IT) can indwell hundreds of billions of bodies at the same time, that very same Spirit can indwell you me and everyone in the entire world, be it clean or unclean makes no difference it is all spiirts, they come in “TYPES and KINDS” if you seek and allow in to you the clean Spirits you will become clean if you allow the unclean to come into your mind you will become unclean, there is no new Spirit in existence. While that Spirit coming into you may be new to you , but it always existed it tends to form that part of LIFE and imparts (IT'S) cognate thoughts to Us in our minds, these Spirits make up our Intellects by inducing thoughts in our Material brain. They compose what our minds are and therefore what our lives are. so a man thinks so he (IS)

You can see spirit as a Person that comes to the Door of your house and Knocks , but you have the power to let (IT) IN. Is this not what Jesus said. i stand at the door and knock if anyone opens to me i will come in and sup with him. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………………………………………………………….gene

gene

water??

January 21, 2012 at 5:23 pm#273685

Participant

Terricca…Yes WATER a spirit goes about in (ARID) Places looking for rest, It requires a Body containing Moisture or water to reside (IN). That is why the unclean Spirit came back into the man it left again and why the Legions of Spirits went into the Pigs and ran into the sea. Why do you think Jesus said “YOU MUST BE Born “AGAIN” WITH “WATER “AND” SPIRIT.

Pierre if you have a better explanation lest hear it> O Wise ONE!……..:D

January 21, 2012 at 6:23 pm#273690

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2012,10:23)

Pierre if you have a better explanation lest hear it> O Wise ONE!……..:D

gene

only God is wise;and his wisdom is made available to us through his words of wisdom,

Quote

Terricca…Yes WATER a spirit goes about in (ARID) Places looking for rest, It requires a Body containing Moisture or water to reside (IN).

your understanding is very earthly ,not spiritual ,and so do not understand Christ or scriptures ,

Mt 12:43 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.
Lk 11:24 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’

do you now understand what Christ means ?

if not ;tell me I will explain it to you,

Pierre

January 21, 2012 at 6:48 pm#273696

Participant

Terricca…………..So tell us all what a Spirit (IS) “O WISE ONE” is the Spirit of wisdom “REALLY” a SHE or is it “REALLY” JESUS as YOU CLAIM (IT) Is , it is you who are trying to make a Spirit into “PERSONS” not I, becasue you view them as “PERSONS” with their own Personal Minds as individual living self contained lives “BEINGS” who have who exist without Bodies of their own . Because Jesus spoke in “proverbs ” (fictitious Illustrations) at times is why your carnal (earthly mind) cant understand what he was saying in this as well as other things, So to me, to accuse others of what you do is the sign of a truly ignorant person IMO.

peace and love…………………………………………..gene

January 21, 2012 at 8:05 pm#273706

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,02:10)

it appears that you misunderstand the word 'transform' – or dematerialisng?
I am sure you have a credible dictionary that you can refer to for the meaning!

Hi Toby,

NETNotes describes the Greek word “metaschematizo” as:
to change the figure of, to transform

The question is: How are YOU reading it as “de-materialize”?

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,02:10)

You are saying that Jesus' flesh and bone body transformed into a Spirit Body.

That is correct.

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,02:10)

Yet there is not a single reference to 'Spirit Body' anywhere in any Scriptural terminology except for the Mormons.

It is written as “SPIRITUAL body”, and is fully explained to us in 1 Cor 15.

Toby, what is the question Paul is answering in 1 Cor 15?
35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

What is his answer?
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

And who exactly has these “spiritual bodies”?
48 ……and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

And what are the definitions of “spiritual”? Again, from NETNotes:
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man
which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

I already know that you accept definition #1, because I believe we've discussed it before. But will you now be like Gene and accept only one definition of a Greek word when there are clearly many? Or will you accept and acknowledge definition #2 as well?

January 21, 2012 at 8:21 pm#273708

Participant

MIke …………….Not matter what you say SPIRITS ARE “NOT” BEINGS< they are what is (IN) BEINGS. Just that simple only one simple meaning of Spirit , they do not have many different meanings as you "PRESUME". IMO

peace and love……………………………………………..gene

January 21, 2012 at 8:26 pm#273709

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,05:41)

Mike,
You never answered my question “why did Jesus make a big deal out of “see it's me, flesh and bones” (why was Jesus deceiving them)”.

That is my point exactly, Wm.

We all know that Jesus BECAME A SPIRIT – because scripture says so, right? (Well, all of us except for Gene agree on this. Gene won't accept the “spirit being” meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures, and so must change the text to say “Jesus had a life giving spirit put inside of him”. But I'm pretty sure the rest of us agree with the actual scripture, right?)

Now, had Jesus already been a spirit at the time he said the words in Luke 24:37, he WOULD HAVE BEEN deceiving his disciples. But instead, he said he was NOT (yet) a spirit, because spirits don't have flesh and bone.

There is all the proof you need, Wm. Jesus was most definitely NOT raised from the dead as a spirit being, or he would have been LYING to his disciples in 24:37, right?

Yet we know that he is NOW a spirit, because 1 Cor 15:45 tells us so. Also, as I mentioned to you on the other thread, you must forget the “blood” and “bone” parts of Luke 24:37 and 1 Cor 15:50, and focus only on the “FLESH” part.

FLESH, FLESH, FLESH, cannot inherit God's Kingdom.

So if Jesus WAS raised in a FLESH body, but is now a SPIRIT who has obviously inherited the Kingdom of God – something FLESH cannot do – then what are our options?

(Also, I feel your point about “inherit” is moot, because I think it's common knowledge from the context of 1 Cor 15 that Paul refers to “dwelling in heaven”, and simply words it as “inherting God's Kingdom”. He speaks of the Kingdom of God NOW – as it is, in heaven – and not of the future when the Kingdom of God will be on earth.)

peace,
mike

January 21, 2012 at 8:32 pm#273710