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Journey42………..I also believe that we now and in the future will all have “BODIES” but the difference between me a Tody seem to be about Angels He does have a valid point, the difference is I believe we are Just a “LITTLE” below the angel becasue we can experience Death while they can not it appears. Scripture say thou hast made him a LITTLE LOWER then the angels for the experiencing of Death. It does not say Man is greatly below the angels, but just a little below. Another point i have is that Jesus said we shall be as the Angels in the resurrection and He was also “LIKE” Then in His resurected Body and it was a Physical Body he had after his resurrection. ALL resurrection in Scripture contain a Physical Body. I believe Spirit are useless and Powerless outside of a Body the simple go about in ARID PLACES LOOKING FOR REST, The must be in a Body containing WATER, , Just as Thought are useless unless they are in a Body that they can animate so it is with Spirits. Yahweh Created a BODY and “THEN” added SPIRIT (INTO) IT, and THEN MAN became a LIVING SOUL, He was not a “LIVING SOUL “, UNTIL Spirit was (ADDED) into that body> as it is with all Life FORMS. Spirit is the LIFE of ALL BODIES without exception. GOD who is SPIRIT LIVES VICARIOUSLY (IN) HIS CREATION> Therefore He is the TREE (that which produces from it self) of LIFE, and if He is (IN) you YOU have eternal life becasue His Spirit can not die. It is not a case of those who have GOD Spirit (IN) them are going to GET eternal Life they already Have It,
Brethern Know you not that “NOW” we “ARE” the sons of the LIVING GOD”, why> Because GOD SEED abides (IN) YOU BY HIS SPIRIT He has given us.
Again Spirit can only influence thing that have water (IN) them, Therefore Jesus said we Must Be born “AGAIN” with “WATER and SPIRIT”, Why? “AGAIN”, because we have already been born the First time with WATER and SPIRIT but we Must Be BORN “AGAIN” NOT with SPIRIT ONLY but With WATER “AND” SPIRIT, why? becasue spirit can only animate a Physical life form. This is one reason why i believe Angels have bodies , and think that where is says “God created this Angels Spirits ” is referencing the Spirits that are (IN) those Beings. I could be wrong though just my point of view. There are other thing to consider also like could Adam and EVE LIVED for EVER IN there existing BODIES for instance, I believe they could Have, had they eaten of the Tree (that which produces from the self) of Life. I think that was a real possibility for them to have lived for ever in there existing bodies. IMO
Glad you are enjoying this thread Journey42, Toby is very Sharp on scripture and that is what i like about Him
peace and Love to you and yours …………………………..gene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 16 2012,10:36) Gene commits the Fallacy of Generalization. He thinks that just because the word 'spirit' may refer to “an aspect of being” that it must always have that reference.
I have been telling Gene this for over a year now. And everyone that ever posts on this thread says the same thing to him, over and over. But he will not budge.“Spirit” has many different meanings in scripture, and I'm trying to get Gene to see this, so I can then open his eyes about some other scriptures.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 16 2012,10:36) But the word 'spirit' may also refer to an incorporeal body or being.
Yep. Jesus is now a spirit being, and Jesus now has a “new, glorious body”.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 16 2012,02:03) This may of been quoted already but it is just so clear 1 Corinth 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of birds.
1 Corinth 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
This tells me that whether you are spirit, or flesh, you have a body.
That's also the way I understand it, Journey. In fact, I can't imagine how else to understand it.Mike………..Aren't you changing your position some what, Your belief is Jesus Is (A )”SPIRIT BODY” Like you think you are going to be. Now you say Jesus is NOW a SPIRIT BEING, “AND” Has a Glorious “BODY” Where did i ever say Jesus does not have a “BODY” . Thought you believed angels (ARE) Spirits and Spirits do not have bodies. Thought you have said Jesus shed his body when he went to heaven. No Spirit BODIES exist no Matter what you or anyone else thinks. Well at least you are covering yourself by saying “AND” NOW Jesus has a New Glorified BODY. Problem is you “were saying” that the Spirit (IS) a BODY earlier, now you seem to be changing you views, well that is good Start at least. IMO
peace and love………………………..Gene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 17 2012,03:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2012,03:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 15 2012,10:05) Toby……….I think our biggest difference is i see Spirit as ASPECTS of a BEING, while you seem to see them as COMPLETE beings,
Actually Gene,You see spirits as “complete beings” in the form of angels. You just won't accept the scriptures that say angels ARE spirits.
The Israelites were stubborn humans.
Angels are ministering spirits.
Gene, how is it that you can read my first sentence above, and know I mean “human BEINGS” (even though I only said “humans”); but you can't read the second sentence and know Paul meant “spirit BEINGS”?
This is quite a conundrum within your brain, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you are so stubborn about it. It seems you won't be satisfied until everyone on this site thinks you have a learning disability.
I await your DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37.
Gene commits the Fallacy of Generalization. He thinks that just because the word 'spirit' may refer to “an aspect of being” that it must always have that reference.John said that God has not given us the 'spirit' of fear. In this case the word 'spirit' must refer to a fearful disposition. “God has not given us a disposition toward fear.”
But the word 'spirit' may also refer to an incorporeal body or being.
KJ
KJ………… Scripture says God has not given us a Spirit of FEAR, Not a Disposition Toward Fear. You are changing scripture to meet your own reasonings. A Spirit is not a disposition towards anything, it is a “Cognate thought” or INTELLECT , that is (IN) the MIND of a Person , Dispositions have nothing to do with it> That is just another confusion brought on by human Logic from pagan religious thinking, giving alternate meanings to the word Spirit so no wonder Mike agrees with you he has many others means of Spirits also. He just can't list them Scripturally I don't think you can either Brother.Please show us by Scripture where Spirit is a “INCORPOREAL BODY” or a BEING, itself . Show Scripture JK about you (INCORPOREAL BODY) thing Please, Maybe Mike can help you and then POST IT.
KJ Have you heard from WJ lately, How is he doing hope everything is alright with Him.
peace and love to you and yours KJ……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2012,17:52) Mike………..Aren't you changing your position some what, Your belief is Jesus Is (A )”SPIRIT BODY” Like you think you are going to be. Now you say Jesus is NOW a SPIRIT BEING, “AND” Has a Glorious “BODY” Where did i ever say Jesus does not have a “BODY” . Thought you believed angels (ARE) Spirits and Spirits do not have bodies. Thought you have said Jesus shed his body when he went to heaven. No Spirit BODIES exist no Matter what you or anyone else thinks. Well at least you are covering yourself by saying “AND” NOW Jesus has a New Glorified BODY. Problem is you “were saying” that the Spirit (IS) a BODY earlier, now you seem to be changing you views, well that is good Start at least. IMO peace and love………………………..Gene
Gene,You need to read a little more carefully what I actually say.
Since I started this thread a long time ago, I have never claimed that spirits ARE bodies. That is something YOU always post and attribute to me, but I have never thought it nor said it.
Nor have I ever said that Jesus “shed his body”. Others have said this, and I have pointed out how that would make no sense in light of Phil 3:20-21.
What I HAVE said is that by “spirits” in the title of this thread, I meant “spirit BEINGS” such as angels, Jesus, and God.
And yes, I think that spirit beings HAVE bodies, not that they ARE bodies.
You think the same, because you think Jesus and the other angels have bodies. Our difference is that you don't recognize that Jesus and the angels are SPIRITS, meaning “spirit BEINGS”.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2012,18:11) Please show us by Scripture where Spirit is a………….BEING, itself . Show Scripture JK about you (INCORPOREAL BODY) thing Please, Maybe Mike can help you and then POST IT.
You're kidding, right?I've been asking and asking about Luke 24:37, Gene.
In that scripture, the word used is “spirit”, and the DEFINITION of “spirit” in that verse is “spirit BEING”.
And now you're asking for a scripture?
MIke…… NO your not getting off that easily, You said they “thought” the (SAW) a Spirit BEING. so tell us how does anyone (SEE) a Spirit “BEING” Mike. My stand was they did not (SEE) a SPIRIT BEING becasue Spirit can not be SEEN> There is NO DEFINITION of a SPIRIT “BEING” in SCRIPTURE, and if you look up the definition of “BEING” YOU will see it is never a SPIRIT ever. Now that is not to say Spirit in the sense of Being as (EXISTING) in that sense is true but only in that sense but not as a BEING in true sense of the Word according to the Dictionary what i have read. Perhaps you have a different dictionary from the Word BEING.
peace and love…………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 17 2012,17:52) Mike………..Aren't you changing your position some what, Your belief is Jesus Is (A )”SPIRIT BODY” Like you think you are going to be. Now you say Jesus is NOW a SPIRIT BEING, “AND” Has a Glorious “BODY” Where did i ever say Jesus does not have a “BODY” . Thought you believed angels (ARE) Spirits and Spirits do not have bodies. Thought you have said Jesus shed his body when he went to heaven. No Spirit BODIES exist no Matter what you or anyone else thinks. Well at least you are covering yourself by saying “AND” NOW Jesus has a New Glorified BODY. Problem is you “were saying” that the Spirit (IS) a BODY earlier, now you seem to be changing you views, well that is good Start at least. IMO peace and love………………………..Gene
GeneIs,,has,is,,has.has,has,has, not is ,not is, has has,has, not is,not is
Pierre
Mike………….WE are beings that have Spirits also so are we not then “SPIRIT BEINGS” also? Why do you say Just Angels and GOD and Jesus are Spirit “Beings” then. Fact is Mike you are making a difference between them by saying they are Spirit “BEINGS” while we are NOT. And if you were truly honest about this you would admit there is no Words SPIRIT “BEING” mention in Luke at all, not to mention their “THOUGHTS” were not real because Jesus said they were wrong.
Again Spirits are not bodies of any kind, they are what is (IN) BODIES, of all kinds. Spirits are the life of those Bodies they are in they make up the thinking of those bodies they are in, there minds. They are expressed by WORD, as Jesus said they were, The words i am telling you (ARE) Spirit and they (ARE) Life. Now tell us are words “beings” Mike? after all Jesus said they, (WORDS) “ARE” (SPIRIT) if you say no then neither are there Spirits “BEINGS”. if you say yes then what i am writing you here “WORDS” are “BEINGS” also. Right?
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2012,19:03) MIke…… NO your not getting off that easily, You said they “thought” the (SAW) a Spirit BEING. so tell us how does anyone (SEE) a Spirit “BEING” Mike.
Mark 9:2 NETBible
Six days later 1 Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John and led them alone up a high mountain privately. And he was transfigured before them, 2Footnote #2 says:
In 1st century Judaism and in the NT, there was the belief that the righteous get new, glorified bodies in order to enter heaven (1 Cor 15:42-49; 2 Cor 5:1-10). This transformation means the righteous will share the glory of God. One recalls the way Moses shared the Lord’s glory after his visit to the mountain in Exod 34. So the disciples saw Jesus transfigured, and they were getting a sneak preview of the great glory that Jesus would have…………..But you already believe that the heavenly have bodies, so my point in quoting this scripture to you is to ask:
Gene, were Moses and Elijah spirit beings, or human beings at this time?
And when Jesus was transfigured and glowing brighter than the sun, was it his flesh body glowing, or were the disciples getting a sneak peek at Jesus' new, glorious heavenly body, like the NETNotes scholars think?
For Toby:
2 Corinthians 5
1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.This passage refers to the “new, glorious body” Paul mentions in Phil 3:20-21 – the body like Jesus' new spiritual body, which Paul is anxious to receive.
From the scholar Barnes:
Rosenmuller renders it, “For in the other life we shall not be wholly destitute of a body, but we shall have a body.”The meaning is probably this:
(1) The word “clothed” refers to the future spiritual body of believers; the eternal habitation in which they shall reside.
(2) the expression implies an earnest desire of Paul to be thus invested with that body.
(4) it means that in that future state, the soul will not be naked; that is, destitute of any body, or covering. The present body will be laid aside.
But we are not thence to infer that it will be destitute of a body; that it will remain a naked soul. It will be clothed there in its appropriate glorified body; and will have an appropriate habitation there.
This is also how I understand it, and it is supported by 1 Cor 15 and Phil 3.
From People's New Testament:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. This shall come to pass, provided the spirit is clothed with a spiritual body at the resurrection, and not disembodied or naked. This is an allusion to the errors so prevalent at Corinth which he had combated in 1 Corinthians 15. See PNT 1Co 15:1. It was a Greek theory that when the spirit left the mortal body that it remained without a body, but Paul says: If we too, clothed upon, shall not be without an immortal body.I believe the underlined part above is what you also believe, Toby. But Paul teaches us differently.
Food for thought.
Thanks Shimmer.
Hi Journey and Mikeboll.
Please can you expand on the verses that you quote in your claim. Namely:
1 Corinth 15:39-40: All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds; and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly; one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.'
Please show me where there is any mention of Spirit in either of those verses. Are you perhaps thinking that the word 'Celestial' means 'Angels'? If so, then please show me where you obtain the meaning and definition from?
This will be interesting as to how you are thinking.
Also, please can you tell me what Paul says a 'Celestial Body' is, and what he says a 'Terrestrial Body' is?”
Thank you Journey and Mikeboll.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 17 2012,13:32) Mikeboll. Please can you expand on the verses that you quote in your claim. Namely:
1 Corinth 15:39-40: All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds; and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly; one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.'
Please show me where there is any mention of Spirit in either of those verses.
That Paul is talking about the bodies of the spirit beings of heaven is made clear starting in verse 44.44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
Toby, please read this following part carefully, as I seem to be experiencing deja vu:
The teaching is that the bodies of all things in heaven are different than the bodies of things on earth. The sun, for example, has a different kind of spendor than a tree. The moon has a different glory than a butterfly. And human beings have a different kind of body than spirit beings.
First comes the earthly, fleshly, natural body we are all born with. Then later will come the spiritual body like those of heaven, including Jesus, all have.
That is the teaching, and it is supported by 2 Cor 5 and Phil 3. Don't forget which question Paul is answering in the first place. (1 Cor 15:35)
Hi Gene.
Much of what you are saying is very right. But not all.
I think you are right about some posters making up their own meaning of things (You yourself do that – but at least you explain so others can see). And that you are agreeable to modify OPENLY your claims – even to adding 'In my opinion' or 'To my mind'. (I should learn from that!) That is good – it means you are not locking yourself in to a fixed philosophy. It's called 'Being open minded'. However, for whatever reason you do it, I still think that you are reading 'God makes His Angels Spirits' wrong.
Is it a language translation problem: To make it mean what you are thinking the text would have to read “God made his Angels' Spirits” or “God made the Spirits of/for his Angels”
Gene, note the positioning of the Apostrophes('). They are in a possesive position. Also, you would have to change 'Makes' into 'Made'. See Gene, God is not continuing to Make his Angels' Spirits (Spirits for his Angels), is he? All the Spirits Messengers (Angels) we're made at one time – before time.
However, the Scripture text does not read 'Made' – it reads 'Makes' – this means a continuing process. Therefore, God 'continues to make' (Makes) Spirits as his/to be his Messengers (Angels). Gene, 'Angel' just means 'Messenger': 'God makes (Those who are his Messengers) (To be Spirits).
Try these:
'The bear makes its home caves'
'The alcoholic man makes his poison Meths'
'The lion makes his prey Buffalo'
'The God makes his Messengers Angels'What do these mean?
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 12 2012,22:53) Toby. A very genuine question.and a good one,for I did have that same question for a long time,but I can understand it clearly now.
You are usinng your mind indeed.
Everything was made by the word of God,we know this.
And the word was MADE FLESH.Who made this word flesh?
Gods word. And how did he make his word flesh? By commanding the womb to conceive. Now a man was born,like you and me.In this man dwelleth the fullness of God himself, he is perfect,with no sin,and God speaks through him.
he said; I myself can not do ANYTHING,but what the father speak that I say; what he tells me to do that I do.So what Jesus say; is God saying it.God speaking.
This man, has an identity,a citizen of israel.He worked as a carpenter, then he started to do the work of his father,preaching the gospel.The truth about Gods will.He was hated,because he speaks the truth,and the truth is against their doings. bacause they love darkness.
This man end up cricified,then on the third day his body was changed in a twinkling of an eye.Like some of us will be, in the resurection.This man is changed and given a glorified body,and sitting next to his God.
He was given all authority; he does not have to ask his God anymore,because God trust him fully.
And God told all the angels to worship him,and God made him God; because now all creatures in heaven and in earth worship him.Gods word is still in God, God speaks to him,God speaks to the angels.
Even now, and then;when Jesus speaks he speaks Gods word.
His new name is THE WORD OF GOD.REV.19:13.The angels also have a glorified body,they were created that way. and they can materialise and dematerialise.But not without permission.
We also can do that, once we are changed.God himself did materialise before moses,but moses could not see his face.
God is a spirit and his children also will be spirit; with a glorified body.Body=body.
At the moment we also have a body;but made of the dust.
The angels are not made of dust,but of a finer substance.(spirit)In John3:8.Jesus compared the spirit body as the wind.
In the days of Abraham;The word of God was translated into flesh,a man named MECHISEDEK,Just like that,now you see now you dont.What was this man Jesus reward?
All the angels must worship him as God. And all men to worship him as God; He has all the authority now;he is in Charge, but he is a humble man,he still worship God as his God.
We are all the sons of God,because God created us;and the angels.But Jesus was born by the will of God,; we are born by the will of men. therefore he is the only begotten son.I hope I have made it clearer to you.
peace .
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup. I said I would get back to you.You outlined Jesus' changing from a dead state to a live state in the twinkling of an eye. Then you skipped Forty Days while he was on earth ascending to Heaven. It sounded like Jesus just rose from the tomb and went straight to Heaven. But what about the forty days – forty days where Jesus was seen and touched in his 'Flesh and Bone Body' before he ascended as a Spirit into Heaven. His 'Flesh and Bone Body' could not have entered Heaven. Heaven is a 'Spirit' realm.
You cannot say that Jesus' body was a Spirit Body, since Jesus himself expressly told the Disciples that he was 'not a Spirit' and PROVED IT to them, not only by getting them to touch him (Why did he prove himself this way?) but also he asked for Food to eat as he was Hungry – Who ever heard of a 'Hungry' Spirit Being?
If you agree that Jesus was in a Flesh and Bone body, then you cannot also say that he entered Heaven in that same body. Only his Spirit can enter Heaven. Therefore it must have been shed as he ascended upward (through the cloud) and out of sight of the Disciples.
Now you see that some others agree with this, but are confused as to the mechanics. They say that Jesus 'Changed' just before he ascended into Heaven. But then claim that he was in the same Glorified body, and entered Heaven as a Spirit Body. They can't have it both ways.
Moreover, since they state that Angels have 'Glorified Bodies' – 'like those of Heaven' (Angels), then what did Jesus achieve by gaining a 'Glorified Body' – 'like those of Heaven'? Nothing. Since his Spirit had already been in Heaven resting with God while he was dead in the tomb.
Someone please explain to me how these things become so confusing?
Thank you.Quote (toby @ Jan. 17 2012,15:06) If you agree that Jesus was in a Flesh and Bone body, then you cannot also say that he entered Heaven in that same body. Only his Spirit can enter Heaven. Therefore it must have been shed as he ascended upward (through the cloud) and out of sight of the Disciples.
Or transformed in the twinkling of an eye. (Phil 3:21)Hi Mikeboll.
I believe that the verses you quote, are actually speaking against your theory.
If the Soul is to be clothed in the new glorious body, then what is it presently clothed in – Mortal Flesh, maybe?
So what is the new 'clothes' – Immortal Flesh, maybe?How do you say that I am right, that at death the Spirit leaves the body – if both Jesus, and Steven, state at the point of their death: 'Into thy hands I commit my spirit'. Not to mention scripture verses that state that 'The body returns to the dust and the Spirit returns to God who gave it'.
Mikeboll, I feel like you are picking and choosing which Scripture verses to believe.
What your verses say is that the Spirit will be clothed in a new body… And will not be naked… What is the 'naked Spirit' but one that is 'Incorporeal' (by the way, there is no such thing as an 'Incorporeal Body!!)
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