Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 11 2012,14:28)

Quote (toby @ Jan. 10 2012,21:53)

Gene,

Can you understand this: Energy acts in and on Mass (a Body/Material/matter).
Can you understand this: Spirit acts in and on a Body (Matter/Material/Mass).
Without Energy the mass is inert.
Without Spirit the Body is Dead.
But can Energy be active Without a mass to act in and on?
Can the Spirit be active without a Body to act in and on?”

Toby.

The angels are spirit,and they have a body; a glorified body.
Jesus was given a glorified body,and we will also be given a glorified body.(born again,not born of the flesh; but born of the spirit;born of zion.)resurrected.
At the moment we are begotten of God,if we are true.
Our minds have been renewed,not our body.That is coming.

wakeup.

Hi Wakeup.

Nice to see another poster in this thread.
However, I don't understand your stance on the matter.

A Spirit is from Heaven, and a Spirit, you say, has a body.
Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit and, you say, he has a body because a Spirit has a body.
So then the body that Jesus has is no different to that of the Angel Spirits?

So then what did Jesus achieve by suffering and dying an excruciating death for the whole of humanity, if the outcome was that he only became like the Angels (in Heaven)? Further more, wasn't Jesus' Spirit already in Heaven after he died on the Cross. So what was the Glorious Body that was Raised Up at Jesus' resurrection?

Since the 'Spirit' is Undying and was with God anyway, what was it that was 'Raised up in incorruption' at Jesus' resurrection?
Since the Spirit of Jesus was not 'Sown in corruption', only his 'Flesh and Bone Body'… what was 'Raised Up' from being 'Sown'?
Are you saying that the Flesh Body of Christ was raised up 'Immortal'; and then the Spirit of Jesus was put into that 'Immortal Body'?

If the Spirit already has a Body, and Angels were seen on Earth in that 'Body' then Jesus as a Spirit resting with God when he died then also had a Body – so what need was there for a second Body (Raised up) for Jesus.

If you are going to say that Jesus' flesh body was not raised up then what happened to his body?
Were the soldiers right then that the Disciples stole it?

But then, Jesus must have been lying when he told the Disciples, “Do not be afraid, it is I, Jesus. I am NOT A SPIRIT. A Spirit does not have a BODY and you can plainly see that I have a Body. Come, touch and feel me, and see the holes in my hands and feet made by the nails and the wound in my side made by the spear'.

January 11, 2012 at 11:57 pm#271803

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Jan. 11 2012,16:51)

But then, Jesus must have been lying when he told the Disciples, “Do not be afraid, it is I, Jesus. I am NOT A SPIRIT. A Spirit does not have a BODY and you can plainly see that I have a Body. Come, touch and feel me, and see the holes in my hands and feet made by the nails and the wound in my side made by the spear'.

What Bible translation are you quoting here?

I ask, because Jesus says no such thing.

January 12, 2012 at 12:05 am#271805

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 11 2012,11:30)

Mike Start listing to me and Toby and some of the others here and you might learn something about Spirit brother.

Gene,

Why don't YOU start listening to Toby? Here are his words from page 428: “But, on a simple matter – Spirit, in context of Luke's verse, does mean 'Spirit Being'. I would have thought that was obvious. Now you see where Gene is wrong, you are right…….”

January 12, 2012 at 1:24 am#271839

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 12 2012,04:12)

Toby……….Let take it on step at a time, You may have misunderstood me about me saying spirits is not in a Body, in fact i believe they certainly are in Bodies in fact all life Forms have spirit (IN) them or they simply have no life at all. I think where we may differ is you seem to think spirits in ability, you said demon spirit could never take control of a person, but only act on his eternal spirits, that is yes and yes, yes it can act on internal Spirits, and Yes it can take complete control of a man , or animal . When they entered the pigs what did the pigs do they ran into the sea a drowned. There are many scriptures that show them taking complete control of a person, throwing them into fires, and what of the EVIL SPIRIT God sent to Saul it took control of his thinking. Right brother. Remember also Toby, where Jesus said the last state of that man was worse then the first so they can take over a person life completely.

I do not believe Spirits act differently at all they simply are what they are, Spirit is simply Spiirt, different “TYPES” or “KINDS” true, But non the less Just SPIRITS. Spirit just don't come and take us over No we INVITE them IN by opening up our minds to them , “so and man thinks so he (IS”. And again for the Spirit earnestly DESIRES US, yes GOOD and EVIL Spirit earnestly desire Us, its just a matter of us opening the Door or out Minds and Letting them IN. Even the Spirit of Jesus and GOD it say are Knocking at the Door and the Spirit earnestly Desires Us it says. If we open up to them they will come in and Sup with us it says.

WE have been given capacity to except or reject Spirits both good and evil one and even Adversarial (Ha-Satan) spirits also. So if we sow to the Spirit of Life we will reap life, if we sow to the Spirit of the World we will reap death, For all that is (IN) the world , The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of Life are (FROM) the WORLD, This is the Spirits that come from the world.

When a unclean Spirit leaves a Man he can clean up his mind, but if he does not replace that clean mind with clean Spirits and fill his House with them he is upon to more unclean spirits to come in because what was there will invite more of there kind and he will become worse at the end then when he began .

Toby………I see Spirit as (INTELLECT) the imputes Cognate Thought, to a person, they are useless unless they are in a power source of some kind. The description of them as going around in “ARID” looking for “REST” Place is significant to me. Lets examine Thought (which is Spirit ) to me, There is not new though in existence, we simply acquire what always existed into or selves , and while it may be new to Us it (itself) was never New it always existed sense GOD created it , Yes both GOOD and EVIL always existed sense it creation. And i mean (ALL) Good and (ALL) Evil has existed from the very beginning we just acquire them to ourselves by letting them IN our minds. And what we let (IN) controls us either Good or Evil. There is NO mystery about it we will all do what is (IN) us . If it is words we speak it comes form the heart or mind of us, it is what we are and these Spirit can be transmitted over the air (sound ways) to others and can go into them also from one person to another, Yes even the GOSPEL< it is Just Spirit being Transmitted, Therefore we must "try the "SPIRITS" to see if they are of GOD" . Spirit is Spirit there is just different KINDS and TYPES , and no two are the (EXACT SAME) like Snow Flakes all different, but still Snow Flakes.

Spirit (thought) is useless outside of a BODY (IT) is not a HE or SHE but an (IT) Spirit must be in a power force or it can have no effect on anything.. When Jesus was explaining the unclean Spirit to them he used expression they could understand and relate with, he personified Spirit like a Man walking around going in and out of a house, As men Do Satan as a individual Being going around taking over people at will , or as the do Wisdom as a SHE, this is all meromorphic language used to illustrate something but can not be taken literally. This is how i understand Spirit Toby. I still believe we are in agreement on most of what a Spirit IS> IMO, At least you and i both agree it is not a BODY of any kind (IT) is what is (IN) a BODY, and exists outside a body also by the way. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………………gene

Hi Gene.

I hear you loud and clear about Spirit BEING in a body!!!

I acknowledge that you say that.
But my (your) example shows that you are only referring to Demon Spirits.
The text exactly states this: 'When a Demon Spirit leaves…'
I had even seperately stated this too – I did not read it first.
I was checking on the verse, and it jumped at me – that you had left out the very explicit reference to the fact of Demon Spirit.

I don't believe that a demon spirit can completely take over a person. This cannot be true. The resident spirit of the being is always capable of resisting the Spirit – this is exactly what Jesus demonstrated by being tested in the Wilderness. Jesus was subjected to the harshest test ever – and showed that the Spirit of Man CAN resist the greatest Demonic force of all – a direct assault to Satan himself.

Gene, no man is ever subjected to anything more than he can resist – this is stated in Scriptures:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Else what point is the test. If you break the tested item, what value is if afterwards? But you can be tested UP TO the breaking limit. Jesus showed what the breaking limit of a human spirit was, and walked away intact. No one can ever be tested greater than that of Jesus – nor ever will (without destroying that Spirit – and what would be the point thereafter?) I think what you are trying to say is that sin caused the human spirit to be less able to resist the Demon Spirit. But with what power is left, if the human Spirit reaches out to God through Jesus, shows faith, then the Holy Spirit will be sent to support the Spirit of that man.

So, Gene, if we now exactly know that it is the Demon Spirit that goes about in Arid places – what of the non Demon Spirit?
Further more, Scriptures say:

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

And these are just the Spirit of Mankind.

Gene, I asked you what an Angel is in your opinion?
What is the difference between an Angel and a Spirit?

Here is a hint: Angel is just a word meaning Messenger.
The word 'Angel' has become synonymous with the Messengering Spirits of God.
It's easier to say – 'Angel' than 'Messengering Spirit of God' just as it is easier to say 'Postie' rather than 'Postal Delivery Agent'.
'God makes his Angels Spirits' therefore this Means exactly what it says.
This has Absolutely nothing to do with Bodies of Angels.

Other than these things (so far) Gene, I agree with all else you said.
I was
pleased to hear you say them – so we have much common ground.
Gene, let's close up the gap of misunderstanding in regard to the topic of this thread and each other as we walk along the road of potential truth.

Gene, have you seen how far we two have moved ahead since we stepped over struggling with the definition of 'Being'?

January 12, 2012 at 2:30 am#271875

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 10 2012,21:28)

Toby.

The angels are spirit,and they have a body; a glorified body.
Jesus was given a glorified body,and we will also be given a glorified body………..

Right on, Wakeup.

January 12, 2012 at 2:52 am#271887

Participant

Gene, which one of the definitions (from the dictionaries), do you suppose state that a Spirit has a Body?
From what I see NONE, not a single one.
In fact, they patently state, that Spirit does not have a body – by virtue of being 'Incorporeal' and 'As opposed to Matter'.
No matter how it is stated, nothing – in Science nor Religion – ever makes reference to 'Spirit Body' or 'Body of a Spirit'.

You are quite right to demand an adequate answer from anyone who assumes so – and show proof of such.
References to Symbolisms – do not count as proof!
Nor does changing the meaning of words, to make them seem to mean 'what the poster wants to make you believe' it means.
For example: 'SpiritUAL Body' is not the same as 'Spirit Body'.

'Present in Spirit but Absent in Body'.
What a wonderful example of the 'Bodiless' presence.
Gene, I am with you in Spirit, although my Body is elsewhere.
In fact, my Spirit can be 'many places at one time' but my Body is in 'one place only'.
How can it be – that my Spirit can 'immediately' be with you – in the blinking of an eye – and yet: also with others- thousands of miles elsewhere – at the same time.

Gene, I support your view of the 'Bodiless', Incorporeal (Demon) Spirit (In the material world).
But you need to get up to speed on the Immaterial world of 'Heaven'.
Dwelling on the word 'Being' is getting nowhere.
And now that I understand where your thinking is, I can leave off that point.

Maybe other posters do not have much else to condemn (in what you say) and are reluctant to accept your view (Even if incorrect) and move on with the topic.

January 12, 2012 at 12:53 pm#271948

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (toby @ Jan. 12 2012,09:51)

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 11 2012,14:28)

Quote (toby @ Jan. 10 2012,21:53)

Gene,

Toby.

wakeup.

Hi Wakeup.

Nice to see another poster in this thread.
However, I don't understand your stance on the matter.

If you are going to say that Jesus' flesh body was not raised up then what happened to his body?
Were the soldiers right then that the Disciples stole it?

Toby.

A very genuine question.and a good one,for I did have that same question for a long time,but I can understand it clearly now.

You are usinng your mind indeed.
Everything was made by the word of God,we know this.
And the word was MADE FLESH.Who made this word flesh?
Gods word. And how did he make his word flesh? By commanding the womb to conceive. Now a man was born,like you and me.

In this man dwelleth the fullness of God himself, he is perfect,with no sin,and God speaks through him.
he said; I myself can not do ANYTHING,but what the father speak that I say; what he tells me to do that I do.

So what Jesus say; is God saying it.God speaking.
This man, has an identity,a citizen of israel.He worked as a carpenter, then he started to do the work of his father,preaching the gospel.The truth about Gods will.

He was hated,because he speaks the truth,and the truth is against their doings. bacause they love darkness.

This man end up cricified,then on the third day his body was changed in a twinkling of an eye.Like some of us will be, in the resurection.This man is changed and given a glorified body,and sitting next to his God.

He was given all authority; he does not have to ask his God anymore,because God trust him fully.
And God told all the angels to worship him,and God made him God; because now all creatures in heaven and in earth worship him.

Gods word is still in God, God speaks to him,God speaks to the angels.
Even now, and then;when Jesus speaks he speaks Gods word.
His new name is THE WORD OF GOD.REV.19:13.

The angels also have a glorified body,they were created that way. and they can materialise and dematerialise.But not without permission.
We also can do that, once we are changed.

God himself did materialise before moses,but moses could not see his face.
God is a spirit and his children also will be spirit; with a glorified body.Body=body.
At the moment we also have a body;but made of the dust.
The angels are not made of dust,but of a finer substance.(spirit)

In John3:8.Jesus compared the spirit body as the wind.
In the days of Abraham;The word of God was translated into flesh,a man named MECHISEDEK,Just like that,now you see now you dont.

What was this man Jesus reward?
All the angels must worship him as God. And all men to worship him as God; He has all the authority now;he is in Charge, but he is a humble man,he still worship God as his God.
We are all the sons of God,because God created us;and the angels.But Jesus was born by the will of God,; we are born by the will of men. therefore he is the only begotten son.

I hope I have made it clearer to you.

peace .

wakeup.

January 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm#271950

Participant

wakeup

Quote

Gods word is still in God, God speaks to him,God speaks to the angels.

this is not clear to me ,could you explain

Pierre

January 12, 2012 at 2:43 pm#271955

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 12 2012,23:16)

wakeup

Quote

Gods word is still in God, God speaks to him,God speaks to the angels.

this is not clear to me ,could you explain

Pierre

Pierre could you do it this time?

January 12, 2012 at 4:01 pm#271958

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (toby @ Jan. 12 2012,12:52)

Maybe other posters do not have much else to condemn (in what you say) and are reluctant to accept your view (Even if incorrect) and move on with the topic.

Toby………..I do now see what you mean by Spirits (BEINGS) we can say Spirits are beings in the context they do (EXIST). To me spirit is a lot like AIR, we need it to live, but we must draw it into us in order for (IT) to be part of us, so is it with Spirits it is all around us all, but we must open the door of our minds and let them in, and Just as air we breathe give our body oxygen to live , so Spirit give us (intellect) or (cognate thought), and animates us.

Paul clearly said let this MIND be in you, he did not say let this SPIRIT “BODY” be in you that was (IN) Christ Jesus did he? I am glad we both agree that spirit is NOT a BODY of ANY KIND but is what is (IN) Bodies.

Mike is completely wrong in his “Many” Meanings of the word Spirit IMO. This is one of the main confusion of Religion today. His thinking that Spiritual BODY means a SPIRIT BODY is completely wrong.

Spirit to me in its “SIMPLEST DEFINITION” is Simply (INTELLECT) and (IT) is in all life forms to one degree or another. It comes in all TYPES and KINDS. They produce different effect in our Minds and consequently in our word and actions. They are what LIFE (IS). Therefore Jesus said the words i am speaking to you (ARE) Spirit (AND) (ARE) LIFE. Yes all Spirit (ARE) Life, that a person is speaking and living. IMO

Peace and Love to you and yours Toby…………………………..gene

January 12, 2012 at 10:59 pm#272012

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 13 2012,02:01)

Peace and Love to you and yours Toby…………………………..gene

Hi Gene. Please can you tell me what your opinion is about Angels, in context of Spirit. What to you is an Angel?

Who or what is Archangel Michael, and Gabriel, who states that he 'stands in the presence of God, and who or what are the Angels who are told to worship Jesus, after Jesus was raised from the dead? (Wakeup states incorrectly that mankind is told to worship Jesus. There is no such request or command: Worship God alone!). Gene, who or what are the Angels who were seen in the Tomb by Mary and Peter, and the Angels sent to the Shepherd on the hillside, and all the other reports…? Gene, all I'm trying to do is to feel out why you are avoiding the question of 'What an Angel is in context of a Spirit?'

It is relevant, because an Angel is just a MESSENGING Spirit from God. They do not have a body in Heaven, but materialise one in the form of Man to communicate with man. The Spirit could materialise ANY FORM required to deliver the message that God sent to it to deliver. But why does it choose to be seen Like a Son of Man. Remember that Moses saw a Spirit In the Form of a fire burning in a bush (Yet the bush was not consumed!).

By the way, I agree with some of the things you said in your last post. I'm a little busy at the moment, so I'll get to the details later.

January 12, 2012 at 11:01 pm#272013

Participant

Hi Wakeup. Thank you for your reply, I will get to that when I can.

January 12, 2012 at 11:21 pm#272015

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 12 2012,09:01)

Mike is completely wrong in his “Many” Meanings of the word Spirit IMO.

Hi Gene,

For over two months now, I've been giving you the perfect scenario to show everyone how I'm wrong. All you have to do is answer the following simple question:

Luke 24:37
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a spirit.

Gene, could you tell us what the bolded, supersized word above MEANS in this scripture? Can you give us the DEFINITION of that word?

Let me remind you what Toby said, in case that helps you:
“But, on a simple matter – Spirit, in context of Luke's verse, does mean 'Spirit Being'. I would have thought that was obvious. Now you see where Gene is wrong, you are right…….”

Give it a shot, Gene. Answer my question and prove me and everyone else wrong.

January 13, 2012 at 4:20 pm#272134

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Toby………..You ask me about ANGELS as regards to Spirit, Well i believe Angels are Beings who have SPIRIT (IN) Them put there by GOD. God Created Angels , so they must be created beings. You are right about the word Messengers can mean Angles that is true. But do angles just materialize and then dematerialize , i would say No they do not no more that a man can, and has by the way in scripture disappeared from a person view. I am of the opinion that they “ANGLES who ARE MESSENGERS” of GOD Have Bodies and GOD can open our eyes and see them also at times, But GOD has limited our normal vision to certain ranges of the light spectrum , in fact it is a narrow range really with regards to the total range of light there are. Remember when Elijah asked GOD to open the lads eye to see that Israel had more on there side then there enemies did? Phillip Disappeared from the eunuchs eyes also and was swept away by the spirit. Jesus walked on Water and so did Peter, and even after the resurrection Jesus when he had his resurrected body went though doors and appeared and also disappeared, But, was he ever seen with out a body NO, but that never meant he could not disappear from our site though. I believe Angels do have Bodies of Some Kind and we will also be Like them according to Jesus' words in the future. Did he not say for we shall be as the angels of GOD and we would not be given nor taken in marriage.

What i am trying to do in this thread is to focus on Spirit itself, because i believe that is what trips a lot of People up, Like Mike for instance, and many others also, who think Spirits are complete Beings when they are NOT “COMPLETE BEINGS, There is no DEVIL “PERSON” going around jumping in and out of People There is only a Spirit (intellect) that induces “ADVERSARIAL THOUGHTS” or INTELLECTS in people, now that is not saying they are not “beings” in this (sense), that they do exit.

So i asked way back in another thread about Spirit, what is the simplest meaning of the WORD SPIRIT, and after considering all posts on it and my own thinking i came up with , Spirit in it “SIMPLEST” MEANING is INTELLECT. Spirits give us COGNATE THOUGHTS which makes up our INTELLECTS. A spirit by it self can do nothing it must be connect with something that has power or it is useless, (IT) is simply cognate thought . Nothing more can they do or nothing less , it is just that simple to me.

The disciples had Spirit when Jesus breath on the before the day of Pentecost, But what did Jesus say “go wait for the “POWER FROM ON HIGH” So POWER had to be granted along with the Spirits. Even Jesus is displayed in Revelation as a Slain Lamb, who has the SEVEN SPIRITS ( SPECIFIC INTELLECTS) of GOD , but notice the HORN also THAT Represents “POWER” So Power must be connect somehow with Spirit in order for an effect to be realized.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

January 13, 2012 at 6:06 pm#272140

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 13 2012,07:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 12 2012,23:16)

wakeup

Quote

Gods word is still in God, God speaks to him,God speaks to the angels.

this is not clear to me ,could you explain

Pierre

Pierre could you do it this time?

wakeup

those are your words not mine,

what you understand in those words of yours ,that is what i would like to know and how you came about to this way of thinking,

I do not understand this so how can I interpret those words ,

Pierre

January 14, 2012 at 12:18 am#272170

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Terricca……….What wakeup is saying is GOD “SPEAKS” ,so what does he SPEAK With, “WORDS” is the answer, So then GOD WORDS (ARE) with HIM> Hope that helped Pierre.

peace and love………………………………………………gene

January 14, 2012 at 12:43 am#272180

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2012,17:18)

Terricca……….What wakeup is saying is GOD “SPEAKS” ,so what does he SPEAK With, “WORDS” is the answer, So then GOD WORDS (ARE) with HIM> Hope that helped Pierre.

peace and love………………………………………………gene

gene -wakeup

so God is a spirit being full of words in side of him ?

were is that scripture??

Pierre

January 14, 2012 at 12:49 am#272184

Blocked

Gene,

Why are you avoiding my post? When will you simply answer the question? Just give us the DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37 and end this months long debate we've been having.

January 14, 2012 at 1:01 am#272186