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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 20 2011,11:55) Mike………..but Pierre keep yacking at me so his word does not have much credibility here as far as i am concerned. Mike do me a favor and sware off also OK. And don't try to drag Shimmer into this I believe she has a better understanding of Spirit, and it does not agree with yours either. IMO
Gene,Do you believe in spirit beings?
If you do then what kinds are there?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2011,09:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 19 2011,21:30) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2011,00:33) Mike, Am I correct that you do believe that Jesus did have a flesh and bone body when he stated those words?
Yes Kerwin.This is one of my beliefs I had to adjust since coming to HN. I used to think Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being, but Shimmer used this scripture to point out my flawed understanding. I have since adjusted my views to form around the scriptures, because scriptures are truth – no matter what my previous understanding was. Pierre likewise adjusted his belief on this matter for the same reason.
Mike,Gene seems not to understand that you believe that Jesus was making the case he was not a spirit being by pointing out he had flesh and bone.
He also seems to be influenced by this modern skeptical age and so is accustomed to believe that spiritual beings, such as phantasms are myths.
There are teachings in the modern church that in line with his beliefs, though they were alien to the mindset of the people of the First century as far as I know.
Perhaps you should find out if he believe there are such things as spiritual beings and if so then what kinds.
Kerwin,Gene believes that angels have bodies. He just doen't believe in anything called a “spirit being”. He does not believe that angels are “spirit beings”, nor that they are called “spirits”, even though Paul clearly says that all angels are ministering spirits.
Since in his mind, the word “spirit” ONLY means “the intellect inside someone”, he transforms Paul's words to say that angels HAVE ministering spirits inside of their bodies.
When Paul says the last Adam became a life giving spirit, Gene assumes it mean he had a life giving spirit PUT INSIDE OF HIM.
I'm trying desparately to get him to see the truth of the matter (that “spirit” has many different meanings – one of which is “spirit being”), but to no avail so far.
Kerwin………..Spirits are not beings themselves, they are what produces cognate thoughts in a Being, they can be both clean or unclean , they can be taken away or given and even replaced in a BEINGS. God makes His ANGEL”S spirits for them and then sends them out to minister. He does not make the Angel s spirit Beings, there exist no such thing as a “SPIRIT BEING”. IMO If there is then someone need to produce a scripture with the word “SPIRIT BEINGS” in it . This would be a good start, and i might reconsider my point of view.
Peace and love brother………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 20 2011,13:34) This would be a good start, and i might reconsider my point of view. 
Fat chance of that ever happening! Gene, your OWN words proved that “spirit” has more than one meaning in scripture, and you still won't acknowledge it.
Luke used the word “spirit”, YOU said that the word did NOT mean the disciples thought they were seeing an “intellect inside someone”, yet you won't admit that your own words PROVE there must be more than one meaning of “spirit”.
And now YOU run around calling US “idiots”? That's too rich, dude!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 21 2011,01:34) Kerwin………..Spirits are not beings themselves, they are what produces cognate thoughts in a Being, they can be both clean or unclean , they can be taken away or given and even replaced in a BEINGS. God makes His ANGEL”S spirits for them and then sends them out to minister. He does not make the Angel s spirit Beings, there exist no such thing as a “SPIRIT BEING”. IMO If there is then someone need to produce a scripture with the word “SPIRIT BEINGS” in it . This would be a good start, and i might reconsider my point of view. Peace and love brother………………………………………………………..gene
Gene,According to the reasoning you just used there is no such thing as a human being because scripture does not call them human beings.
Calling someone a human is the same thing as calling them a human being as they exist as a human.
In conclusion calling someone a spirit could mean they are a spirit being.
Are you perhaps influenced by one of the languages Wikipedia's entry for spirit testifies of which user a closely related to “mind”?
Quote Some languages use a word for “spirit” often closely related (if not synonymous) to “mind”. Examples include the German, Geist (related to the English word “ghost”) or the French, 'l'esprit'. Kerwin……..Spiirt is closely related with the Mind, becasue it gives the mind it Intellects, Mind is the thinking going on (IN) our physical brains . If spirit was to be removed from you body you simply would cease to know anything and would soon die. That also applies to all the animal kingdom on this earth, it is the spirit (IN) them that causes them to be animated. They are programed by these spirits to act theway they do, we are also like wise effect by spirits to think a certain way and as a result we act out our thinking derived from these spirits. Spirit never dies it abides forever it can be contained but never destoryed. It comes and can Go, but in order to effect something it mist be in it first. “if the spirit of him who raised Christ Jesus (FORM THE DEAD) dwell in you (IT) shall (ALSO) quicken (bring back to life) What? YOUR MORTAL “BODY” why should it quicken your mortal “BODIES” if we are to be a so_called “SPIRIT BEING”, Fact is there exist NO Spirit Beings, there exist Spirit (IN) Beings. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………………………………..gene
Kerwin……Spirits can better be considered different cognate thoughts we can all have many different spirit in us at all times these spirits drive our thoughts and give us our intellects in our minds. They can be taken our or added to us i.e God adds to us his HOLY Spirit of TRUTH, that is the Spirit that gives us cognate though of truths, It elevates our thinking to a higher Plane of reason, enabling us to discern or be cognate of the truth, it is one of the seven Spirits of GOD also that he shares with us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin………………………………………….gene
I don't think I ever had a straight answer from you Gene.
If we are a body and spirit, then when we get a new spirit and body, then surely we are replaced, not saved.
If we have a soul, then God can save the soul, while giving us a new body and a new spirit. But from what I can tell with your view, it makes no sense.
Exactly what part of us is saved when we are completely made new if we are not a soul?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2011,17:30) I don't think I ever had a straight answer from you Gene. If we are a body and spirit, then when we get a new spirit and body, then surely we are replaced, not saved.
If we have a soul, then God can save the soul, while giving us a new body and a new spirit. But from what I can tell with your view, it makes no sense.
Exactly what part of us is saved when we are completely made new if we are not a soul?
T8……..We don't have a soul we (ARE) a Living Soul, that is where you are mistaking, you believe we poses a soul , No we (ARE) a LIVING SOUL. Our very being (IS) a LIVING SOUL. The complete US IS A LIVING SOUL> and that complete LIVING SOUL has spirit (IN) it. It”s just that simple. The is no scripture that say a Man consists of a BODY, a SOUL, a SPIRIT, No you find that Man Has Is a LIVING SOUL that has Spirit IN HIM.The who idea of another separate existence outside of the body by some continual existence is nothing but Pagan false teachings that lends it self to Spooks, Ghosts and all kind of imagined thing that simply are not true.You said “if we are a body and spirit, then when we get a new spirit and body, then surely we are replaced not saved” . Tell me what is the difference if the way we are saved is that we are replaced it the Exact DNA replica and our Spirit is added back into it is used to recreate us that Exact same result will be there, and if you follow you logic we would be replaced anyway right “we are going to Be SPIRIT “BEINGS”, Right according to Mike and I suppose you to right?. That is being replaces T8 as a new or different being. right.
You ask what part of us is saved when we are completely made New if we are Not a Soul?……….Thats the point T8 we (ARE) A LIVING SOUL, that is the complete US. And our LIVING SOUL CONTAINS SPIRITS> (IN IT)>
Tell us T8, what does this mean to you, ” THAT WILL WITNESS THE REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES” , why should our “Bodies” be redeemed at all. Now tell us (EXACTLY) does that mean to you , please give me a straight answer OK> And while you are at it show us where there was a resurrection that did not contain a physical body that would also help your soul separate from a body thing.
And don't give me this “you never got a straight answer from Me thing” T8, that simple is not true.
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,08:53) Kerwin……..Spiirt is closely related with the Mind, becasue it gives the mind it Intellects, Mind is the thinking going on (IN) our physical brains . If spirit was to be removed from you body you simply would cease to know anything and would soon die. That also applies to all the animal kingdom on this earth, it is the spirit (IN) them that causes them to be animated. They are programed by these spirits to act theway they do, we are also like wise effect by spirits to think a certain way and as a result we act out our thinking derived from these spirits. Spirit never dies it abides forever it can be contained but never destoryed. It comes and can Go, but in order to effect something it mist be in it first. “if the spirit of him who raised Christ Jesus (FORM THE DEAD) dwell in you (IT) shall (ALSO) quicken (bring back to life) What? YOUR MORTAL “BODY” why should it quicken your mortal “BODIES” if we are to be a so_called “SPIRIT BEING”, Fact is there exist NO Spirit Beings, there exist Spirit (IN) Beings. IMO peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………………………………..gene
Gene,The Hebrew “leb” pronounced “labe” is the part of a being that you appear to be speaking of.
Quote Genesis 6:5 King James Version (KJV)
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It is in some instances a synonym of the Hebrew word for spirit but not in all instances.
If it was then every time the scripture used the Hebrew word for “heart” you could place the Hebrew word for “spirit” there instead.
The Greek synonym of “leb” is “kardioa” pronounced “cardia”.
Quote Matthew 9:4 King James Version (KJV)
4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
I cannot find where the English word “spirit” is ever linked to the English word “though” as it is the later is linked to “heart” in the two verses I quoted. Perhaps you can study the matter and find where the two are linked as you seem to claim.
I have found absolutely no support for your views in any teachings from beyond the fairly recent past and they seem in line with the teachings of this modern age of Skepticism.
Kerwin……….Yes i am skeptical of all teaching of “RELIGIONS” Because most are based on false Past associations of Pagan Origins and Living Souls after a person dies is just another of those false teachings. I have studied the word Soul and and applied it to scriptures and find it is most always dealing with the COMPLETE PERSON, Body + Spirit -a “LIVING SOUL” absolutely nothing complicated about it , to me it is just that simple Kerwin. I like will See Jesus and the Lord Yahweh in in my Flesh Just like Job said he would also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin………………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,21:08)
I have studied the word Soul and and applied it to scriptures and find it is most always dealing with the COMPLETE PERSON, Body + Spirit -a “LIVING SOUL”
MOST ALWAYS? Gene, what do you do about the scriptures where soul is distinguished as something OTHER THAN a body or spirit? Do you ignore those scriptures?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,21:08)
I like will See Jesus and the Lord Yahweh in in my Flesh Just like Job said he would also.
Now if only Job actually said such a thing, you'd have a leg to stand on. But he didn't.mike
Quote Now if only Job actually said such a thing, you'd have a leg to stand on. But he didn't. but he never did say that,only gene sees that
Well, to be fair, Gene is just going by the flawed KJV translation in this case.
Many more years of research have made it clear what Job was really saying.
Gene,
What came first, the true religion of God or the false?
I agree that mixing what is false with what is true is of the devil but you fail to understand that the teaching of the modern Skeptics are based on the principles of man and not of God.
Scripture is clear on the point that part of a human being survives the death of the body. Jesus taught that to the Sadducees. God is the God of the living and not of those who are dead or do not exist.
I see no point in discussing such things with those that appear to be unwilling to hear. I suggest you look beyond the biased that our modern Secularist culture indoctrinates us with and study the words for Hebrew words which definitely speak of the dead as having a semblance of life.
Kerwin……> why then a resurrection from the DEAD, if we still are alive, then we really aren't dead are we? if we still have conscientious thoughts. What do you do with this Kerwin,,
Psa 6:5 For in death there is NO Remembrance of you (GOD) in the grave, Who shall give you thanks.
Ecc (:10……> Whatsoever thy hand finds to do do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither you go.
John 11:25…….> Jesus said unto her, I am the resurection, and the life; he that believes in me, (now notice Kerwin) though he were (DEAD), yet Shall (future tense) He live.
So can we presume from this that we do indeed DIE and The we can Be brought back to life again? Just like Jesus was DEAD and was Brought Back to life again. No one is still alive when they are dead, the only thing that remains is their Sprint that goes back to the Father. Everything else parishes in the grave.
Eze 4 and 20……..Says the soul that sins (IT SHALL DIE) and as far as i am concerned when you die that is it , for ever unless the Lord reconstructs another body and adds Spirits of life back into it it (the soul) will remain dead for ever in the grave. Kerwin our souls are not still alive when we die, no scripture say that. All have sinned all are to Die and after that a resurection will take place. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 24 2011,14:08) I have studied the word Soul and and applied it to scriptures and find it is most always dealing with the COMPLETE PERSON, Body + Spirit -a “LIVING SOUL” absolutely nothing complicated about it , to me it is just that simple Kerwin. I like will See Jesus and the
Except the most known verses that use the word soul such as:1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Notice that the whole is body, soul, and spirit. Not body and spirit / or soul.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.See how body and soul are referred to as BOTH? But your view is that the soul on its own is referring to both body and spirit. Your view doesn't fit with the above verse also.
But let's go for a third witness scripture and if this scripture doesn't change your mind, then I can only conclude that your own understanding is above scripture to the point that scripture is wrong, or you are wrong. Guess which one most sane people would choose?
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.See that. Joints and marrow is likened to soul and spirit. The soul is part and not the whole as you say.
Gene, I have noticed that you seem to pretty much disagree with many scriptures on many topics. This is more than a trend Gene. I would be concerned if I were you. You seem to take the opposite tact on many things that are spelled out clearly in scripture. This shows rebellion.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2011,02:22) Gene, I have noticed that you seem to pretty much disagree with many scriptures on many topics. This is more than a trend Gene. I would be concerned if I were you. You seem to take the opposite tact on many things that are spelled out clearly in scripture. This shows rebellion.
Amen!Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 24 2011,21:37) Kerwin our souls are not still alive when we die, no scripture say that.
Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.Gene, all are alive to God, whether or not they are conscious. It is only after God judges and destroys the SOULS of the wicked that they will go off into everlasting destruction.
Right now, the BODIES have died and decayed, and the SPIRITS have gone back to Him who gave them, but the SOULS await their final judgement.
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