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All,
Please ignore everything I said here the past few day's.
I know what happened it was a trick.
I used to believe the word was Jesus and still do.
I just warn people do not be fooled, anger can cloud your judgment, and personal issues. If you have achieved closeness to God and feel anger toward another, the truth is not in you. As I have come to see myself.Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 30 2011,15:29) All, Please ignore everything I said here the past few day's.
I know what happened it was a trick.
I used to believe the word was Jesus and still do.
I just warn people do not be fooled, anger can cloud your judgment, and personal issues. If you have achieved closeness to God and feel anger toward another, the truth is not in you. As I have come to see myself.
Shimmer,Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in the human Jesus Christ as testified by the fact that God both speaks and acts through him?
Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in Jehovah the one true God as testified by the fact that God both speaks and acts according to his own Word?
Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in the Spirit God as testified by the fact that it both reveals God with both words and actions and carries out his word in other ways.
Note: I like your new avatar.
Hey Kerwin how are you.
I always had believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and in John 1:1 it is Yahshua the Messiah come to Earth from above. I never doubted that. I only doubt it when I look at the fruits of certain people, or see a negative reaction to something I say and I think 'aha, I must be on to something here! why such a vicious reaction'. Which is what triggered my thinking on the Holy Spirit/Word, I had been reading back on old topics. I saw a connection with the topic which was “What is the Holy Spirit'. This was over a year ago.
I study behaviour. Though mine is hardly the best! ahah.
Then I realised that Satan can use people to anger you, and upset you, and when you hear them going on about something you believe as a truth so much, it grates on your nerves. That's why I said, it's a trick. (Spiritual battles).
The best conversations I have had here, were with others, no matter what they believed, it was about spiritual things not doctrine.
I think half my problem is, I believe theres a carnel side to scripture and a spiritual. I prefer, example, to sit outside late afternoon/night looking at the sky, reflecting on the spiritual atmosphere. I don't believe in wordliness, though I like to give my view (alot!). Money doesn't interest me, material items, etc. This life is only short. We need to survive that's all. I don't accumulate possessions. Though love is nice.
So, I guess it reflects also in my view of scripture.
I believe that as we have a body, soul and spirit, so too does scripture.
None of this has anything really to do with what you asked, sorry for the tangent.
Hope you are well kerwin.
In answer to your questions:
Quote Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in the human Jesus Christ as testified by the fact that God both speaks and acts through him? Yes.
Quote Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in Jehovah the one true God as testified by the fact that God both speaks and acts according to his own Word? Yes.
Quote Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in the Spirit God as testified by the fact that it both reveals God with both words and actions and carries out his word in other ways. I think so. Don't quite understand the question though.
shimmer
this is a kerwin question;
Quote Do you believe that the Word of God is manifest in the Spirit God as testified by the fact that it both reveals God with both words and actions and carries out his word in other ways. this question is definitively not strait forward ; he ask ;if you believe that THE WORD OF GOD (John 1;1) is manifested in Gods spirit (but he does not know what is Gods spirit)what is true is that God for tells his will to be(send messengers,dreams to prophets) and in time fulfill it in actions,
but the words he send to the prophets HIS NOT “THE WORD OF GOD IN JOHN 1;1 THIS IS THE NAME OF CHRIST IN HEAVEN REV;19and other ways
?this is open to speculation
PierreShimmer,
Quote I always had believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and in John 1:1 it is Yahshua the Messiah come to Earth from above. I disagree with you on this point of the gospel of Christ which is what led to the three questions I asked you. I was asking if you believe that God, Jesus, and the Spirit of God are manifestations of the Word of God to demonstrate that each of those entities can be said to be The Word. John 1:1-2 teaches us that the Word was God and was with God in the beginning and that is true if you see the the Spirit of God and Jehovah are separate entities with each being the manifestation of the commands of God. In John 1:14 we are taught that the Word was made human and that is true if it is speaking of the time when the Word of God manifested in the flesh of the human being Jesus. So the preexistent command to love came from above to dwell in the body of Jesus and that point reveals that Jesus comes from God even as he has been testifying.
Quote The best conversations I have had here, were with others, no matter what they believed, it was about spiritual things not doctrine. Both doctrine and the way you live are important and so one should not be neglected in order to address the other. There will be confrontation on these issues as there is a battle between the Spirit and the world, even within our own breasts. It is confrontation we must suffer as part of seeking God and his kingdom as the prince of this world will not let us go easily nor suffer our opposition to him.
Quote I think half my problem is, I believe there is a carnal side to scripture and a spiritual. I believe you mean that to those who live by their carnal nature scripture become a stumbling block that they misinterpret to their own damnation; while to those who are drawn by the spirit it becomes the water that leads to eternal life.
Quote I don't believe in wordliness, though I like to give my view (alot!). Money doesn't interest me, material items, etc. This life is only short. We need to survive that's all. I don't accumulate possessions. Though love is nice. Spiritual things are the things of love and without it you have nothing though you may possess the world.
Quote So, I guess it reflects also in my view of scripture. Your words should for if they do not then you are being deceptive.
Quote I believe that as we have a body, soul and spirit, so too does scripture. I agree!
Quote None of this has anything really to do with what you asked, sorry for the tangent. All things of the gospel of salvation tie together.
Quote I think so. Don't quite understand the question though. I do not believe that I was clear on what I meant about the Spirit of God as I strove to avoid giving the impression that it is a person. I was basically asking if you believe that the word of God is the love of God and if so; do you believe the Spirit reveals it?
I am doing well except for suffering the normal aches and pains that one suffers in this current age. I hope that is true of you as well.
.
Hi Kerwin.
I have absolutely no judgment on anyone – such as yourself – who believes as you do, even if it's not exactly how I see it. Jesus said in Matthew 25 we are judged on what we do or don't do, and the intentions of our heart (Hebrew 4:12) If you and others have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, then that's good. You are a believer and follower of Yahshua. And I know you are doing well.
I can't answer all your questions, as I'm searching myself. Jesus said to be like children, well children are vulnerable and believe all they're told. We're either stuck in error or open to learn.
Quote I believe you mean that to those who live by their carnal nature scripture become a stumbling block that they misinterpret to their own damnation; while to those who are drawn by the spirit it becomes the water that leads to eternal life. I'll post something after this in regard to that. I found it the other day and it's just what I was meaning, in someone elses words though.
Glad you are well kerwin.
And Mike this does have to do with spirit and body, (kind of).
It's a lot of writing, but it's worth the read. I can't say I agree with the site, because I haven't read it, but this part I do:
From here:
“In the Clementine Homilies the Apostle Peter is found explaining the nature of scripture to his disciple Clement: “…consider with me that if any one, as he pleases, form a dogma agreeable to himself, and then carefully search the Scriptures, he will be able to produce many testimonies from them in favor of the dogma that he has formed”. In considering this, Clement then asks Peter: “How, then, can confidence be placed in them against God, when what every man wishes is found in them?”
The answer can only be realized when we begin to comprehend the true problem. If the scriptures were composed in such a manner so they made perfect sense, then it would be to the carnal mind that the body of the text would make sense to. The purpose of the scriptures is to awaken the dormant part of the mind that corresponds to man's soul and spiritual nature — thereby enabling the disciple to use a greater part of his potential of mind.
Clement of Alexandria puts the whole problem into perspective when he quotes a passage of scripture that is no longer in our bibles today: “For by doing the will of God we know the will of God” (Stromata, Bk 1, Ch 8).
Regardless of how many pamphlets the born again Christian publishes in an attempt to prove the doctrine of the Trinity, the Jehovah's Witness will continue to see their favorite passages of scripture that affirm their position that Jesus was not God.
The result is that each group uses the same book to prove the other group in error. Why was the scriptures written in such a way? Because the Bible is universal — and though each of them embraces the Bible from a different doctrinal perspective, when they begin to do the will of God, they will then begin to know the Will of God — and in the process of knowing and doing, the disciple begins the process of spiritual transformation. How successful each one will be in their religious quest, will be in direct relation to how quickly each can shed their carnal mindset and limitations, and begin to truly come to the Lord in word, thought and deed.
Origen then goes on to state: “Each one, then, ought to describe in his own mind, in a threefold manner, the understanding of the divine letters — that is, in order that all the more simple individuals may be edified, so to speak; by the very body of Scripture; for such we term that common and historical sense: while, if some have commenced to make considerable progress, and are able to see something more (than that), they may be edified by the very soul of Scripture. Those, again, who are perfect, and who resemble those of whom the apostle says, 'We speak wisdom among them that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, who will be brought to naught; but we speak the wisdom of God, hidden in a mystery, which God hath decreed before the ages unto our glory’”.
In view of the fact that all carnal perceptions of the scriptures are equally very partial and incomplete, does it really matter from the Divine Perspective which flavor of incompleteness he embraces? From one perspective the answer is no — and from another perspective, there is a necessary and good reason why each man views both the Bible and life itself from a different point of view.
The person who progresses beyond the milk of the Gospel, and becomes a disciple in the beginning of his walk with the Lord, seeks the mind of the scripture that he might learn “The Way” by which he can enter the Kingdom. And further along the path, those who have ceased to be of this world — those who no longer live in slavery to sin and carnal desire — and have themselves entered the kingdom and are walking in “The Way” of the Lord, are those who perceive the spirit of the scriptures.
With this foundation laid, Origen then explains that: “…all such as these may be edified by the spiritual law itself (which has a shadow of good things to come), as if by the Spirit. For as man is said to consist of body, and soul, and spirit, so also does sacred Scripture, which has been granted by the divine bounty for the salvation of man”. The scriptures are universal — and are made for the salvation of all men. The carnal sees the physical laws of God — the disciple sees The Way — the perfected soul sees God and the Divine Nature that manifests throughout all of Creation.
In the words of James: Pure religion consecrated by the Father is for the disciple to be of the spirit, minister to the orphans and widows, while keeping oneself “unspotted from the world” (KJV). Unspotted denotes that condition where one has absolutely no part of the world, with the exception of ones manifestation as a spiritual presence. It is these unspotted individuals who are those who have been reborn into the spirit, and have totally manifested the Light of Christ in their lives.
Widows and orphans see only the body of the scriptures, and are yet carnal believers who the Apostle Paul describes as the Christians of the simple faith. We can see the next stage of development in Origen's words as he describes those who are more mature: “Clement, moreover, is ordered to send into those cities which are abroad what is written to those individuals who already are withdrawing from the letter — as if the meaning were to those souls who, being built up by this means, have begun to rise above the cares of the body and the desires of the flesh”. Those who are abroad are the people who have transversed the sea of spiritual cleansing, and have risen above the “cares of the body and the desires of the flesh”. It is these men and women who have consecrated their lives in the pursuit of Truth, that will see the mind of the scriptures in their quest to walk in The Way.
Returning once again to the writings of Clement, we can now see that Peter's explanation should make perfect sense in the confrontation that is to take place with Simon Magus: “Therefore Simon, who is going to discuss in public with us tomorrow, is bold against the monarchy of God, wishing to produce many statements from these Scriptures, to the effect that there are many gods, and a certain one who is not He who made this world, but who is superior to Him; and, at the same time, he is going to offer many scriptural proofs. But we also can easily show many passages from them that He who made the world alone is God, and that there is none other besides Him”. Thus, it is foretold that each side will be able to prove their dogma with many scriptural passages. Simon will be able to prove that the world was created by a false god — and Peter will be able to prove that the world was created by the One God. Both will be able to use the same scriptures to prove their assertions. This inherent design of scripture is by Divine Providence that each person sees in the body of the writings confirmation of their own beliefs.
That Peter's warning is correct, is overwhelmingly proven by the modern church. Many very intelligent minds and astute biblical students have studied the scriptures and continue to hold conflicting opinions that oppose what the next person sees very clearly represented in the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God — and they can demonstrate their doctrine in the bible. Baptists, Pentecostals, and most other Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus is God, and they have a whole host of biblical citations to prove their doctrines. The Mormons believe in the pre-existence of the soul. The Quakers have no formal doctrine, and believe only in the revelation of the inner Light. Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, this Orthodox, that Orthodox, this Church of God, the Universalists, th
e Reformers, the all inclusive Liberals, the Conservatives, etc., all faithfully read the scriptures, and all find important points of disagreement. What we must begin to understand is that many of these people are very intelligent and sincere believers — and yet they all see something different when they read the scriptures. Their flaw is not in what they see — but like Simon, they all failed to heed Peter's words when he warned that the “writer should first be considered” — and if the writer is the Holy Spirit, then it is the interpretation that this writer teaches that is the only true meaning.If what the early church authorities say is true, and any number of doctrines and dogma can be proven using the same scriptures, then the reader must learn to relinquish personal interpretation. What, then, is the answer? The genuine revelation of the scriptures can only be learned from the True Prophet as to the correct meaning of the narrative. “Hence, O beloved Clement”, proclaims Peter, “if you would know the things pertaining to God, you have to learn them from Him alone, because He alone knows the truth. For if any one else knows anything, he has received it from Him or from His disciples”. These words — that you can only learn the things of God from Him alone — are as true today as when Peter spoke them to his disciple Clement in the first century.
What is the purpose of the scriptures? Surely not to teach us about history — how can history open the door to the Kingdom within us. By placing spiritual truths in what appears to he an historical document, accomplishes the necessary task of putting the sacred truths of God in the hands of the people — in a language they can understand and relate to — even during that time when they are yet carnal, and unable to comprehend the Mysteries of God. By writing the scriptures in this fashion, the carnal Jew could relate to the scriptures because the writings appeared — on the surface — to communicate and manifest a history of the people who were using them. Yet, Origen warns that, even when the scriptures are historically accurate, there is concealed within the narrative a deeper meaning than what is grasped by the carnal reader.
Was there a historical man named Jesus? Yes — but it is the Living Christ that will save you. Because the scriptures are written for the purpose of assisting the disciples in finding the Christ, even when the scriptures are conveying historical truths pertaining to the Christ, the genuine message is still embedded within the body of the text. Why? Because the purpose of the scriptures is that of a guide and road map out of this world — not to convey to us a system of doctrines in which we should blindly believe and remain immersed in lives of materialism.
Why two gospels? Why would Jesus have incorporate in his teachings what has been referred to as a secret doctrine? The modern believer who only possesses a very limited perception of higher reality will reject the idea of an inner meaning to the scriptures, and will reason that Jesus would have spoken all truths very clearly. To the carnal believer, if it is true that Jesus concealed the mysteries, this would be viewed as being dishonest. Moreover, they would ask why, even when the scriptures are historically accurate, would the true meaning of the message be concealed from the reader? The believer asks the question: Why not just write the truth.
in the words of St. Gregory: “The man who in calculating the transcendent powers of the Deity limits them by his own is a fool”. In order to perceive God and reality, man must go beyond the physical, and activate his own spiritual nature that is lying dormant within his carnal nature. Until this spiritual nature is manifested, man's true reality makes no sense, and man is unable to understand things of any real value.
Carnal man places great confidence and reliance on the events of history — so the Holy Spirit uses what appears to be historical narratives to convey great spiritual truths in the form of allegories. Origen writes that some parts of these historical narratives are based upon a correct perception of historical facts. This causes us to adopt them, and cling to them as a source of spiritual truth. But, Origen warns, even when the narratives of the scriptures are historically accurate, they are still written in such a way that a higher level of spiritual truth is contained within the vail of what is written.
Did Jesus heal a man who was born blind? Yes he did. But how does this knowledge of an historical event draw you closer to God? Even if it makes you believe and have faith in Jesus, this knowledge means nothing if it does not provoke you to strive to walk in The Way. On the other hand, when you begin to recognize the fact that all men born of woman are congenitally blind from a spiritual perspective — and will remain blind until healed by the Son of God — then this knowledge has the capacity to provoke you to change, and cause you to desire to see and behold man's true reality”.
Hi Kerwin.
I won't be logging in here for a while so no need to answer my post. Peace and love to you Kerwin.
Where, oh where has Gene run off to? It seems to me that he has realized his error about spirit having only one meaning in the whole of scripture, and now would rather disappear than own up to the fact that he was wrong.
Gene, a REAL man is able to admit when he was wrong, and learn from his mistakes.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2011,07:34) Where, oh where has Gene run off to? It seems to me that he has realized his error about spirit having only one meaning in the whole of scripture, and now would rather disappear than own up to the fact that he was wrong. Gene, a REAL man is able to admit when he was wrong, and learn from his mistakes.
mikeanother dead end ,on ego
I don't know yet, Gene. I'm waiting for you to answer my question so I can learn the truth. Please answer the one in this thread AND the one in the “Proof that Jesus is the Word” thread.
Thanks,
mikeMike…………….Spirit does not have all kinds of meanings as you falsely assume, it has only one meaning , Spirits are, simply put, the intellects that abide (IN) a Person They are expressed by our word and those who have the Spirit of God can Judge those words and know if that person is of God or not. P
lease don't say i have not answered this before i have many times. Trying to make a person look stupid by you and your co-harts degrading word play only shows what spirits are working (IN) You and Him both. IMO
peace and love……………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2011,20:18) Mike…………….Spirit does not have all kinds of meanings as you falsely assume, it has only one meaning , Spirits are, simply put, the intellects that abide (IN) a Person They are expressed by our word and those who have the Spirit of God can Judge those words and know if that person is of God or not. P lease don't say i have not answered this before i have many times. Trying to make a person look stupid by you and your co-harts degrading word play only shows what spirits are working (IN) You and Him both. IMO
peace and love……………………………………gene
Gene,The word spirit does have multiple meanings as is testified by every dictionary I have consulted.
The various words translated to spirit in the various scriptures each also have various meanings as testified by Strong's. I am sure most if not all its competition agree with it on that point.
I am not sure I understand what you are stating since I believe you are aware of what I just wrote and are not contradicting it.
Kerwin……………..I believe one of the main reasons people are confused in religion is that they apply all kinds of meaning to Spirits, For instance some think Spirits are beings, but no scripture says there are Spirit beings in the bible, Some think Spirits have Bodies but no description of any Spirit BODIES in scripture. Because scripture say God makes his angels Spirits and send them forth they think that means God makes his angles “SPIRIT BEINGS” but no scripture say that. Spirits are not being they are what is (IN) beings. They give th being his sense of thing his Thoughts they compose a Persons (INTELLECT). Show me where scripture shows or states all these other kinds of meanings at. Everything in Scripture will come back to the intellects (IN) a Person, rather Yahweh our GOD or any other beings.
Kerwin…………Here is another thing , take the word Faith, Now go and look it up in a dictionary and notice they different way it is pictured compared to scripture. Dictionaries says what ever you want to believe in is what your Faith, While Scripture say Faith (IS) the subsentence of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things Not Seen. See the dictionary left the EVIDENCE part of the meaning. I go with the scripture meaning, becasue many think they have Faith but in reality have suppositions with no EVIDENCE attached to what they say is their FAITH> IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2011,08:18) Mike…………….Spirit does not have all kinds of meanings as you falsely assume, it has only one meaning , Spirits are, simply put, the intellects that abide (IN) a Person
Luke 24:37
But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing aspiritINTELLECT ABIDING IN A PERSON.Is that how you understand it, Gene? Did the disciples, upon seeing Jesus, think they were seeing an intellect inside a person? YES or NO?
MIke………..I never said they thought thy saw a Intellect inside a person, nowhere did I say it, that is just a LIE of Yours,. Fact is they were just as Ignorant about what was a Spirit as you are. That is why Jesus went on to explain to then that a SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE A BODY AS HE DID. Another words they could not see Spirit at all the were just seeing Him not any kind of spirit at all. So you think that spirits are unseen “BODIES” but no scripture say that, Just the Book of “1 MIKE” right?, Show us were Jesus said Spirits have Bodies of any Kind Mike please use Scriptures though, not suppositions as you have here. I realize you have many meanings of what Spirits are and Mean, and those confuse you logic. But i believe Spirit has ONE Meaning, It simply is what is (IN) a BODY but Not a Body of any Kind> IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2011,09:19) MIke………..I never said they thought thy saw a Intellect inside a person, nowhere did I say it, that is just a LIE of Yours.
Of course you did, Gene. You said, “But i believe Spirit has ONE Meaning, It simply is what is (IN) a BODY but Not a Body of any Kind”, right?And if the word spirit has only one meaning, and the disciples thought they were seeing a spirit, then they MUST HAVE thought they were seeing “the INTELLECT inside someone”, right?
Because “spirit” is the word Luke used in that scripture, Gene. Luke said that they thought they were seeing a SPIRIT. And since, according to you, SPIRIT only has one meaning, then they must have thought they were seeing an intellect inside someone.
Is that what they thought they were seeing, Gene?
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