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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2011,04:08) From cannonized scripture:
Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, “O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.Judges 13:20
As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.Hebrews 1:7
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”Revelation 19:12
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.Gene, the question is not really why I would believe that angels can have the appearance of flames of fire…………but why you WOULDN'T believe it.
Mike…………So where is this flaming Sword at now Mike surely it exists where we can surely see it right, according to you please tell where it is then; And becasue Moses saw a burning Bush that was not burning up does not make the voice speaking to him a burning bush what spoke to him Mike, scripture says it was a Angel of GOD speaking to him there, not that the bush was speaking . Tell us Mike when Phillip disappeared was he a “SPIRIT BEING” or a physical man who the Spirit wisped away. When Peter walked on water was he a Spirit “BEING” or a Physical man and when Jesus Walked on water was He also a Spirit “BEING” they certainly though he was at the time, kinda of like you think he is Now right?, even though He said after his resurrection He was Not a Spirit at all. As i have said all along Mike you have no idea what spirit really is and there lies the problem for you and many like you. Spirit is (NOT) a “BEING” it is what is (IN) “BEINGS”> Humans and all creation that exists Have Spirit (Intellects),(IN) them, if they have LIFE in them. IMOpeace and love…………………………………………….gene
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 02 2011,16:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2011,04:46) Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 01 2011,18:07) Mike I see, you haven't changed have you?
Why would I?
I was actually refering to the way you were speaking to Gene, Mike.
Oh. In that case, I see YOU haven't changed either. You are still passing judgment upon those you perceive as judging others.
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 02 2011,16:24) God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form.
What SCRIPTURE tells you this? See Shimmer, that's the whole problem. SOCIETY and SCIENTISTS have told us that spiritual things are immaterial and formless. But SCRIPTURE NEVER tells us this. I go by SCRIPTURES, not by society or scientists.More from Enoch – Chapter 46:
1 There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days.48:2 In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.
3 Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.
The first part is for you, as it shows Enoch actually SEEING the form of both God AND the spiritual Son of Man – BEFORE he became flesh.
The second part is for Gene, as it shows the Son of Man was already in the presence of the Ancient of Days BEFORE even the stars were created. It also shows that this ALREADY EXISTENT BEING “shall be” a support and “shall be” the light of the nations. This speaks of the Son of Man before he ever BECAME flesh.
Shimmer, as far as your understanding that wings and such are just metaphors……………PROVE IT SCRIPTURALLY. It was not for nothing that God ordered Moses to put the cherubim – COMPLETE WITH WINGS – on the lid of the ark of the covenant.
When you find something SCRIPTURAL to show me that wings and faces and feet and such are just metaphors, I will be here waiting and interested in knowing about it. If you ever find something SCRIPTURAL that says spirits don't have bodies, I will also accept it as truth. Until then, you are only speaking a foreign language to me. Because I don't speak the language of scientific GUESSES or politically correct OPINIONS.
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,17:51) and He then introduces the Book of Enoch a very questionable book i might add
Questionable to WHO, Gene? Inspired writers of the scriptures quoted from it, and it was considered to be scripture to those who lived in Jesus' lifetime.There are many things written in Enoch that Jesus later said himself – even though those things aren't written in any of the cannonized books of scripture.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
Mike…………So where is this flaming Sword at now Mike surely it exists where we can surely see it right, according to you please tell where it is then;
Well Gene, when you find the Garden of Eden, you'll find the sword. Do you think because we don't know the location of the Garden that it didn't exist? Besides, what does us knowing WHERE the sword is now have to do with my point that it was made of fire? Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
And becasue Moses saw a burning Bush that was not burning up does not make the voice speaking to him a burning bush what spoke to him Mike, scripture says it was a Angel of GOD speaking to him there, not that the bush was speaking .
Actually Gene, the scripture says the angel of God appeared to Moses IN FLAMES OF FIRE WITHIN THE BUSH. But then, you don't really hold to the actual words of the scriptures as well as one should, do you Gene?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
Tell us Mike when Phillip disappeared was he a “SPIRIT BEING” or a physical man who the Spirit wisped away.
I assume he was still a human being that God transported. Why? What does this have to do with anything?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
When Peter walked on water was he a Spirit “BEING” or a Physical man and when Jesus Walked on water was He also a Spirit “BEING”
They were both human when they walked on water. Why?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
even though He said after his resurrection He was Not a Spirit at all.
And this illustrates YOUR problem perfectly, Gene. YOU seem to feel that HALF of the scriptures are enough for you. You are able to understand that when Jesus said he was NOT a spirit, it meant he was NOT a spirit. I agree with this, because, as Shimmer showed me, it is SCRIPTURAL.But when Paul says Jesus BECAME a spirit – all of a sudden you don't want to accept the scriptural words you read anymore, because they don't allow the preservation of your own imagined doctrine. And when Paul says ALL angels are ministering spirits, you have to ADD words into the scriptures to preserve your doctrine. Gene, what did Moses and God say about adding or subtracting words of the scriptures?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2011,18:11)
As i have said all along Mike you have no idea what spirit really is and there lies the problem for you and many like you.
And this is why I ignore most of your posts anymore, Gene. Because you HAVE said this………….OVER………….AND OVER………….AND OVER…………..AND OVER………….until we're sick of hearing the same old tired, recycled crap from you. You say the problem is MINE because I don't understand what spirit is. But the problem is actually YOURS because YOU don't realize that there is more than one MEANING of “spirit” in the scriptures. You can't seem to grasp the FACT that “spirit” can refer to the life force inside of us, a feeling or attitude we have, God's active force, OR……………it can refer to a SPIRIT BEING, like I've SCRIPTURALLY showed you over a dozen times.Mark 5
12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs.Demons are fallen angels, Gene. And these spiritual BEINGS are called “spirits” by Jesus Christ himself. In the scripture above, the bolded words “demons”, “us”, “them” and “evil spirits” ALL refer to the same, fallen, ANGELIC BEINGS.
And, according to Enoch, many of them are the spirit beings left behind when the flesh of the Nephilim died in the flood. Their flesh died along with all other flesh, but because they were half spirit and half flesh beings, the spirit part remained and was banished to earth – never to enter heaven.
Enoch 15
8Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth.9The spirits of the giants shall be like clouds, which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, content, and bruise upon earth.
10They shall cause lamentation. No food shall they eat; and they shall be thirsty; they shall be concealed………….
See Gene? These “evil spirits”, just like the ones in Mark 5, are spirit BEINGS that don't necessarily have to dwell within another being. But it is YOU who doesn't get this – even though this teaching is throughout the scriptures.
Mike……….So much talk but not one answer Back to square one did Jesus say he was (NOT) a SPIRIT but a flesh and bone (BEING) after His resurrection , a simple Yes or Know will suffice. So if Jesus say He was Not after his resurrection a SPIRIT “BEING” that is not to say He did not have Spirit (IN) HIM but that He was Not a SPIRIT “BEING” at all. So Mike if Jesus said he was not a Spirit Being when did all that change and He became a Spirit Being. Notice also the letters to the Churches , Jesus is speaking and describing as a son of Man a son of David a Physical being and speaks word to the churches , but notice when he is done speaking to each church he put it this way , To him who has ears to hear let him hear what the SPIRIT IS SAYING unto the churches. Mike why did he not say what (HE) was saying IF He was that SPIRIT “BEING” SPEAKING.
Mike your rendition of Jesus being the second ADAM as a SPIRIT BEING is Flawed, Because the context is dealing with “MANKIND” Not a SPIRIT BEING at all. When we are first born into this world was we are as Jesus was a decedent of the FIRST ADAM, we all were begotten through ADAM (His SEED) but when Jesus was reborn from above by the Spirit of GOD he became a NEW “TYPE” or SECOND ADAM (MAN) not a different PHYSICAL MAN But a NEW PHYSICAL “MAN” that was Born of the SPIRIT From GOD above, A New creation because He had the Spirit of GOD (IN) HIM Not that He had a Different BODY. The type of Body is not what Paul was addressing there. But what was (IN) that BODY. It was a Spiritually driven PHYSICAL BODY> IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 03 2011,08:05) Mike……….So much talk but not one answer Back to square one did Jesus say he was (NOT) a SPIRIT but a flesh and bone (BEING) after His resurrection , a simple Yes or Know will suffice.
YES Gene,Jesus DID say he was NOT a spirit after the resurrection………….WHILE HE WAS STILL ON EARTH.
Now, how about you actually ADDRESS my “so much talk” for once? Why not DIRECTLY address my last post to you. Oh, and the part in my post to Shimmer that was for you.
Why not start by telling us whether you agree that there are many meanings of “spirit” in the scriptures. Do you agree there are?
Mike……………NO ….I do not agree there are many meanings of the word Spirit, that is Your confusion Not Mine. That is why you can apply it to , Angels , Bodies, Human physical changed bodies, Jesus Physical morphing from one state of being to another, God as a person with a body, and on and on it goes. Mike as i said before you have no idea what Spirit really is or you would not be making all these false speculation about it. Don't fell bad for most have no idea what it is either so you are not along.
Spirit is the life (INTELLECTS) that exists (IN) all living things and it all comes from and can be removed or replaced by GOD The Father (IN) any of his creation at anytime He choses . Spirit is it's simplest terms (IS) Intellect, rather good or evil makes no difference it still is Spirits working (N) people and is expressed through a Person By His words rather GOD or Man or Angels makes no difference it is all from Spirits. IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
peace and love
gene
Quote .NO ….I do not agree there are many meanings of the word Spirit, I told you that many times but you never respond ,and so you still confused to this very day,
it seems that scriptures are not for you ,you are better at you own words and explanations than those from scriptures,
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 04 2011,09:17) Mike……………NO ….I do not agree there are many meanings of the word Spirit, that is Your confusion Not Mine.
Then you are simply wrong, Gene. Go to any concordance or dictionary of scriptural words to see how wrong you are. Try Strong. Try NETNotes. Try Biblos.com.Until you understand the FACT that there are many scriptural uses of the word “spirit”, then it's no use for me to waste my time continuing this discussion.
peace and love to you,
mikeMike…………..Isn't that what all trinitarians and Preexistences do say there are all kind of different meanings to words and the pick and chose the one that fit their own preconceived understandings , You are not different from them IMO simply choose any meaning to fit you personal dogmas, or force the text to meet them. Make the word spirit mean “BODY” when in fact it does not mean a BODY at all. Your are right though no sense discussing it with you because you need the freedom to force the meanings to fit you dogmas, on that i agree.
peace and love…………………………………………………………….gene
Gene,
Your last post shows exactly who you are. Instead of refuting the fact that “spirit” means many different things, you instead take pot shots at me and compare me to the Trinitarians, who I battle here as often as I battle you non-preexisters.
Gene, when it comes to the Arizona Cardinals football team, I have a lot of “TEAM SPIRIT”.
Does this particular use of “spirit” refer to the intellect that is inside the Cardinals football team?
If I tell you it DOESN'T, am I “simply choosing any meaning to fit my personal dogmas, or forcing the text to meet them”?
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2011,08:30) Your are right though no sense discussing it with you because you need the freedom to force the meanings to fit you dogmas, on that i agree.
Says the man who has translated his OWN version of the scriptures, complete with added words that aren't even there in the original manuscripts.Mike………….Yes the intellect (IN) you give you a team spirit , Just as the intellect of the team does to its team members also. If you did not have an Intelligent understand about your team you would have no team spirit at all nor would anyone else have, You would simply be ignorant of the team. And as far as a person changing original scriptures the fit, you do that more then anyone here IMO. Because i believe A WORD Is NOT FLESH as YOU do , anyone with any sense could figure that out. Tells us when was the last Flesh word you ever saw Mike, we all would like to know that, maybe that explains a lot about you mental make up.
peace and love………………………………………………….gene
Gene,
I have no more to say to you about “spirit”. The FACT is that “spirit” has many different meanings in scripture. If you want to pretend that this isn't true, then that is YOUR problem.
Quote Tells us when was the last Flesh word you ever saw Mike, we all would like to know that, maybe that explains a lot about you mental make up.
The King of Abyssinia had a spokesman that was called “the Word of the King”. That person was a FLESH “Word”.I've told you this before.
Terricca…………..Or Maybe it shows YOU have learned Nothing Right?. So your saying we only learn something when we agree with you Preexistences who believe like you fellow Trinitarians that is that Jesus preexisted His Berth on this earth right> If that is not something to laugh at i don't know what is.
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
To all………….the word Spirit or Spirits does not have all kinds of Meanings it is precise and absolute in it meaning a Spirit is the intellects that are (IN) a Person and they are expresses BY Words which is defined as “INTELLIGENT UTTERANCES”> Just that simple unless you are involved in “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” teachings, then spirit or spirits can mean BODIES, Angels, persons , souls, ghost, spooks, and on and on it goes. Fact is Spirit is Not a Person of any Kind it is what is (IN) a Person it is the driving force that animates them to think and act the way they do. It is simple not complicated at all. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………………………..gene
Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”Was Jesus saying he was not an (INTELLECT) Gene? Was he saying he did not have a (SPIRIT INSIDE OF HIM)?
What WAS Jesus saying, Gene?
Mike…………Jesus was using the (intelligent) Spirits (IN) Him explaining that He was not a Spirit OR Ghost “BEING” as they and you presume he was and is, why because spirit are not Physical beings of any kind Just as Jesus said they were not , for a spirit does (NOT) have flesh and bone as you see i have” get that Mike, NO SPIRIT has flesh and bone, not now or ever have they had . Spirit can separate from a Body or Soul when it dies. But Spirit will alway exist both Good and Evil, clean and unclean will and so will God and his seven Spirits also. Spirit can flow in and OUT of any Physical “BEING” rather Man or animal, But flesh can not flow in or out of Spirits. As i have said Mike you do not understand what SPIRIT really is and you are not alone most do not also. If everyone did there would be way less confusion about the scriptures. IMO
peace and Love……………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2011,08:42) Terricca…………..Or Maybe it shows YOU have learned Nothing Right?. So your saying we only learn something when we agree with you Preexistences who believe like you fellow Trinitarians that is that Jesus preexisted His Berth on this earth right> If that is not something to laugh at i don't know what is. peace and love………………………………………………..gene
gene
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