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Terricca…………Please notice how you separated Jesus from our Exact Identity, You said “do you have seen and understood Christ LOVE for his Father our God and his?
The reason i am bringing this out Pierre is because it show a mind Set you and other “preexistences Have” which is brought about by the false teachings by Trinitarians and Preexistences. Let me explain, have you understood EXACTLY What Jesus said you would see he is making Himself exactly equal to God the Father as we are.
Jesus said He was going to His Father, and our Father His GOD, and our God . Pierre do you get my point , this (SEPARATIST) thinking in your mind has to do with the False teaching of the Preexistence Doctrine OR YOU WOULD VIEW JESUS AS OUR BROTHER AND NOT (SEPARATE) HIM FROM US AND OUR IDENTITY WITH HIM , and it is the same with the Trinitarians also Brother, I am not saying this to put you or anyone else down here, Just trying to show how Doctrines effect out view of Jesus himself.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,10:43) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
Piere,It is our character God will rule and the physical body goes along for the ride.
Our character is spirit as it cannot be detected by the sence of touch, sight, hearing, smell, or taste.
You are correct that you must love as God loves to enter the kingdom of heaven.
To all,
It is written:
Quote Exodus 25:18 King James Version (KJV)
18And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
If angels have no form then how could the children of Israels form two cherubims of beaten gold?
If cherubims did not have a unique form then why did God specify them by kind instead of just stating angels?
Thank you Kerwin!
I brought that same point up myself about 100 pages ago!
I asked if God was purposely feeding in to mankind's “fairy tales” by showing Moses exactly how the Cherubim were supposed to look on the lid of the ark.
Of course they have bodies, and I'm quite sure their bodies look exactly how God had Moses portray them.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2011,06:00) Terricca…………Please notice how you separated Jesus from our Exact Identity, You said “do you have seen and understood Christ LOVE for his Father our God and his? The reason i am bringing this out Pierre is because it show a mind Set you and other “preexistences Have” which is brought about by the false teachings by Trinitarians and Preexistences. Let me explain, have you understood EXACTLY What Jesus said you would see he is making Himself exactly equal to God the Father as we are.
Jesus said He was going to His Father, and our Father His GOD, and our God . Pierre do you get my point , this (SEPARATIST) thinking in your mind has to do with the False teaching of the Preexistence Doctrine OR YOU WOULD VIEW JESUS AS OUR BROTHER AND NOT (SEPARATE) HIM FROM US AND OUR IDENTITY WITH HIM , and it is the same with the Trinitarians also Brother, I am not saying this to put you or anyone else down here, Just trying to show how Doctrines effect out view of Jesus himself.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
GeneQuote Terricca…………Please notice how you separated Jesus from our Exact Identity, You said “do you have seen and understood Christ LOVE for his Father our God and his? Jn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Jn 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil
Jn 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
why you think Jesus said that ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”?
Pierre
Pierre,
Do we have John 20:17 in our database yet? I'll have to check, for that is a good one. Especially the RETURNING part.
Terricca………..You can make scripture say what you want by changing the text, here is the true text.
John 20: 17…..Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and my God, and your GOD.
Now tell us Pierre where do you see the word “RETURN” their, you changed the text trying to force it to say what in fact it does not say, or you went and found another more “trinitarians or Preexistences translation that fit your belief system, this is exactly what distorts the very words of Jesus and God the Father.
Also notice how Jesus relates to his disciples as BRETHREN, and connects “his God and your God and His father and your Father” . Cant you see how Jesus ties us with him in his Exactness in every way. Why do you and other preexistences try to drive a wedge between Jesus and Ourselves? Be careful or you may get you teachings and truly get “SEPARATED” from Him, seen you deny you Identity with Him as a Human Being. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2011,14:17) Pierre, Do we have John 20:17 in our database yet? I'll have to check, for that is a good one. Especially the RETURNING part.
Mike……….Problem is the “RETURNING” part is not their. Just Pierre forcing the text to say what in fact it does not say much like you and all trinitarians and Preexistences do all the time. This to me is like the saying you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, Or ever looking but never coming unto the truth. IMOpeace and love………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,21:56) Thank you Kerwin! I brought that same point up myself about 100 pages ago!
I asked if God was purposely feeding in to mankind's “fairy tales” by showing Moses exactly how the Cherubim were supposed to look on the lid of the ark.
Of course they have bodies, and I'm quite sure their bodies look exactly how God had Moses portray them.
mike
Mike,Some say Cherubim is a ranking but since they have a specific form it is evidence they are a particular kind of angel.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,10:43) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
Pierre,So do you agree that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven as it is character that inherits the kingdom of heaven for the physical counts for nothing.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2011,09:13) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,10:43) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
Pierre,So do you agree that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven as it is character that inherits the kingdom of heaven for the physical counts for nothing.
Kerwinlet clear this up,
when we talk about the kingdom of heaven this means that the heaven are the powers that rule that kingdom ,but the kingdom or his people are on earth,
and only 144K are counted as the brothers of Christ and will join him in heaven ,(no way out of this )
all others are and will be resurrected on the earth,and the the righteous will be the leaders on earth ,
so to go to heaven and be in that part of the kingdom NO THERE IS NO FLESH AND BLOOD BONES THAT CAN GO ,
our flesh and blood is not our being ,it is our soul that is us,
PierreQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2011,08:22) Terricca………..You can make scripture say what you want by changing the text, here is the true text. John 20: 17…..Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and my God, and your GOD.
Now tell us Pierre where do you see the word “RETURN” their, you changed the text trying to force it to say what in fact it does not say, or you went and found another more “trinitarians or Preexistences translation that fit your belief system, this is exactly what distorts the very words of Jesus and God the Father.
Also notice how Jesus relates to his disciples as BRETHREN, and connects “his God and your God and His father and your Father” . Cant you see how Jesus ties us with him in his Exactness in every way. Why do you and other preexistences try to drive a wedge between Jesus and Ourselves? Be careful or you may get you teachings and truly get “SEPARATED” from Him, seen you deny you Identity with Him as a Human Being. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Gene
I will never change scriptures;but i quoted from the NIV 1984Jn 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”NIV
JN 20:17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”NASV
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “NRS
Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God KJV
Jn 20:17 Jesus says to her, Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.DARBY
Jn 20:17 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.”NBLT
Jn 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me [do not hold Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.NAB
now are you assuming that Christ did not came down from heaven ?
please answer that question
Pierre
Pierre,
Quote when we talk about the kingdom of heaven this means that the heaven are the powers that rule that kingdom ,but the kingdom or his people are on earth, I agree with the letter of the words you wrote above.
Quote and only 144K are counted as the brothers of Christ and will join him in heaven ,(no way out of this ) all others are and will be resurrected on the earth,and the the righteous will be the leaders on earth ,
so to go to heaven and be in that part of the kingdom NO THERE IS NO FLESH AND BLOOD BONES THAT CAN GO ,
I do not find this teaching in Scripture.
Quote our flesh and blood is not our being ,it is our soul that is us, I also agree with the letter of these words though will add that our flesh and bone serve as the media by which our soul interacts with the physical world and our spirit (seat of our character) is our driver.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2011,03:13) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,10:43) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
Pierre,So do you agree that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven as it is character that inherits the kingdom of heaven for the physical counts for nothing.
Terra, Kerwin, sorry to interrupt,Quote but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
I had a spiritual experience, a vision, Iv writen about it before. And there are others who have had the same thing. I was taken up, and I felt love, and there were no words to describe this love I felt. There was no awareness of having a body, no taste, no smell, no speaking. It was all thought and feeling. The feeling was love, beyond anything you could imagine, and there was no fear, there was a feeling of absolute safety. As I said there are no words to adequately describe it.
I made a post the other day, about the summary of Gods commands and something I saw in it:But the words which I'll put in blue, have to be read SLOWLY.
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
The uniting word between the two is the word love.
The uniting – All of John Chapter 8…that they may be one, even as we are one… I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
word – John Chapter 1 – I would not normaly ever do this, but, replace the words ('the word' or 'he' or 'the light]) with the word love… because God is love…
In the beginning was (love), and (love) was with God, and (love) was God. (God is love). Love was in the beginning with God; all things were made through love, and without love was not anything made that was made. In love was life, and the life was the light of men. Love shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
between the two – The Father and Son and the two commandments.
is the word – John 1.
love – God is love. and “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
“By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.”
“Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
There are so many more verses.
Shimmer, interesting post…. even though I don't agree that John 1 replacing the Word of God with Love is not according to Scripture, it still is interesting…. love is a feeling. A couple of nights ago, I was by myself which I hate. So I started singing Songs to God. After a couple of Songs, Love came over me so strong, and the peace that went along with it, is hard to describe…That reminded me that eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard prepared for them that Love Him…. What a great God and Jesus His Son we have….. The only hope I have this would happen more often to me while still in the flesh……
Peace and Love IreneKerwin
Quote Quote
and only 144K are counted as the brothers of Christ and will join him in heaven ,(no way out of this )all others are and will be resurrected on the earth,and the the righteous will be the leaders on earth ,
so to go to heaven and be in that part of the kingdom NO THERE IS NO FLESH AND BLOOD BONES THAT CAN GO ,
================================
I do not find this teaching in Scripture.Rev 7:2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
Rev 7:3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.Rev 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000 Rev 7:6,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000 Rev 7:7,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000 Rev 7:8,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.Rev 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God
Rev 15:3 and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
Rev 21:11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 21:13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls.
Rev 21:16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.
Rev 21:17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man’s measurement, which the angel was using.
Rev 21:18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.
Rev 21:19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
Rev 21:21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
Rev 21:25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.there is more but if you need more
Pierre
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 18 2011,18:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2011,03:13) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,10:43) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
Pierre,So do you agree that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven as it is character that inherits the kingdom of heaven for the physical counts for nothing.
Terra, Kerwin, sorry to interrupt,Quote but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
I had a spiritual experience, a vision, Iv writen about it before. And there are others who have had the same thing. I was taken up, and I felt love, and there were no words to describe this love I felt. There was no awareness of having a body, no taste, no smell, no speaking. It was all thought and feeling. The feeling was love, beyond anything you could imagine, and there was no fear, there was a feeling of absolute safety. As I said there are no words to adequately describe it.
I made a post the other day, about the summary of Gods commands and something I saw in it:But the words which I'll put in blue, have to be read SLOWLY.
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
The uniting word between the two is the word love.
The uniting – All of John Chapter 8…that they may be one, even as we are one… I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
word – John Chapter 1 – I would not normaly ever do this, but, replace the words ('the word' or 'he' or 'the light]) with the word love… because God is love…
In the beginning was (love), and (love) was with God, and (love) was God. (God is love). Love was in the beginning with God; all things were made through love, and without love was not anything made that was made. In love was life, and the life was the light of men. Love shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
between the two – The Father and Son and the two commandments.
is the word – John 1.
love – God is love. and “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
“By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.”
“Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
There are so many more verses.
shimmerI think i have ask you ones what is it that you call LOVE ?
I mean related to God
Pierre
Pierre,
Thank you for quoting some of the particular scriptures that you believe are about the 144,000. As far as I have observed, only Revelations 7:2-5 and Revelations 14:1-5 explicitly mention 144,000 while I do not see how you connect them to the other scriptures you mention.
First the book of Revelations is a book of prophecy and prophecy is often spoken in abstract terms and yet you have chosen to understand both Revelations 7:2-5 and Revelations 14:1-5 in literal terms. Why therefore do you believe they should be understood literally and not symbolically?
Second is that if one takes the 144,000 as a literal number then should you not also take literal that Revelations 7:4 explicitly states they are members of the tribes of Israel and Revelations 7:5 state the number of them from each tribe.
Third, Revelations 7:3 speaks of a seal being put on the forehead of the servants of God and Revelations 7:4 and 14:1 speak of the 144,000 having a seal on their foreheads. Are they the only ones you believe are sealed?
Forth is that the 144,000 are never called saints in either of the passages that explicitly mention them.
Fifth is that I believe you assume that because they sing a song before the throne, the four living creature, and the elders that they are in the heavens. It thus follows that you also believe anyone acting before the throne of God is in the heavens. Does scripture support that conclusion?
So if you understand Revelations 7:2-5 and Revelations 14:1-5 literally then it follows you believe there are a literal 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel which bear the seal of the servants of God on their forehead and sing a song before the throne of God who status as saintly is undefined in those passages. Is that what you believe?
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