Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Irene

Quote

Angels live on clouds and play the Harp, and when it thunders the strings brake….”

:laugh:

say hello to georg Love you both

August 2, 2011 at 10:05 pm#254814

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,04:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2011,14:21)

Kerwin

your answer is circular ,it does not mean anything.

if you say that angel are flesh and blood and boons then you are not understanding scriptures that says other wise

Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 At this I fell at his(the angel) feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

you are mixing the heavenly creation and man s creation,

Pierre

Pierre,

My answer is not circular though I do credit both me and you with lacking full knowledge of scripture and therefore being subject to error on it.

Since it is clear to me some accounts in scripture demonstrate at least certain angels have flesh and bone I look at Hebrews 1:14 in another way than you by interpreting the word “spirit” as character instead of the type of being.

I can see that in Revelations 19:10 John falls at the “feet “of the angel but I am not sure of your point nor of the context of that scripture. Can you perhaps explain it some more for me.

Edited to fix wording, delete unneeded quote, and to fix formatting.

Kerwin

first when was the earth surface created to be populated by living creatures ?

where angels and Christ the son already created ?

on the sixth day God rest,

so if the angels are not with us on earth where are they ?

when they visit us they are in flesh and boons like us,but it seems they never stay long,

what is a minister ?it is someone in service to others is it not ?

so the word ministering would be the active action of that service,right ?

so what I understand is that they are carrying the message of God to men .

but they are in their nature spirits =invisible beings,

there are some called ;Arch angel; Seraphim angel; ;Cherubim;and messengers

all have different position and duties

Pierre

August 3, 2011 at 1:40 am#254839

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Paul wrote he was unsure whether a man entered the third heaven in body or out and if he was as sure as you insist then he would not have said he was unsure.

Hi Kerwin,

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Now, could God bring a flesh man in body to VIEW the third heaven if He wanted to? Of course He could. In fact, God could make it so that flesh and blood COULD inherit His Kingdom if He wanted to. But apparently He does not want to.

So Paul, (who IS HIMSELF “the man” he was talking about), could have had a spiritual vision, while his flesh body never left the earth. OR, he could even have been taken in flesh body to VIEW God's Kingdom. But that flesh body did not INHERIT it, as in “live there forever”.

Just some things to ponder.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Have you considered that you choose to excuse the fact that scripture records at least some angels have flesh and bone bodies.

I am unaware of any such scripture, Kerwin.

peace to you,
mike

August 3, 2011 at 5:36 am#254859

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2011,04:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,04:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2011,14:21)

Kerwin

your answer is circular ,it does not mean anything.

if you say that angel are flesh and blood and boons then you are not understanding scriptures that says other wise

Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

you are mixing the heavenly creation and man s creation,

Pierre

Pierre,

My answer is not circular though I do credit both me and you with lacking full knowledge of scripture and therefore being subject to error on it.

I can see that in Revelations 19:10 John falls at the “feet “of the angel but I am not sure of your point nor of the context of that scripture. Can you perhaps explain it some more for me.

Edited to fix wording, delete unneeded quote, and to fix formatting.

Kerwin

first when was the earth surface created to be populated by living creatures ?

where angels and Christ the son already created ?

on the sixth day God rest,

so if the angels are not with us on earth where are they ?

when they visit us they are in flesh and boons like us,but it seems they never stay long,

what is a minister ?it is someone in service to others is it not ?

so the word ministering would be the active action of that service,right ?

so what I understand is that they are carrying the message of God to men .

but they are in their nature spirits =invisible beings,

there are some called ;Arch angel; Seraphim angel; ;Cherubim;and messengers

all have different position and duties

Pierre

Pierre,

Due to limited access to online scriptures I am unable to answer everything you wrote in full at this time.

One I will answer with the question “do you believe in the unseen?'

I will also point out that some of God's Messengers are called living creatures.

In addition the heavens were created at the same time earth itself was. I believe scripture also attests that angels witnessed creation.

I agree that there are different kinds of angels but I also want to point out scripture makes it clear they have different forms. I believe statues of one type of angerl were constructed in the temple in relation to the arc of the covenant.

I agree that angels are sometimes represented as having flesh and bone when they appear to human beings. I am not willing to say more than that in this post.

I believe by ministering spirit it means one is deposed to actively give aid and or service to others in obedience to God.

Here is an example of what I mean though Oxford Advanced learner's Dictionary uses “angel” as a synomyn of “spirit”.

August 3, 2011 at 5:42 am#254862

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,07:40)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Paul wrote he was unsure whether a man entered the third heaven in body or out and if he was as sure as you insist then he would not have said he was unsure.

Hi Kerwin,

Just some things to ponder.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Have you considered that you choose to excuse the fact that scripture records at least some angels have flesh and bone bodies.

I am unaware of any such scripture, Kerwin.

peace to you,
mike

Mike,

We agree that a flersh and bone body can enter the heaven is God so wills.

You state you do not know of any accounts it scripture that show angels with flesh and bone but both Irene and Pierre admit there are. They also both currently believe that such events are temporary.

Pierre also stated he believed there are different kinds of angels. Something I agree with. Do you also agree?

August 3, 2011 at 5:47 am#254864

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 02 2011,19:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,16:47)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:36)

Kerwin! So you believe that Angels are in Heaven with flesh an blood? That is not what Scripture says.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

If Paul meant it the way you understand then he would have known the man who visited the third heaven traveled there out of their body. Since he neither knew or cared he obviously did not mean the words the way you understand them. He was therefore making another point which may may well not be about heaven as the passage you refer to does not state heaven.

Kerwin! What are you revering to?
You do not believe that Angels are in Heaven? Where are they living then? Not on Earth!!!!!
This is what Georg said:”
Angels live on clouds and play the Harp, and when it thunders the strings brake….”
Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

I enjoyed the humor.

I have not stated that angels do not dwell in the heavens as at least some do dwell in the spiritual realms.

I was just showing that flesh and bone can enter the kingdom of heaven. Mike agreed that it can happen as long as God allows it but he also stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

August 3, 2011 at 6:10 am#254868

Participant

Kerwin

Quote

“do you believe in the unseen?'

if it is my pay cheque yes i believe that i will never see one again

so what you mean unseen ?

August 3, 2011 at 6:29 am#254871

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2011,12:10)

Kerwin

Quote

“do you believe in the unseen?'

if it is my pay cheque yes i believe that i will never see one again

so what you mean unseen ?

Pierre,

Angels are unseen when God chooses to hide them from our sight as he did with Baalam. We can thus not see them even when they are right in front of our eyes.

Where is the spiritual realm that our battles are fought on?

August 3, 2011 at 3:23 pm#254884

Pastry

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,07:40)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Paul wrote he was unsure whether a man entered the third heaven in body or out and if he was as sure as you insist then he would not have said he was unsure.

Hi Kerwin,

Just some things to ponder.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:44)

Have you considered that you choose to excuse the fact that scripture records at least some angels have flesh and bone bodies.

I am unaware of any such scripture, Kerwin.

peace to you,
mike

Mike,

We agree that a flersh and bone body can enter the heaven is God so wills.

You state you do not know of any accounts it scripture that show angels with flesh and bone but both Irene and Pierre admit there are. They also both currently believe that such events are temporary.

Pierre also stated he believed there are different kinds of angels. Something I agree with. Do you also agree?

Kerwin, wait a minute. I did not say that Angels have flesh and blood. The are Spirit Beings. What I did say is that they can manifest themselves and take on a Human body, to help those on the earth…..they live on clouds and play their Harp's and when it thunders their strings brake….Peace and Love Irene

August 3, 2011 at 3:25 pm#254885

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,10:52)

I agree with Mike and Pierre that Angels are Spirit Beings. However they can manifest them self as a Human Being, to help those here on earth. I speak out of experience….. Two Angels walked away from our Granddaughter when She was only two years old. Some thought it ironic that they did not help Her, But when our Daughter took our Granddaughter to the Hospital and not a scratch was on Her, we do believe they were Angels who caught Her, when She jumped of the second floor Balcony. That was now 17 years ago…. Peace and Love Irene

This is my previous post to Kerwin….Do yous see what I really said….Irene

August 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm#254890

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,04:34)

Kerwin, pray on the matter. What you are currently doing is what Gene so often does with many scriptures. You have made up in your own mind what is true, and because of that are willing to overlook the words of Jesus himself who says that spirits DON'T HAVE FLESH AND BONE.

Mike…….Actually that is exactly what you are doing, your assuming a Being means a PERSON without a BODY and in fact it does not mean that at all. GOD Makes up not only our and their bodies but their Spirits they have in them, even the spirits are made by Him and given us in our bodies. Their is no such thing as a “Spirit BODY” there exists no such thing rather angel, or man. The only one that can exist out side of a body is GOD himself and even He (LIVES) (IN) and through his creation.

peace and love…………………………..gene

August 3, 2011 at 11:47 pm#254901

Pastry

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:47)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 02 2011,19:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,16:47)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:36)

Kerwin! So you believe that Angels are in Heaven with flesh an blood? That is not what Scripture says.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

I enjoyed the humor.

I have not stated that angels do not dwell in the heavens as at least some do dwell in the spiritual realms.

Kerwin! But Scriptures say that flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God….You know the Scripture, so why don't you believe it. You say they are in the Heavens, in the Air? And the clouds? I don't believe that God can ever look on a flesh and blood body Human being, because all have fallen short of the glory of God. All have sinned…. and if we believe we have not sinned, the truth is not in us… I think you also know that Scripture, right?
Scriptures do not contradict….. It is as it is said…. not maybe it could if God wanted it to…. God simple can't, because He is purer then gold… We will have to be a Spirit Being in order to be with Almighty Jehovah God….that is what I believe….When God will come down with the New Jerusalem, which is the Spiritual Kingdom of God, no Human Being can enter into it… But His Kingdom is twofold. The earth is also His Kingdom and all meek will inherit the earth…. But they will not be able to enter into the Spiritual Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem… they cannot even see it…..
Peace and Love Irene

August 4, 2011 at 12:02 am#254903

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:42)

You state you do not know of any accounts it scripture that show angels with flesh and bone but both Irene and Pierre admit there are.

Did Pierre and Irene become inspired scripture writers when I wasn't looking? Perhaps an actual scripture that clearly says an angel is made of flesh would help. Is there one?

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:42)

Pierre also stated he believed there are different kinds of angels. Something I agree with. Do you also agree?

Yes, I agree with that. But I can't say whether they are of different species, like man versus dog, or if the differences are more subtle, like Chinese versus African.

But there are definitely different RANKS among the angels. And some are described as different physically than others.

peace,
mike

August 4, 2011 at 12:08 am#254905

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:47)

Hi Kerwin,

I didn't actually say “enter”, but “viewed”. Kerwin, here's the score card so far:

1. Paul SPECIFICALLY says that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. I assume that since angels DWELL in the Kingdom of God, they have “inherited” it. Therefore, they cannot be flesh.

2. On the other side of the coin, we have Paul who may or may not have been able to VIEW heaven in a flesh body.

It seems to me that you are putting a lot of faith in this “maybe/maybe not” scripture, while ignoring the SPECIFIC one.

That's just how I'm seeing it.

mike

August 4, 2011 at 12:36 am#254907

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2011,00:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2011,12:10)

Kerwin

Quote

“do you believe in the unseen?'

if it is my pay cheque yes i believe that i will never see one again

so what you mean unseen ?

Pierre,

Angels are unseen when God chooses to hide them from our sight as he did with Baalam. We can thus not see them even when they are right in front of our eyes.

Where is the spiritual realm that our battles are fought on?

Kerwin

the angel that receive a mission to be done by him,he receives all powers from God to just do that ,God does not travel along side that angel ,angels are spiritual beings,not earthly beings

so if they retain there spiritual status we human can not see them ,we see them only if they materialize as we are,

Quote

Where is the spiritual realm that our battles are fought on?

the spiritual spirit(soul) that Paul talk about here is in the mind and heart of us all ,
Satan has corrupt all men from the first lie he made with Eve,

from their on men as to understand what is good and bad ,

some could understand it like Abel ,Enoch, Noah, Abraham and many others.

later God gives the law to Israel,to guide them in how to become good and stay good ,but the powers of wickedness of men around them got to them and so became corrupt again.

so at last God send his son to save men by calling on them to accept the grace of God and he also show men how this is being done ,

so that now it is our self that is responsible for our live before God

Pierre

August 4, 2011 at 12:45 am#254908

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2011,11:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,04:34)

peace and love…………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Luke 24
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a spirit. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

1. Was it Jesus himself who appeared to these disciples? YES, it was.

2. How could these disciples, who obviously recognized Jesus, have thought they were SEEING a spirit if spirits are all invisible and only what is inside other bodies and beings?

Do you understand this Gene? These disciples SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES a body and a face and hands and feet………………recognized them as belonging to Jesus Christ……………………yet STILL thought they were SEEING a SPIRIT at first.

And Jesus completely UNDERSTOOD what they were thinking and why they were thinking it. They thought they were seeing the spirit of Jesus wandering around outside of his grave, right? And not one of them said, “Oh, this must REALLY BE Jesus, for if it was a spirit, we would not be able to see him, nor would he have any form……………..because spirits are what's INSIDE other bodies, and have no body, face, or form of their own.”

Gene, did any of the disciples say this? Of course not. Why? Because UNLIKE YOU, these disciples understood that spirits are SPIRIT BEINGS, and they have their own SPIRIT FORMS, FACES AND BODIES.

Now…………..how did Jesus address their fear and amazement? Did Jesus say, “I know what you're thinking, but spirits don't have FORMS AND FACES AND BODIES people! Spirits are invisible and are what is inside other bodies!” Well Gene? Did Jesus say that? Did Jesus say ANYTHING AT ALL that would teach his disciples what YOU try to teach us?

NOPE. Jesus said he was not a spirit – NOT BECAUSE HE HAD A BODY – but because that body was made of flesh and bone.

Gene, I hope this helps you.

mike

August 4, 2011 at 12:58 am#254909

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2011,18:02)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:42)

You state you do not know of any accounts it scripture that show angels with flesh and bone but both Irene and Pierre admit there are.

Did Pierre and Irene become inspired scripture writers when I wasn't looking? Perhaps an actual scripture that clearly says an angel is made of flesh would help. Is there one?

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:42)

Pierre also stated he believed there are different kinds of angels. Something I agree with. Do you also agree?

Yes, I agree with that. But I can't say whether they are of different species, like man versus dog, or if the differences are more subtle, like Chinese versus African.

But there are definitely different RANKS among the angels. And some are described as different physically than others.

peace,
mike

Mike

I think kerwin does not express him self good enough,but first i never told him that i believe that angels are made of flesh and bones,but that angels have materialized them self for some reason,

Quote

Did Pierre and Irene become inspired scripture writers when I wasn't looking?

Pierre

August 4, 2011 at 1:25 am#254917

Blocked

Yeah I know, Pierre.

Istari and Irene also believe that angels could manifest flesh bodies for their missions on earth.

Although it is a popular belief, I haven't found any scriptural evidence for this. Even Hollywood can make some pretty realistic aliens and zombies that look like flesh when they are really made of plastics. Surely God could cause anyone to see an angel as fire, water, shining gold, or even as a flesh and blood human being…………..without the angel actually consisting of any of those things.

And the problem I see with it is the donkey and Balaam. Did the angel manifest flesh that only the donkey could see at first…………and THEN later manifest a different flesh that both the donkey AND Balaam could see?

Or was the angel a spirit being the whole time, and God merely opened the eyes of the donkey to see him first?

Many questions abound when discussing scriptural things, eh?

peace to you,
mike

August 4, 2011 at 2:15 am#254921

Participant

mike

Quote

Istari and Irene also believe that angels could manifest flesh bodies for their missions on earth.

Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

Ge 18:9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.
“There, in the tent,” he said.
Ge 18:10 Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”

Ge 18:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.

Ge 18:22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
Ge 18:23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

Ge 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

Ge 19:11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door'(this could be similar to the donkey of Balaam)
Ge 19:16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them.
Ge 22:8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
Ge 22:9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
Ge 22:10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
Ge 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Ge 22:12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
Ge 22:13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Ge 22:14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide

24 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him till the morning. 25 And he saw that he prevailed not against him; and he touched the broad part of his thigh, and the broad part of Jacob’s thigh was benumbed in his wrestling with him. 26 And he said to him, Let me go, for the day has dawned; but he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said to him, What is thy name? and he answered, Jacob. 28 And he said to him, Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name; for thou hast prevailed with God, and shalt be mighty with men. 29 And Jacob asked and said, Tell me thy name; and he said, Wherefore dost thou ask after my name? and he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of that place, the Face of God; for, said he,I have seen God face to face, and my life was preserved. 31 And the sun rose upon him, when he passed the Face of God; and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel will by no means eat of the sinew which was benumbed, which is on the broad part of the thigh, until this day, because the angel touched the broad part of the thigh of Jacob—even the sinew which was benumbed.

Lk 1:26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
Lk 1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary

Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

all those encounters are sudden ,and for a purpose ,they taking man s figure this is because it can not go the other way ,this is the love of God ,angels are spirit beings ,and those who have speared to man ,took a man form,

this is my believe

Pierre

August 4, 2011 at 2:56 am#254926