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Mike and Kathi,
The Spirit is like thought. Does 'thought' have a body?
A 'thought' can come upon you.
A 'thought' can leave you.A 'thought' can influence your behaviour…drive the actions of the body.
I'm not sure the example Gene gives of the Computer system is very good…too many errors… (Computers are my game…)
But and moreover, you are still taking literal 'earthly' examples and applying them literally to the Spirit.
It is not the same, they are not immediately interchangeable.
For instance, we can say, 'Spirit is like Wind' but note, 'like'…this is not 'the same as' but should be expanded to 'Likened'. In fact, Spirit is Ethereal, it has no physical qualities that equate to that of Wind…it does 'get blown about', it doesn't have a 'body of mass' such that it causes pressure on a bordering object…presses over a board, lifts a leaf, sways a tree….these are still physical elements.
Spirit is energy and pure energy does not have mass, therefore does not take up any space, does not affect anything around it…does not have an 'around' because it is everywhere…
Spirit can become Mass…
E=Mc(2)… Gather energy together… (E greater than 0) and it can be changed into Mass, become a body.
So the 'Spirit' intellect can gather Energy as it wills and form a body, a Mass, in the shape of a human being. Energy is everywhere, and all animate objects have a 'spirit', an intellect, even the tiniest creeping microbe, has an 'intellect'…else how does it make a decision to go here, there, to eat, to hide, to breed, to rest…the intellect is not high and virtually automated….(man has not yet created an 'intellect' in his Computer systems that matches even the minutest creature existing anywhere)
Too much…don't get me talking about Computers…Mike………..First who is saying spirit it is everywhere, it is only (IN) the Bodies God has Made for (IT) to be in, like a human body Angels or animal. They (all) are everywhere at one time that is what you are saying not me. No i believe spirit is where it has been put. You may say to me, who put it there I would say it was transmitted you would say, How? , i would say by someones Intellect speaking it to me and the intellect of that spoken (WORD) Identified with what (intellect) i all ready learned by my processor my mind. Which is able to recieve all kinds of data both good and evil . God the Father is able to remove evil data and replace it with Good data, in fact when we read his words that process is taking place. Remember Jesus said the WORD he was Speaking to Us was Spiirt and Life. Spirit does not have a body of it own , it exists (IN) Bodies, in Humans or any organic life forms in fact it is the life of those forms, all organic life form has spirit (IN) them or they exist as Inorganic.
Mike it might help you to look up the meaning of what a Body is and you will see it contains Matter of some-kind if life is in it. You example of Legion as having a Body does not fly because Thought is what was driving the Man crazy and speaking through his mouth. Thats what went in the pigs and droves them crazy also, when it left the man he returned back to a normal man with normal cognate powers as all men have. Spirit does not have a body it animates Bodies causes them to rationalize and think , GOD is Spirit he does not have a body He exist by being (IN) his creation. Just as unclean spirits (intellects) do He also does through our intellects expanding them and replacing them with his (intellects) in that way we are being conformed to Him through the thoughts of our mind. And those thoughts have no bodies of any kind. They are thoughts transmitted through the air from one person to another by Speech. All behavior is learned behavior, it can be unlearned and replaced and cleaned or made filthy it all depends on what is being added to us, GOD the Father can clean and rejuvenate everyone, By his WORDS and will someday IMO. That God will be all and in you all. IMO
peace and love……………………………………….gene
JA………..I was only using the computer thing to bring our how information can be stored and increased or decreased also you can empty files and add new data and that data can not be see it has no body of its own and can only function through a Body (the computer) Just a comparison, some invisible (magnetic Charges) working in a Body the Computer. I do agree a computer no match for us though.
peace and love………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2010,11:27) it is only (IN) the Bodies God has Made for (IT) to be in, like a human body Angels or animal.
Hi Gene,So what is holding it in that body? It can't be the body of flesh, right? Because the spirit can come in and out of the body of flesh without actually disturbing the body of flesh.
So what is the “force field” that is holding that spirit within the body God told it to be in? How does that one spirit “obey” God and stay where it is told, and not be anywhere else? And what is it that determines that the spirit is in fact INSIDE the body that God sent it to and not somewhere else?
Is the spirit within you the exact shape as you, right down to your toe nails? Is it a circle the size of your heart? Is it a triangle the size of a blood corpuscle?
No matter what the answer is, that then is the size of the “body” of the spirit.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,03:53) If a spirit is inside a man, then what is it that keeps the spirit INSIDE him, but not OUTSIDE him? Is it the man's flesh body that is able to contain the spirit? Obviously not, for the spirit can enter him and exit him at will, right? Now, picture this. Legion was in the man. There had to be some “container” that let Legion be ONLY inside that one man, and not also inside Jesus and the others, right? That container is a body. Furthermore, since Legion was made of many demons all cohabitating within the man, why didn't they all just mix together as one “combined” spirit being? How were they able to keep their separate identities within the man?
Legion didn't say, “I am big because many of us melded together”, did he? No, he said “there are MANY OF US in this man”. If there is not a body of sorts that separated one of the spirits from the others, then Legion couldn't have said “we are many”, right?
So not only did their bodies enable their beings to be only inside the man and not outside of him, but those bodies also separated the many within the man from each other, enabling them to remain “many” instead of “one great combination of many”.
Mike…………Legion was many Bits of informations a string of them much like storing data in a computer what goes in must come out. You liking it like each thing in the man was a different person with a body, when in fact each Spirit (intellect) was a piece of the whole thinking process which grow taking over in the man and when cast out of him and into the Pigs overtook their thoughts also and they went crazy and ran into the sea. Much like when a unclean Spirit (thought) goes back into a man it can be added to more unclean Spirits (intellects) thoughts with it and the last state of that man is worse then the first, So we should avoid unclean thinking and replace it with clean thinking. We can add to what we already have or with God's Help Change our thoughts if they are unclean or wrong. IMOpeace and love……………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,11:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2010,11:27) it is only (IN) the Bodies God has Made for (IT) to be in, like a human body Angels or animal.
Hi Gene,So what is holding it in that body? It can't be the body of flesh, right? Because the spirit can come in and out of the body of flesh without actually disturbing the body of flesh.
So what is the “force field” that is holding that spirit within the body God told it to be in? How does that one spirit “obey” God and stay where it is told, and not be anywhere else? And what is it that determines that the spirit is in fact INSIDE the body that God sent it to and not somewhere else?
Is the spirit within you the exact shape as you, right down to your toe nails? Is it a circle the size of your heart? Is it a triangle the size of a blood corpuscle?
No matter what the answer is, that then is the size of the “body” of the spirit.
peace and love,
mike
Mike………..It is stored in our cells as information it stays there and can be increased or decreased by GOD . Our minded are simply a store house of Information we recieved from the World or from GOD we are is some way like computers taking in information and Speaking it which is sending it our of us. WE transmit it back and forth, Through the Air ways. These sound ways transmit it to the ear where it is converted to electrical impulses that is processed in our brains and stored there and can be accessed at will. You ask what holds it in the Body . The brain hold it in it self once it is placed there. But that is not bodies being stored in our brains but information or Spirits (intellects). IMOQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 29 2010,10:57) Mike and Kathi, The Spirit is like thought. Does 'thought' have a body?
A 'thought' can come upon you.
A 'thought' can leave you.A 'thought' can influence your behaviour…drive the actions of the body.
Well, at least I can understand what you're saying here. But keep in mind, God can tell the difference between Satan and Gabriel, just like he knows our individual thoughts. So in God's eyes, each “thought” has it's own “signature”, or recognizable qualities that distinguish it from the millions of other thoughts. Just like the angels.What if we said “prayers” instead of thoughts? God has an alter filled with the prayers of believers, right? Can he tell which prayers are mine and which are yours? Or are our prayers just a jumbled up, mixed up mess in God's eyes?
Of course He can tell the difference JA. God knows all, right? And the “signature” tell-tale signs that say this is YOUR prayer is like the “body” of that prayer. Within this “space” in the alter is YOUR prayer, separate from all other prayers because it has it's own unique “signature”………or “body”.
It doesn't really matter how infinitesimal or oblique you make the spirits in your mind. If there is a way for God to tell one from the other, then that is because of their own special characteristics. And for those characteristics to be unique to THIS area of space and not to THAT area of space means there is a body of sorts separating what your prayer consists of from what mine does.
Like I've said from the beginning, a “body” does not have to resemble anything we've ever seen, or can even understand. But it stands to reason that if ANYTHING is unique from other things that are SIMILAR to it, then there is something that contains THIS UNIQUE thing and keeps it separate from the OTHER SIMILAR things.
Look at it this way JA. There cannot be more than one thing ever if there is not a body separating one from the other. If no “body”, then the two things are really one thing. That includes thoughts, prayers, and whatever else exists in quantities of more than one.
See if you, Shimmer and Gene can follow this. You don't have to agree with it, but I see no other way:
We know that before God created Jesus, He was all that existed. At that time, God would not have had a body at all, because He was everthing, everywhere all the time. BUT……….
As soon as God created Jesus, there were two beings in existence. So let's say Jesus existed right smack dab in the middle of what used to be ONLY the being of God. At this point, God is still going on infinitely forever in all directions out from Jesus. But the being of God no longer takes up the space that is now the being of Jesus. So whatever space the being of Jesus is taking up is his body. And God's body would then still be unlimited in all directions out from Jesus, but His body would have the “opposite” form around the body of Jesus. So where ever the body of God came into contact with the body of Jesus, God's body would have a shape, or form. Like Jesus was the center piece of a puzzle that went outward forever, and God was all the other pieces surrounding him.
Anyway, I hope you understand this analogy. The bottom line is that there cannot possibly be two things unless they have bodies to separate them from each other. If they do not, then they are not two things, but one. That includes spirits and thoughts.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2010,12:15) Mike………..It is stored in our cells as information it stays there and can be increased or decreased by GOD
Hi Gene,Then if it is INSIDE our cells, it is not at the same time OUTSIDE our cells, right?
What is it that let's us know it's INSIDE and not OUTSIDE?
Gene, even radio waves and sound waves have bodies. There is space where they are and space where they are not. That “line” between the two is the body of the wave.
If I thump a bass drum and we graph it's outermost reaches on a chart, then you would be able to physically see with your eyes a representation of the body of that particular sound wave. You cannot see it with your own eyes nor can you touch it, but science now has instruments through which we can map out the extent of the body of that wave and then look at a visible representation of that body.
Hey Gene, read the purple part of my post to JA and let me know what you think. Picture the “puzzle” that I mention and see if it makes sense to you. Don't get all hung up on the Jesus created first thing for now – there is a time and a place for everything, and this is neither.
I'm curious if you can understand that if there is two of anything at all, there must also be a body separating one from the other. Can you grasp this understanding? If there is no body, then there aren't really two things, but one.
peace and love,
mikeJA,
Sometimes I listen to near death experiences and from what they say that experience them is that they see themselves as having bodies but they are somewhat different. For instance they can take their arm and it can go through their bodies. I picture something like a hologram.Interesting thoughts !
Heres mine….
All things created on earth has form. What we can see in the heavens…planets etc has form. Otherwise is darkness or light or air……….God is everywhere…………So if God is everywhere how could He have a form, or else God couldnt be everywhere and but could only be in one place.
Maybe it's like a brand name stamped on all of it's products. God owns all. So everything has His 'stamp' on it or in it. It has power, so each of us can pray, or God can work with and through us………..So God is all in all or WILL BE all in all…………In scripture God can work through 'forms'. Jesus spoke the words of the Father, we can speak the words of the Father. We can “hear” the Father, we can “see” the Father, and the more we are obediant to Him the closer we become.
It says that when we die our bodies return to the dust, our thoughts cease and we know nothing.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
So the spirit returns to God, not our body or form. That has perished and returned to the dust.
The way that I see it, we are like a car……….The car has a body, and it has an engine, it has fuel, it has oil and other liquids. It has lines and wires, wheels and so on to make it move. But it has to have a driver as well to make it go and to control it……….So, we have a body, legs, arms, muscles etc, we have the lines and wires…blood vessels, nerves etc, we have the engine which would be the heart and other vital organs. We have the petrol oil and liquids which are blood, water, and food. But the driver…….this would be our mind, and our feelings wouldnt it ? Maybe what is spoken of in Orthodoxy…nous or the spirit (The 'eyes of the heart')
Anyway, does God have a form of some sort ? I would have to say from what I think I know, then probably NO. Because God is or will be 'all in all' as I said it couldnt be, scipture say's God is Spirit………But Jesus…. He is the firstborn from the dead. He was risen from the dead in a NEW spiritual BODY, Jesus is different.
Dont you think ? (JA) Scripture seems to say Jesus has a body, a spiritual one…. What do you think ?
Shimmer………….Your example is good, except the one about the Brand (ON) the Box i think the box is the body and what is inside it that can't be seen, is the Spirit. A Spirit is simply (intellect) and (ALL) Intellect always existed , it is simply shared with all things that has spirit (IN) it. God is pure Spirit and can live (in) bodies with Our Spirit, He truly was (IN) Jesus that is why Thomas said My Lord (AND) my GOD he can to understand that God was truly (IN) Jesus. GOD can and Does cohabit in all bodies and these bodies are called Organic bodies, containing both water and Spirit. Spirit seen to need moisture to find rest , because an Unclean spirit goes about in (ARID) or dry places looking for rest, it is like thought it is useless unless it has a body to animate and control, so it seem to be with all spirit (intellect). Spirit does not have a body it only exists (in) bodies. As you brought out when a man dies his thought Parish, he has not conciseness, it is a if he or she never existed and they will remain that way for ever unless God resurrects a new body and add spirit back into it again. I believe all of our DNA is stored by GOD and he can recreate our exact same bodies and add back those portion of intellect we had in the past and we will again then become a living Soul again. Spirit is useless without a body it can animate . God created things to live in and is the life force of all things that has life. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 16 2010,09:16) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 16 2010,09:03) Does the wind have a body?
Does the wind have a form?
Both questions are quite noddy
Think very hard…yes, you getting warm.The wind is like Spirit
'It blows where it wills'
The Scriptures doth say it.
Ethereal force or a body it fills.The form of the wind, what doth this mean?
What other than 'Essence', a thing not seen.
even toward 'manner' or 'mode' you could lean,
But not like 'Matter' that we can touch and preen.Scriptures says there's a type of body in heaven,
But i think it's talking about Christ after he is risen.
There's certainly bodies in human form
And this how it is spoken of, ere the norm.Flesh and blood is body, given to man,
It can't be in heaven, no way it can!
For heaven is ethereal, a Spiritual realm,
With Angels and Jesus, and God at its helm.
JA In1Cr 15:35 ¶ But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Peace Irene
Wow, the different kinds of understanding of what a Spirit is. But whoever does not agree with that it also has a body is wrong according to Scripture…..JA for you beware of what you believe, you are going against plain written Scripture….1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Irene
Hi Gene, I never mentioned a box at all. I meant that God is in all. Gods “signature” is on all because God created all, and all things exist through him, and through Christ who keeps all things together, and keeps all things going, thats what I meant.
God is everywhere….
…the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him.
—2 Chr. 2:6Where could I go to escape your spirit?
Where could I flee from your presence?
If I climb the heavens, you are there,
there too, if I lie in Sheol.
If I flew to the point of sunrise, or westward across the sea
your hand would still be guiding me, your right hand holding me.
—Ps. 139.7-10Do I not fill heaven and earth? It is Yahweh who speaks. —Jer. 23.24
If these keep silence, the stones will cry out. —Lk. 19.40
Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him. —Jn. 1.2
In him we live, and move, and have our being…. —Acts 17.28
For from him, and through him and to him are all things. —Rm. 8.36
There is one God who is father of all, over all, through all and within all. —Eph. 4.6
Quote:
The Greek Church Fathers referred to the transcendence of God as God's “essence” (ousia) and the immanence of God as his “energies” (energeia). In 553, at the Second Council of Constantinople, the universal Church proclaimed a panentheistic vision of the Trinity, developed from St. Paul's writing in Ephesians: “There is One God and Father from whom all things are, one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are.” God is in all things, for they spring from him, and all things are in God, for they subsist in him, yet he transcends all as well as emanates in all.
The Breastplate
St. PatrickI arise today, through the strength of Heaven:
light of Sun, brilliance of Moon, splendour of Fire,
speed of Lightning, swiftness of Wind, depth of Sea,
stability of Earth, firmness of Rock.Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me,
Christ beneath me, Christ above me, Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ in breadth, Christ in length, Christ in height,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of every man who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me, Christ in every ear that hears me.This is all amazing that anyone can think that a Spirit has a body when the whole point of being a Spirit,the whole pleasure of being 'intge Spirit' is that you have no restrictions like that of one with a body…
What this all shows is that the level of wisdom and understanding and Holy Spirit revelation is very sadly lacking in ones here who claim to be Scripturally informed.
Even the most obvious Scriptural utterings are amazingly misunderstood, let alone the higher level aspects.
Some are just stubborn…some are just lead by a spirit of stupor, some are genuinely ignorant, yet others are deliberately and willfully mislead.
Each of you who read this please identify yourself from the above and take steps to remedy your views and thoughts.Why are you here posting what you think should be Spiritual and Scriptural matters concerning God Almighty, Jesus Christ and the testamony of God sent with Christ concerning the redemption of man and the revelation of who God the Father is and his plan for mankind, all accomplished through the life, dead, and rising from the dead, and establishment of Christ as King over all, and the final new world order.
To all, who will volunteer to create a new thread: “What was God's original plan for mankind …from the point of view of 'if Adam had not sinned'?”
Please think about it….'if Adam had NOT sinned'….
What did Jesus accomplish such that God called him, as a MAN inthe Flesh, 'You are My Son', and , 'I will be to you as a Father'Remember that whatever Jesus was in Heaven before …he EMPTIED HIMSELF of it and became FULLY MAN in the NATURE of ADAM, and ADAM was A SINLESS Son of God, so don't take Jesus being 'Son of God' in the flesh as meaning anything other than 'Sinless'. Remember, even Jesus himself said to his detractors, 'What of it, did not God himself call others '[Sons of God]' who were [Sinless in his eyes] having receive His word and walked in His ways.'
What did Jesus accomplish that he is now both Flesh and Spirit, a Spirit with body, the first 'Spirit with body' of many others to come.Hi All
Thanks for all of your thoughts on this subject. I'm with Irene and the scriptures. Angels are spirits, and angels have spiritual bodies according to 1 Cor 15.
From my owned flawed logic, I also can't see how two things could ever exist without something that separates one from the other. If there is no separation between the two things, then those two things would “mix” together and remain ONE thing.
Shimmer, good scriptures.
I believe that while we all live because of a “loan” of spirit from God, He Himself exists in heaven just like Jesus said. To say “God is everywhere and we live in Him” is a poetic way of saying without God, no one or nothing would even be here. His Spirit can search the deepest reaches of a man's heart, but the being of God Almighty is not “physically” IN the man's heart.One last thought before I leave this thread for awhile:
The place where God was said to visit with Aaron and Moses was called “the Most Holy”. Why? If God is LITERALLY EVERYWHERE AT ONCE, then He would equally be in the Most Holy and the holes the Israelites dug to defecate into. I don't ever want to think of my Creator being buried along with human waste in a hole in the ground.
Also, the ground around the burning bush would not have been any holier than the rest of the ground on earth if God was equally everywhere all the time.
peace and love to you all,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 30 2010,10:18) This is all amazing that anyone can think that a Spirit has a body when the whole point of being a Spirit,the whole pleasure of being 'intge Spirit' is that you have no restrictions like that of one with a body…
So JA, if you were spirit, do you think you could be in AZ talking to me at the same time you're in a meeting at God's throne at the same time you're under the earth talking to Abraham in Sheol at the same time you're shooting pool with “Lucifer” at the same time your effortlessly gliding througn galaxy after galaxy………….and so on and so on.In other words, if you are spirit, are you EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2010,02:58) Irene………….The (IT) IS TALKING ABOUT THE BODY THAT IS THE (IT). peace and love…………………………………………..genw
Gene1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Yes it is; “it” refers to our natural body, “it” has to be sown, buried at death, first before “it” can be raised a spiritual body.
Georg
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2010,17:30) Hi All Thanks for all of your thoughts on this subject. I'm with Irene and the scriptures. Angels are spirits, and angels have spiritual bodies according to 1 Cor 15.
From my owned flawed logic, I also can't see how two things could ever exist without something that separates one from the other. If there is no separation between the two things, then those two things would “mix” together and remain ONE thing.
Shimmer, good scriptures.
I believe that while we all live because of a “loan” of spirit from God, He Himself exists in heaven just like Jesus said. To say “God is everywhere and we live in Him” is a poetic way of saying without God, no one or nothing would even be here. His Spirit can search the deepest reaches of a man's heart, but the being of God Almighty is not “physically” IN the man's heart.One last thought before I leave this thread for awhile:
The place where God was said to visit with Aaron and Moses was called “the Most Holy”. Why? If God is LITERALLY EVERYWHERE AT ONCE, then He would equally be in the Most Holy and the holes the Israelites dug to defecate into. I don't ever want to think of my Creator being buried along with human waste in a hole in the ground.
Also, the ground around the burning bush would not have been any holier than the rest of the ground on earth if God was equally everywhere all the time.
peace and love to you all,
mike
hi alli just want to ad that in the temple ,in the holy side there was a light burning, if God was present or not,
i forgot the name of the lamp,help….
Pierre
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