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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,15:40) Shimmer, You must either show the verse where Jesus says spirits don't have “bodies”, or admit you're reading more into it than is there.
Luke 24…See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.So here it seems TO ME that Jesus is saying spirits dont have hands and feet like we do. And He would know, He was from ABOVE.
Before then Jesus said of the Father…
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.And Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15.
So there are some verses which show that
1) God is spirit, and
2) Spirit is invisible, and
3) Spirit has no body, as in hands feet etc as we doThis is from the words spoken by Jesus.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,15:40) Does an ocean have “hands and feet” Shimmer? NO. But is an ocean a BODY of water? YES. Do you get the point? A spirit's “body” might not look anything like we'd expect a body to look like, but it is most definitely a “spiritual body”, just like Paul CLEARLY says that “men of heaven” have.
One more thing Shimmer. What is it that distinguishes what is the being of Satan from what is the being of Gabriel?
Spirit beings appear to people in shape and form often as we are, thats true. But they had to. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God is invisible for example, so when we pray we dont see God with our eyes, but we see God with our 'eyes' which is different, we feel Gods presence, we know God hears us, we see things happen as evidence, just as we see with creation. God is evident in that.
AND one more thing, before I go!
If God had a body…
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/body.html
There are several logical flaws to the idea that God has a body of flesh and bone. The nature of the universe makes the idea of a human-looking God virtually impossible. Science tells us that the universe originally existed as nine tightly curled dimensions of space. The implications for the nature of God are obvious. God, who created the universe, must exist in at least one extra dimension above that of the universe in order to have created it. A three dimensional being cannot create a nine dimensional universe and have any ability to control it. This means that God, must consist of at least 10 dimensions, and could not exist solely in a three dimensional form (e.g., a human-like body).
If God has a human form, how can He, as a 6 foot high body, control the universe. He would be totally dwarfed by the immensity of the universe, being at least 1025 times smaller than His own creation. In fact, the Bible explicitly states that the entire universe cannot contain God:
But who is able to build Him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him?… (2 Chronicles 2:6)
OK, Goodnite.
Shimmer,
You area blast…this that you posted is exactly what i've been saying….except the nine dimensions, i said seven dimensions, but, hey ho, who's arguing?
Also, i didn't get my info from the internet…i got it from Holy Spirit revelation.Shimmer, Mikeboll says you are losing support for me…remember that i post simply for truth, from whomever it comes from…so i don't need a personal hareem of followers…but 'to as many as believe, to them will be given the gift…', and, 'after that, many fell away and did not follow him anymore'.
So, if they said this of Christ, who was showing them pure 100% truth, even to the extent of crucifying him for saying it, what then should i expect from these to me…should i be more holy than Christ?But Shimmer, thanks for the post.
Only one thing…i think the universe is a little bit bigger than 1025 times larger than a 6ft tall God, Perhaps!!!
And, the universe cannot contain God,….because…It is God that Contains the Universe….And JA, your not losing my support, why do people think this ? You know more than me, I listen to what you say.
Shimmer,
You sure have the Holy Spirit…and i knew you in Spirit…
I only read you previous posts on page 30 after i had replied to the one on page 31.
You have trounced all of us…'you have become more righteous than the rest of your brethren' and God has blessed you and called you 'Begotten'.
Thank you Shimmer….'When we last met, you were the paduwan Jedi learner, and I was the master. Now you are the master'…'And as you strike me down, Shimmer, I become stronger than you could ever imagine'
That is Science fiction taking it's cue from Scripture….
Satan taking over from Jesus, killing him…and by his death at the hands of Satan, Jesus becomes a Spirit body that is more powerful than Satan could ever have imagined.
Did Jesus not say, 'I must go away, for unless i go away the Spirit of Truth cannot come, whom i will send from the father…for he has put ALL THINGS (HIS Power and Authority) into my hands. Yet 'all things' did not include Satan's power and authority, Satan's rulership over the earth and it's inhabitants. For that, Jesus Christ is sat in kingship, waiting until until ALL things…all powers, rulerships and authorships, are brought under his control. (Viz, 'All' doesn't always mean 'ALL' but must be read in context)1 Corinthians 15:35-49++ sums it all up very neatly. There are different kinds of bodies, animal, flesh, birds, men, terrestial and celestial…at no point does it say, 'Spiritual' until verse 44 where it clearly distinguishes the 'fleshly body' from the 'Spiritual body'..the 'natural body' is subject to corruption, the 'Spiritual body' is not. It is immortal.
Now, i know Mike is straining at putting a shell, a container around the Spiritual body, likening it to earthly bodies…i am urging Mike to see that having a 'container' for the Spirit, for the free spirit, cannot be.
The earthly body, …is …the container for the spirit of man, but that container is corruptable. The true Spirits is not contained…and is incorruptable…Energy and Power cannot be corrupted…it is those who misuse it who are corrupted but the Spirit…the force, power, energy…itself is not only omnipresent and omnipotent (but not omniScient….that comes from the intellect given by God, therefore even Jesus was not omniscient).The Spirit, is not a body of Matter, has no Mass, therefore occupies no Space…
This is what Mikeboll cannot understand…and refuses to believe in his lack of understanding….Spirit does not occupy space, any space. It is silly (opening two words of 1 Corinthians 15:36) to think of Angels viying for physical space to stand in Heaven. It is silly to think of Angels 'rushing around' the earth like Mercury/Hermes, delivering messages from the Gods with little wings on his legs and helmet as propellors, or they 'need' swords, and bow and arrows, in heaven…even these should show Mike that such things are figurative and Symbolic for the era. Who would fight today with bow and arrow, or a sword? 'Indiana Jones' would just wip out a pistol, sneer, and just shoot him dead. Or Crocodile Dundee would slowly draw out a huge machete, saying, 'Call that a weapon?' and Darft inVader would 'shhhhumpt' out a laser sword, saying, 'Your powers are weak, old Angel!!'
And who would uses horses against armoured Tanks with satelite guided vapourising exocet missiles?What does it mean in 2 Corinthians 3:3, 'The epistle of Christ…written not in ink (Physical and visible), but by the Spirit of the living God….on tablets of flesh, that is, our heart.
Do you, Mike, suppose that the Spirit has written a physical message on our hearts? Perhaps Dr Crippin or Hare and Burke were in the market for searching for such a message? Or perhaps it is not a physical nor visible, but ethereal writing, eh?
Also, verse 6: '…not the letter (The physical and tangible) but the Spirit (the intangible) meaning, The Letter of the law gives guidance but 'kills' fluid action by making it rigid. But the Spirit of the law gives life, fliud interpretation:You must not cross the double white lines…this is good, as it goes…but what if there was no other way…'use caution and wisdom' and cross the line. Don't stand there saying, 'the law says we mustn't cross the line, so i'm going to stay here forever!'What does it mean in Romans 8:9, 'for you are not in the flesh but in the spirit', if Spirit is no different to flesh, what is the point?
How is the Spirit of God omnipresent and omnipotent and omniscient, if it is in a contained body? Does it divide itself up a billion times a billion times to present itself, once to each believer? So where is the central control for this billion times billion individual bodied spirit? But, no. It is ONE Spirit administering a billion times a billion believers all at the same time and throughtout all time, even to time past (As in preaching to those in the time of Noah who did not have nor know the law), and time future (preparing thema place).Read Acts 28:23-31.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2010,03:09) AND one more thing, before I go! If God had a body…
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/body.html
There are several logical flaws to the idea that God has a body of flesh and bone. The nature of the universe makes the idea of a human-looking God virtually impossible. Science tells us that the universe originally existed as nine tightly curled dimensions of space. The implications for the nature of God are obvious. God, who created the universe, must exist in at least one extra dimension above that of the universe in order to have created it. A three dimensional being cannot create a nine dimensional universe and have any ability to control it. This means that God, must consist of at least 10 dimensions, and could not exist solely in a three dimensional form (e.g., a human-like body).
If God has a human form, how can He, as a 6 foot high body, control the universe. He would be totally dwarfed by the immensity of the universe, being at least 1025 times smaller than His own creation. In fact, the Bible explicitly states that the entire universe cannot contain God:
But who is able to build Him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him?… (2 Chronicles 2:6)
OK, Goodnite.
shimmerwhy are you stating what as never been said??
God as not a body of flesh and bone ,or that sort of body,what we saying is that all spirits have a body means a self contained form,that make a distinction to all the others,
Pierre
Exactly Pierre,
Shimmer, when did any of us EVER say God has a body of flesh and bone?
Stick to the issue Shimmer. Angels have wings, right? We don't have wings, but yet we have bodies.
Not only that, but angels DO have hands, because one of them picked up a hot coal and put it to Isaiah's mouth. Or was it Jeremiah? I don't remember right now.
These are Jesus' words Shimmer. “Spirits do not have flesh and bone.” The part about the hands was to show them he was the same Jesus who was crucified – not to say spirits don't have hands.
Like I said, you are reading too much into it.
This is what we know from scripture.
1. Angels ARE spirits.
2. Those in heaven have SPIRITUAL BODIES.Case closed. Spirits have bodies.
And why can't you or the great JA answer my simple question?
What is it that separates what is the being of Satan from what is the being of Gabriel?
You say JA is “knows more than you”?
Bummer. I don't follow a “man” Shimmer. I follow God. His words are written plainly for all of us. But you would rather follow someone who consistently posts unscriptural things? Anything “more” that JA knows is the result of two things. One, he claims the understandings of men as scriptural truths. And two, you just haven't read the Book completely yet. For if you read the WHOLE Bible Shimmer, then there is no way JA “knows more than you”. The rest of what you posted is the understandings of men Shimmer. Follow them, or follow God.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,21:31) Shimmer, Mikeboll says you are losing support for me…
Yes, I thought she was showing signs of improvement. She cornered you, ever so politely, about 1 Cor 8:6 a while back.But apparently she's okay with “following” someone who is willing to ignore such clear scriptural truths in favor of his own “dream” about Satan.
I had hoped for better. But I'm not giving up. Maybe she'll someday come to realize that scripture outweighs the “intelligence” of JA every time.
JA, what is it that separates what is the being of Satan from what is the being of Gabriel?
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,23:17) Now, i know Mike is straining at putting a shell, a container around the Spiritual body, likening it to earthly bodies
Hey JA,Without a “container” then wouldn't every spirit be everywhere all the time?
38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
Now, what is it that you and Shimmer can't understand about this scripture?
mike
Mikeboll,
There is no separation between Spirits because Spirits don't have bodies that require separation.Spirits are just that, Spirits.
Take your famously earthly examples…two liquids, or two gasses….in separate containers…Spirits in bodies,.. “Spirits in the material [Body]”.
Now, pour those two spirits into another container, or even one Spirit into the other….can one liquid/gas be contained in the same vessel without dispelling any part of the original contained gas/liquid?
No…for chemically speaking, 'one volume of gas plus another volume of gas, at normal temperature and pressure is directly equivalent to two volumes of the combined gases'..
Oh, Mike, you did do Chemistry at School, didn't you?But even given that, the two gases/liquids more likely MIX with each other, they don't stay apart…why?
Because…there is actually a massive amount of space between each molecule of the gas/liquid that they easily move the vacant spaces…giving the appearance of mixing.So, if a 'body' of physical elements can intermingle without disrupting the original, and, in fact, with care, the originals can be extracted from each other, then what of 'immaterial', 'invisible', Spirit.
Can two Spirit 'Bodies' coExist in the same Space….easily…and since the 'Spirit bodies' are under the control of the 'intellect', just as a human body is under the control of the Spirit within, they can separate themselves when need be…in fact, with not even a thought required.
That is for you, Mikeboll.I say, not even that…there need not be any kind of body of a Spirit…this is the mythology that wallows in such things as 'Ghosts'…and even 'Ghosts' intermingle without disrupting their 'bodies'…else how do they pervade through walls and other barriers…?
Now, Mikeboll, keep telling me that i have not answered you.
Mike…………Question for you, when a unclean Spirit leaves a man< is that a body leaving the man, or (Intellect) is it a being existing in a Body of any kind. If we are to try the SPIRITS are we trying spirit Bodies in People or the word which proceed from their thoughts or intellects. If am has Spirits in Him does He have Bodies (IN) Him , When Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) Him was there anther BODY of Some kind (IN) Him. Thoughts or intellects do not have any kind of bodies Do they?.
peace and love……………………………………..gene
Mikeboll,
You are the true example of the deluded spirit, unblessed with the spirit of stupor.
The quote from 1 Corinthians, is in no way talking of Spiritual bodies….what is wrong with you…are you trully a dullard…
Stop straining at the quote. Read it again…it speaks of 'Flesh of men, animals, fish, birds,…terrestial bodies (of the earth) and celestial bodies (of the heavens…space…sun, moon, stars) and each has a different type of body….no more…full stop….
You deliberately stop at the words 'heavenly bodies and earthly bodies', faling to further quite the 'Sun, Moon and Stars' which is what the author is indicating by 'heavenly…celestial' bodies.Why Mike, Why?…please don't answer… Everyone can see why…
Please stop it.
Well, JA, first and foremost, you did not answer the scripture I posted all pretty in blue.
Who owns these “heavenly bodies” that Paul speaks of JA?
Secondly, are you saying that each individual spirit is a conglomeration of many spirits? Yes, molecules are small and there are spaces in between them. But each molecule has a BODY, doesn't it? It is what separates the molecule from the “massive vacant spaces” between them, right?
Now, what is it that separates what is the being of Satan from what is the being of Gabriel? Answer this one DIRECTLY JA. Then I will stop asking it. That's how it is supposed to work in a discussion. One asks a question and…………are you ready for this part?………….the other one ACTUALLY ANSWERS THE QUESTION.
Here's another. How could Satan say he had been roaming the earth to and fro? What “membrane” is it that kept Satan on the earth, but not everywhere else at that time?
Think, man, think.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 29 2010,03:22) Mikeboll, You are the true example of the deluded spirit, unblessed with the spirit of stupor.
The quote from 1 Corinthians, is in no way talking of Spiritual bodies….what is wrong with you…are you trully a dullard…
Stop straining at the quote. Read it again…it speaks of 'Flesh of men, animals, fish, birds,…terrestial bodies (of the earth) and celestial bodies (of the heavens…space…sun, moon, stars) and each has a different type of body….no more…full stop….
You deliberately stop at the words 'heavenly bodies and earthly bodies', faling to further quite the 'Sun, Moon and Stars' which is what the author is indicating by 'heavenly…celestial' bodies.Why Mike, Why?…please don't answer… Everyone can see why…
Please stop it.
You are truly desparate aren't you? You, my friend are the “dullard”. In fact, I think “dullard” would be a step up for you.Let's try it again, shall we?
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
JA, think man, think! If there is a natural body, then there are also spiritual bodies. God give a body to EVERY seed according to His wishes. Now, what were you saying about the sun and the moon? Oh yeah, the sun also has a body, just like Paul implies. But wait………the sun is a flaming ball of gas – how can it have a body?
And that folks, is how the dull mind of JA the Great works.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2010,03:21) Mike…………Question for you, when a unclean Spirit leaves a man< is that a body leaving the man, or (Intellect) is it a being existing in a Body of any kind. If we are to try the SPIRITS are we trying spirit Bodies in People or the word which proceed from their thoughts or intellects. If am has Spirits in Him does He have Bodies (IN) Him , When Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) Him was there anther BODY of Some kind (IN) Him. Thoughts or intellects do not have any kind of bodies Do they?. peace and love……………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,You bring up a good point. Let's work through it together.
If a spirit is inside a man, then what is it that keeps the spirit INSIDE him, but not OUTSIDE him? Is it the man's flesh body that is able to contain the spirit? Obviously not, for the spirit can enter him and exit him at will, right?
Now, picture this. Legion was in the man. There had to be some “container” that let Legion be ONLY inside that one man, and not also inside Jesus and the others, right? That container is a body. Furthermore, since Legion was made of many demons all cohabitating within the man, why didn't they all just mix together as one “combined” spirit being? How were they able to keep their separate identities within the man?
Legion didn't say, “I am big because many of us melded together”, did he? No, he said “there are MANY OF US in this man”. If there is not a body of sorts that separated one of the spirits from the others, then Legion couldn't have said “we are many”, right?
So not only did their bodies enable their beings to be only inside the man and not outside of him, but those bodies also separated the many within the man from each other, enabling them to remain “many” instead of “one great combination of many”.
Also, when Jesus allowed them to go into the pigs, what “container” was is that signified that they were no longer INSIDE the man, but now in the pigs?
You see Gene. There has to be some “perimeter” that distinguishes where the spirits ARE from where they ARE NOT at any given moment. At first they were NOT in the pigs………why? Then they WERE in the pigs, but NOT in the man………why?
If there is no “outer perimeter', then Legion would have “left”
to the pigs but still be inside the man at the same time. He would also have been inside Jesus and the others, all around the earth, under the earth, in the ocean, in heaven, and on Mars all at the same time.Kathi brought up a good point. What does it mean when it says a spirit LEFT someone or someplace? If there is nothing separating where he IS from where he IS NOT, then how in the world can he “LEAVE” someone or someplace? You can't “LEAVE” if you are everywhere all the time. And if you are NOT everywhere all the time, then there is something distinguishing where you ARE from where you ARE NOT. That, my friend, is a “body”.
JA cannot grasp this concept Gene. Can you?
peace and love,
mikeTo All………..Here is something to think about, let take a computer as an (example).. The computer is the Body lets say, and the Brain in it the Hard Drive is the brain, now the information stored in the Hard Drive or brain if you will, is data it is a string of 1 and 0'S strung in different strings called bites, Now do these Bites have bodies (no) they do not they simply are Magnetic impressed charges that give off the 1and 0's needed to form data string. To me it is very similar to us the stored information stored in our brains are electronically stored in files and even our blood has these strings of data working in them called Chromosomes , but require a body of some kind to animate or work through(cells) for example. So in a sense we are much like a computer. Information is feed into us and stored in our brains and begins to drive our thinking rather good or evil . But the good part is it can all be changed by God and our thinking can be corrected , just as a computers date can be erased and new data installed into it.
Isa 1:18 Come now and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
As new data comes into our thinking old data is being replaces we are changing or evolving in our thinking. It Say's ” WE ARE BEING WASHED BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD OF GOD”. Same thing as removing old bad sinful data and replacing it with new clean and better data (thinking). IMO
May GOD Bless you all……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2010,03:59) Bites have bodies (no) they do not they simply are Magnetic impressed charges that give off the 1and 0's needed to form data string.
Gene,What would happen if the magnetic charge was emitted everywhere all the time? Would the computer work that way? Or does it depend on a certain amount of magnetic charge being emitted at a precise location at the precise time?
So when that magnetic charge hits ONLY the precise place, what is it that keeps it from hitting all the other places at the same time?
It is regulated by the amount of power used to form that one magnetic charge, right? The more power used, the bigger the “body” of that one magnetic charge becomes, right? If you direct less power to it, the “body” of that particular charge is smaller, right?
In other words Gene, the whole computer and the whole room it is in is not magnetically charged. Only a precise part of the motherboard or whatever, right? So what is it that determines that “this” precise location receives the charge but the chair you're sitting in doesn't? That charge has an outer perimeter that determines that the charge will be “here” but not “there”. That outer perimeter of the charge is it's “body” Gene.
mike
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