- This topic has 5,411 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,16:03) Terricca…………So if GOD as you say formed the universe at (HIS) command , then where is Jesus who you say created everything both visible and inviable. Is he your GOD that formed it or not, are you still a trinitarian, i know you believe Jesus preexisted as they do and now you seem to believe He was or IS the CREATOR GOD. And let not forget Isaiah44:24……….Thus says the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that Makes (ALL) things; that stretches forth the Heaven (ALONE); that spreads abroad the earth (BY) (MYSELF). Terrica what part of BY MYSELF and ALONE you cant' understand. Now are we to believe what you quote from a text that uses a word (BY) in the GREEK that (IS) translated 50 different ways in Greek scripture like the word (Through), I believe i posted over 50 some odd different translation of that word. I”ll believe what the Hebrew Text say over the Trinitarians version of the Gnostic forcing the text to mean what contradicts the Old Testament. If GOD says he created every thing (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) i will just believe that thanks. You can twist scripture all you want and believe what ever you want. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Genefirst we ,me never said that it is not God that created,the scriptures just says that all was created trough Christ,
how this is done ? this is not said,but my faith tells me that latter i will know.
secondly;everything is from God,and this Jesus never was opposed to ,he himself always claim that whatever he did was from the father,
so you do not have an argument there.
Pierre
To All…………….Here is something you may find interesting , i am not saying it is fact so don't go nuts Mike, But Jesus said something interesting , When he said you must be Born again, and He said you must be Born of Water and spirit. Question is, why Water, some think it means baptism, but i do not think that . What i think it means is Water is what is in all things that have life in it. Nothing exists as a being without moisture that forms a body of some kind. science have not found any Life that is not organic in form which mean it contains water and cellular structure. When Jesus said the unclean spirit leaves a man it goes in (ARID) Places Arid meaning dry or lacking moisture. Just something to think about, would like more input thought.
Peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,03:15) You have not answered me whether Jesus went back to his non-human Spirit body or glorified human body with holes and wounds so that Thomas could insert his fingers and test?
Hi Adam,I never saw you ask that question of me. Of course he went back to his spiritual body. Read 1 Cor 15.
And we've talked about this before Adam. The believers section of this forum belongs to those of us who believe in both the OT AND the NT.
Bod believes in ONLY the OT. You need to take those beliefs of yours over to where he is.
Adam, I like you. I have no problem with you whatsoever. But when your explanation for the scriptural things we're discussing keeps going back to the NT being a “myth”, then you have no business in this section of the forum.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,05:11) Poor desperate Mike,
You can't compare a body of water which is not free Spirit, with free spirit energy.
And even a 'body' of gas is not 'free' but contained in a body of air,
Hmmmmmmmmm……….JA, you call me “poor” and “desparate”. But every thing we've ever discussed ended up with me claiming the things that are scriptural right from the start……and you slowly losing your following.
You talk “smoothly” and “intelligently” JA. You are a master at “the spin”. You are an expert “slanter”. But surely you must know that scripture will win our over your imagination and your best efforts every time, right?
Many here already consider you a fool JA. I've heard it straight from their mouths. Do yourself a favor and start basing your understanding around scriptures instead of the other way around. You will again find “followers” if you do that.
Your biggest fan is slowly beginning to choose scripture over the “intelligence of JA” – and good for her! That's exactly how it should be.
Now, about the substance of your post, you said:
Quote And even a 'body' of gas is not 'free' but contained in a body of air, So you agree that both gas and air have “bodies”. Good, you are on your way. Now all you have to realize is that if there wasn't a “body” separating what makes up the being of Satan from what makes up the being of Gabriel, they would both be an intermix of spirit. They would be the same being if they didn't have bodies separating them.
Are you getting it yet? If Satan didn't have some sort of “body” that contained the being of Satan inside of it, then Satan would be everywhere all the time. At the farthest, outermost reaches of the being of Satan, there is a body that contains him within it. There MUST be.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,07:01) Mike knows that i am right but cannot stand knowing he has been bested. He has had this problem fir a long time and it is why his debates and discussions go on for so long, in fact, never ending…everlasting….
I feel he will be lost if he were to ever end a debate or discussion.
Hi Pierre,It's sad really, isn't it? To see someone so headstrong and convinced that his intelligence outweighs the words of God Himself is a travesty.
And it's actually quite pathetic that when faced with the scriptures, he would rather call names and sling insults instead of just believing what the scriptures say.
He lost the only debate we've ever had within one page, but talks about it as if HE is the one who should be gloating!
He refused to answer even the most simply stuctured questions I could come up with in the “superior Jesus” discussion, yet talks as if he's teaching us better than the scriptures can. 
But he loses out to the scriptures we post every day – and still cannot concede. Instead, he uses words like “poor Mike” and “desparate Mike” and “Mike and Terra are in “fairy-land”. He uses words like “bested” in reference to me and afterward admittedly states that he lost our debate.
Poor, desparate, stuck and bested JA indeed.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,09:03) Terricca…………So if GOD as you say formed the universe at (HIS) command , then where is Jesus who you say created everything both visible and inviable
Gene,Why is it that you are eager to believe the “all things came FROM God” part of 1 Cor 8:6, but refuse to acknowledge the “all things came THROUGH Jesus” part?
You can't logically base your beliefs on only half of the scriptures, can you? You would then be like Adam, who only wants to believe half of them.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,09:29) To All…………….Here is something you may find interesting , i am not saying it is fact so don't go nuts Mike, But Jesus said something interesting , When he said you must be Born again, and He said you must be Born of Water and spirit. Question is, why Water, some think it means baptism, but i do not think that . What i think it means is Water is what is in all things that have life in it. Nothing exists as a being without moisture that forms a body of some kind. science have not found any Life that is not organic in form which mean it contains water and cellular structure. When Jesus said the unclean spirit leaves a man it goes in (ARID) Places Arid meaning dry or lacking moisture. Just something to think about, would like more input thought. Peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene
Not a bad thought Gene, but we already ARE made of water and spirit, right? We wouldn't have to be “born” again to end up made of what we already are made of, would we?That's just the first thought that popped into my mind when I read your post. Like you, I'm not claiming anything as fact.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,17:14) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,07:01) Mike knows that i am right but cannot stand knowing he has been bested. He has had this problem fir a long time and it is why his debates and discussions go on for so long, in fact, never ending…everlasting….
I feel he will be lost if he were to ever end a debate or discussion.
Hi Pierre,It's sad really, isn't it? To see someone so headstrong and convinced that his intelligence outweighs the words of God Himself is a travesty.
And it's actually quite pathetic that when faced with the scriptures, he would rather call names and sling insults instead of just believing what the scriptures say.
He lost the only debate we've ever had within one page, but talks about it as if HE is the one who should be gloating!
He refused to answer even the most simply stuctured questions I could come up with in the “superior Jesus” discussion, yet talks as if he's teaching us better than the scriptures can. But he loses out to the scriptures we post every day – and still cannot concede. Instead, he uses words like “poor Mike” and “desparate Mike” and “Mike and Terra are in “fairy-land”. He uses words like “bested” in reference to me and afterward admittedly states that he lost our debate.
Poor, desparate, stuck and bested JA indeed.
peace and love,
mike
Mikeyes that s the way it is,some people do not understand what they were saying last week ,and so show inconsistencies with there own believe,
this is unstable,and create arguments.
Pierre
Mikeboll,
Did i not tell you beforehand that the debate would be over in one page.So what are you saying… Evenwhen it was done just as i said you continued to argue… Your intelligence is so low it's surprising you don't manage to get out of school.
What happened, did they keep putting you back a year…every year…you need to WIN so desperately you plumb the depth of desparation.When i was telling you that KJ was right about 'Begotten' you were do desparate to that you weren't going to lose against him that your were prepared to use 'underhanded methods' to get around what he was saying….this is why i told you beforehand that i would be posting against you and sought your permission before i did post.
Your arrogance stance was this, 'Go ahead, what's the worst?'
This says, 'i know i'm wrong but so what'.So, Mikeboll. This is how you are…you have been beaten down so often in your life, you have grown a 'so what' attitude to truth against you…this has extended into a 'i will not be eaten again. I refuse to be beaten again'.
And this is apparent all over the forum. Check the threads…
'Mikeboll verses…everyone'
There is even a scripture verse for you: 'And his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him'We are discussing 'Spiritual bodies'.
Scriptures does not mention that Spirits have bodies…why? Because they don't….And as for followers…since when did i post for 'followers'. I post what i post for the revelation from the Holy Spirit.
It matters not if no one 'follows'…moreover, they do…so you are just posturing there…
Also, Shimmer is not against me…where do you see that…Shimmer asks questions…nothing wrong with that…how is that opposing or losing my support.What i find most frustrating from you is that you are earthbased. You cannot seem to understand that Jesus is continually refering to Spiritual matters…not earthly matters…and that, like you, is why many of his 'followers' fell away…they thought that the kingdom of God was a physically and earthly kingdom and was going to happen in their lifetime.
You, Mikeboll, must raise your thinking into the Spiritual realm and come out of the worldly realm.
If that is not possible for you, then don't discuss things that are above your understanding.
I say you are like a naive child trying to interject yourself into adult conversation.
You seem like a naive child, telling an adult that eggs come from a Supermarket. 'Yes, child, you can certain get (buy) [Chicken] eggs from a Supermarket…but…they ORIGINATE from a Chicken, a Hen…'.
'No, ' say the childish Mikeboll, 'they come from a Supermarket. I bought some yesterday…you don't know what you are talking about. Go to a Supermarket and see for yourself, mr smartypants!!'And as for Terra,
He just quotes Scriptures out of context….i don't even undersrand what he is posting half the time…and the other half itls just Scripture verses against thin air.
He just follows my post sniping …biting like a wounded animal snaps at anything near it thinking it is being attacked…natural animalistic defence behaviour…
Just Askin,
Listen long and be slow to anger and speak.
This is a lesson we would all do good to learn and God is able to change us to do it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,12:00) You talk “smoothly” and “intelligently” JA. You are a master at “the spin”. You are an expert “slanter”. But surely you must know that scripture will win our over your imagination and your best efforts every time, right? Many here already consider you a fool JA. I've heard it straight from their mouths. Do yourself a favor and start basing your understanding around scriptures instead of the other way around. You will again find “followers” if you do that.
Your biggest fan is slowly beginning to choose scripture over the “intelligence of JA” – and good for her! That's exactly how it should be.
Now, about the substance of your post, you said:
Quote And even a 'body' of gas is not 'free' but contained in a body of air, So you agree that both gas and air have “bodies”. Good, you are on your way. Now all you have to realize is that if there wasn't a “body” separating what makes up the being of Satan from what makes up the being of Gabriel, they would both be an intermix of spirit. They would be the same being if they didn't have bodies separating them.
Are you getting it yet? If Satan didn't have some sort of “body” that contained the being of Satan inside of it, then Satan would be everywhere all the time. At the farthest, outermost reaches of the being of Satan, there is a body that contains him within it. There MUST be.
mike
Mike, I dont follow what anyone says to me, I only follow what God shows me. I have debated with people for years now. All of these arguements here are stupid. They are all directed at JA. JA has my support. I dont know these things. But one thing I do know where you are wrong and JA is right is that God does NOT have a body as you say, and Angels do no have bodies as you say, WHY because scripture says that God and Angels are spirits and JESUS said spirits DONT have bodies.Poor, poor misguided and desparate JA. Let's all feel sorry for him together, shall we?
JA:
Quote Did i not tell you beforehand that the debate would be over in one page.
So what you're saying is that you knew you would lose before entering the debate, but you are getting the much needed feeling of “I was right” by losing the debate before we even finished one page? Pathetic! It's like you said to yourself, “I know I will lose, but I'm going to make sure I lose in one page only so I can be right in saying it will only take one page”. Yes JA, you surely can claim your “victory” because you made sure you lost the debate in one page! Wouldn't your mother be proud of you!JA:
Quote Your intelligence is so low it's surprising you don't manage to get out of school.
But wait a minute………….aren't I the one who WON our debate? Dang, I'd hate to be the one who lost a debate to the one with such low intelligence!JA:
Quote What happened, did they keep putting you back a year…every year…you need to WIN so desperately you plumb the depth of desparation.
Doesn't this more fit what YOU did by losing within one page because of YOUR desparation to “win” the right to brag about how you lost in one page……….just so you could be right about how many pages the debate took?JA:
Quote When i was telling you that KJ was right about 'Begotten' you were do desparate to that you weren't going to lose against him that your were prepared to use 'underhanded methods' to get around what he was saying
Never did and never will. I will “win” by using scriptures JA. For it is the truth, not me, who deserves a victory.JA:
Quote this is why i told you beforehand that i would be posting against you and sought your permission before i did post.
Your arrogance stance was this, 'Go ahead, what's the worst?'
No, my stance was: If KJ can't “beat” scripture, then what in the world would make JA think HE can? But back then, I didn't realize that your “intelligence” is greater than scripture itself.JA:
Quote This says, 'i know i'm wrong but so what'.
No. Again, this statement better fits you, who was willing to go into a debate knowing you were wrong before you entered it.JA:
Quote So, Mikeboll. This is how you are…you have been beaten down so often in your life, you have grown a 'so what' attitude to truth against you…this has extended into a 'i will not be eaten again. I refuse to be beaten again'.
Once again JA, you show that the things you say about others really represent yourself. I'm sorry people have beaten you down like a dog throughout your life. Why don't you try speaking the truth, then no one can ever beat you down.JA:
Quote We are discussing 'Spiritual bodies'.
Scriptures does not mention that Spirits have bodies…why? Because they don't….
Hmmmmm………….then who do the “spiritual bodies in heaven” that Paul mentions belong to? Who besides angels, Jesus and God would need a “spiritual body”? You do know that “spiritual” means “consisting of or pertaining to SPIRIT”, don't you?JA:
Quote And as for followers…since when did i post for 'followers'.
Then stop trying to “teach” Shimmer from “the world according to JA”. Teach her instead from scriptures, as Pierre and I do. In fact, she will hopefully soon start teaching YOU from scriptures.JA:
Quote they thought that the kingdom of God was a physically and earthly kingdom and was going to happen in their lifetime.
The Kingdom of God IS a physical place. It now exists in heaven, but someday we will worship God face to face also on the new earth. This is what the scriptures say, and I believe them with the faith and understanding of a child, not with the “intelligence” of the “wise and learned”.JA:
Quote If that is not possible for you, then don't discuss things that are above your understanding.
And that's all we're really saying to you JA. Stop spouting stuff that you know nothing about. Stick to the scriptures and stop trying to “KNOW” which “all” should be taken literally and which one shouldn't. Because you know that's all you have, right? Your only defense since this discussion began has been to claim “this word isn't really literal”. Maybe you should sit back for a while and just listen to those of us who are speaking scripturally. Then you won't be discussing things that are so far above your understanding, okay?JA:
Quote I say you are like a naive child trying to interject yourself into adult conversation.
YES! That's exactly what I meant to say above. Children like you should be seen and not heard until they are old enough to be off milk and on the
solid food of the scriptures.JA:
Quote And as for Terra, He just quotes Scriptures out of context….i don't even undersrand what he is posting half the time…and the other half itls just Scripture verses against thin air.
See JA, this is just another example. I probably learn more on this site from Pierre than I do from anyone else. You know why? Because he speaks from scriptural knowledge. Just because you are not intelligent enough to understand how the scriptures he quoted fit into the discussion does not mean he's quoting “scripture versus air”. I always seem to know which part of the scripture applies to the conversation and why he chose that particular scripture. Maybe there's something wrong with your naive child-like brain, huh?peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 28 2010,12:46) WHY because scripture says that God and Angels are spirits and JESUS said spirits DONT have bodies.
Jesus never said that Shimmer. Jesus said that spirits don't have “flesh and bone”.Luke 24:39 NIV
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”Who ever said a “body” must consist of flesh? They don't really consist of “bone” at all, unless you consider animals with exoskeletons to have “bodies of bone”.
Jesus didn't mention the word “body” at all……..at least not here in the scripture I think you are referring to. Is there another I'm forgetting?
A “body” of water does not consist of flesh Shimmer, but it's a “body” nonetheless, right?
So, now that you understand that scripture doesn't support you or JA, will you stand by and defend him still?
And please, if you say one thing about the way I just posted to him I think I will explode. You have defended and even supported him for months while he has talked like this to all of us. I've had enough. If it's insults and ridicules that he wants, then I'll start slinging them back at him and see how HE likes it. I've asked all of you to help me correct him about this abusive language – and a couple of you have made a “kind passing comment”. If he wants to talk trash, then I'll talk trash better. I will be like Paul. He said when talking to the Hebrews, he was a Hebrew. When talking to Gentiles, he was a Gentile. Well I've been talking to a very rude person for months and taking the “high road” as best I could. No more. If he wants to be rude to me and others, I will beat him at his own game. Just like I stomped him in our debate.
mike
Mike,
The verse you quoted, you forgot the rest of it…
Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, 'Peace — to you;' and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit. And he said to them, 'Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts? see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.' And having said this, he shewed to them the hands and the feet, and while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, he said to them, 'Have ye anything here to eat?' and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, and having taken, he did eat before them
So CLEARLY Jesus here is making it clealry known that Spirits dont have bodies………Spirits dont have HANDS AND FEET.
Wasnt it you who believed God had a body with hands, arms, feet etc ?
Scripture Mike says CLEARLY that God is Spirit, so therefore as Jesus said has no body as we have.
But as you can see, JESUS had a body so Jesus was risen in a body similar but different than what we have today. God and Angels however do not.
And thats what scripture says clearly
AHHHHHH! I just can't do it. I sincerely apologize to all who read my last post to JA.
I will not resort to the things he does anymore. I didn't like myself when I used to fight fire with fire, and I certainly don't want to revert to my old ways. I acted more like Satan with that last post than like Jesus. Something is seriously wrong with that.
JA, I'm sorry for the cruel things I said. Please forgive me.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 28 2010,13:34) Mike, The verse you quoted, you forgot the rest of it…
Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, 'Peace — to you;' and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit. And he said to them, 'Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts? see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.' And having said this, he shewed to them the hands and the feet, and while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, he said to them, 'Have ye anything here to eat?' and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, and having taken, he did eat before them
So CLEARLY Jesus here is making it clealry known that Spirits dont have bodies………Spirits dont have HANDS AND FEET.
Wasnt it you who believed God had a body with hands, arms, feet etc ?
Scripture Mike says CLEARLY that God is Spirit, so therefore as Jesus said has no body as we have.
But as you can see, JESUS had a body so Jesus was risen in a body similar but different than what we have today. God and Angels however do not.
And thats what scripture says clearly
Shimmer,You must either show the verse where Jesus says spirits don't have “bodies”, or admit you're reading more into it than is there.
Does an ocean have “hands and feet” Shimmer? NO. But is an ocean a BODY of water? YES.
Do you get the point? A spirit's “body” might not look anything like we'd expect a body to look like, but it is most definitely a “spiritual body”, just like Paul CLEARLY says that “men of heaven” have.
One more thing Shimmer. What is it that distinguishes what is the being of Satan from what is the being of Gabriel?
mike
What is this forum
And what does it do
I'll say what it does
Between believers or two
Who believe
In God the Father
In Jesus the Son
In the holy Spirit
In the last day's
In the return of the Lord
And what do they do ?
They debate over wordsJA dont fear
I havent left you,
You hear ?
This division
Over words
Dont let it be so
Please let it go
I want you to know
Although I may listen
Although I agree
With what others say
But nay
I have my belief
I take no side
Please let there be peace
Let us say yay
We know what we know
And only one knows
and that is above
And what is above'
Is higher than all
So let us stay
And let us pray
And dont let us stray
From what we had
Keep us strong
Amen.My gosh,
YOU were all causing me to SEEM LIKE I was going against JA, ganging up with you against him, well I assure you JA I have not done this,
So, dont worry. You know how I feel.
The problem here is debating…DISCUSSION is ALL it should be. You all – JustAskin….Mikeboll…Terrarica…You all believe exactly the same thing, the only difference is JA believes Jesus was begotten when He was risen from the dead AS SCRIPTURE SAYS so it seems he is only going with scripture. THEN JA believes Jesus was an Angel before coming here, I think t8 does too, am I wrong ? So then is the theory, the firstborn one….so it's something no-one else here agrees with, so if you think it's wrong then all who disagree need to kindly show JA how they think he is wrong,
Kindness always.
And JA you need to calm down as Kerwin has said. And watch what you say.We are all believers here. JA isnt one of those ones who insists he is right depite being shown over and over, not from what I can see. Show him and if he sees it he will agree with you maybe.
But divisions are happening, Terarica has taken sides against JA and then Ed stirs the pot and so on. But Mike and Terrarica, if you love him as you should then show him kindly, understand his mind is far more than ours, I mean I could never know all of that scientific stuff, or is it just me ?
But peace please, you three…four..or whatever ?
Show him kindly
And JA calm down, breathe….Back to the question of this thread, Do spirit beings and God have bodies ? NO. That really should be the end of it. Ask any Christian, ring any church Priest, Pastor, Bishop, whatever,,,and they will also say NO. I'm sure.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2010,15:35) AHHHHHH! I just can't do it. I sincerely apologize to all who read my last post to JA. I will not resort to the things he does anymore. I didn't like myself when I used to fight fire with fire, and I certainly don't want to revert to my old ways. I acted more like Satan with that last post than like Jesus. Something is seriously wrong with that.
JA, I'm sorry for the cruel things I said. Please forgive me.
peace and love,
mike
The forum does that Mike.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
