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Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2011,17:35) Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,22:42) Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2011,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,10:44) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2011,22:23) To all, Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Kerwindoes it say in the flesh ?
or you just suppose so?
Pierre
They were discussing Lazarus who had died and was resting in his grave at that time.What kind of resurrection did he undergo.
Kerwinwhen Jesus recall the soul of Lazarus into his body ,was that the last days?
as Martha saysPierre
I was not implying it was the time of the resurrection at that time. I was pointing out that Martha belied Jesus was speaking of the time of the resurrection when he stated that Lazarus would rise again. In other words she aw no visible difference between the two resurrections.
KerwinMartha just knew that there was a resurrection for all at the end this is scriptural,
so she was not expecting to see her brother back alive before then,
but Jesus show it that it will be a reality by resurrecting her brother now she would be convince that the resurrection told and written in scriptures was true,and will be true in time
because the revival of Lazarius will not bring him everlasting live ,so he ad to die again,after Christ had pay the ransom for our sinsPierre
Pierre,
Quote Kerwin Martha just knew that there was a resurrection for all at the end this is scriptural,
so she was not expecting to see her brother back alive before then,
but Jesus show it that it will be a reality by resurrecting her brother now she would be convince that the resurrection told and written in scriptures was true,and will be true in time
because the revival of Lazarius will not bring him everlasting live ,so he ad to die again,after Christ had pay the ransom for our sinsPierre
I just wanted to establish that the resurrection for all at the end is a resurrection of flesh and spirit.
Some here seem to believe different.
Mikeboll,
Your descent into the depths of the dark place is driving you crazy.Paul was talking to the CORINTHIANS – and called then 'Fools' – crazy man, are you saying that Pail was calling the Elect 'Fools'!
I see you post no proof of the 'What you have always been saying' – you, the man who needs to proved everything?!
'It is sown a NATURAL BODY… it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY'
Mike, where do you see the words 'Transformed before entering heaven' in any format here?
Mike, whiich of the examples of BODIES is the one Paul alludes to Spirit: The Fish? The Bird? The Animal? The Man? The Star? The Sun, the Moon?
Which one, Mikeboll64…You said that there are bodies in heaven before Jesus… You now that it is only God…or some nonsense (Check your own baloney!) – Man you are so confused – trapped by your own recipe for 'Spaghetti Baloneysi'!!!
Untangle your mess, Mike…
“Your powers (Of discernment) are weak, Old Man!!”
but…”The Farce is strong with you!”Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2011,03:10) Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,09:24) Onesimus was a slave and was in great sin and was figuratively 'Dead' on the streets of Rome having run away from his master.
Paul figuratively RAISED Onesimus from his dead state and gave him a SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Yay again, Istari! You have now shown your capability of knowing the difference between “figuratively dead” and literally dead; between “figuratively raised” and literally raised; between “figuratively begotten” and literally begotten.The trick now is for you to read the scriptures that tell of God SENDING His only begotten Son into the world in the first place. Start with John 1:14, which says John and the others beheld his glory as the only begotten from the Father. How could the Word have had on earth a glory of someone who, according to you, didn't even exist until after Jesus died?
Then go to John 3:16-18 and read how some people on earth had ALREADY been condemned for not believing in the only begotten Son who God gave because He loved the world so much.
Let me know if you still have problems after reading and figuring those two passages out, okay?
mike
Miikeboll64,
Are you both a Jew AND a Greek?
Did not the Jews ask Jesus how Abraham saw Jesus' day – and how long was Abraham dead before Jesus' – the Day of the Lord – yet Abraham 'saw' Jesus' day?Man, you thinking unwisely – your unnecessary and unrelenting desire for 'proof' is your HUGE unwitting stumbling block!
Worse, that you cannot admit when you are wrong… Mike, you are only making things worse for yourself….! Stop Now!!
Everyone – please pray for Mikeboll64 that he may receive a gift from the Holy Spirit – a Gift of SIGHT – as Saul did and became PAUL..
Just think: Mike has lost his Spiritual Sight: Truth has 'as-SAUL-ted' him But yet it is a good example of an ap-PAUL-ing event!.
Quote (Rena @ June 12 2011,20:06) Mike, Jesus is not 'alone as the only spirit body in heaven. The first resurrection of the dead has taken place already. And I believe that those who die don't wait in the grave they're taken up straight away.
Hi Kar,I partly agree. I believe that ONLY the elect who die for the sake of Jesus' name are taken up immediately. John says in Rev 6:9-11 that he saw the souls of those beheaded because of the testimony they maintained. They were asking how long they must wait to be avenged. (They were also given robes to wear on their apparently non-existent bodies.
)But for you to assume that Jesus and the others who were resurrected to a life in heaven are some kind of half/man-half/spirit beings who DO have bodies, while the others in heaven who have always been spirit beings do not, still leads me to ask again what I've asked before:
Kar, does it make sense to you that the one who rules over heaven (and those who have been resurrected since him) are constrained by bodies while the angels they rule over are unconstrained and “everywhere all the time”?
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ June 12 2011,21:12) I just wanted to establish that the resurrection for all at the end is a resurrection of flesh and spirit. Some here seem to believe different.
Hi Kerwin,I don't agree that those whom Kar and I were discussing, the ones who are “changed in the twinkling of an eye”, are resurrected in flesh, but in new spiritual bodies adapted to living in heaven.
That's just my opinion. Perhaps you have scripture that would enlighten me on the subject?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2011,06:55) Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2011,21:12) I just wanted to establish that the resurrection for all at the end is a resurrection of flesh and spirit. Some here seem to believe different.
Hi Kerwin,I don't agree that those whom Kar and I were discussing, the ones who are “changed in the twinkling of an eye”, are resurrected in flesh, but in new spiritual bodies adapted to living in heaven.
That's just my opinion. Perhaps you have scripture that would enlighten me on the subject?
peace,
mike
Mike Boll,I did not wish to extend my reasoning to the point of what kind of bodies enter heaven as of yet.
I believe it is wisest to first establish what kind of people rise up with in the final resurection.
From there we can hypothosize thether or not those bodies undergo a change when ascending to heaven.
I do acknowledge your opinion though.
Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2011,21:12) Pierre, Quote Kerwin Martha just knew that there was a resurrection for all at the end this is scriptural,
so she was not expecting to see her brother back alive before then,
but Jesus show it that it will be a reality by resurrecting her brother now she would be convince that the resurrection told and written in scriptures was true,and will be true in time
because the revival of Lazarius will not bring him everlasting live ,so he ad to die again,after Christ had pay the ransom for our sinsPierre
I just wanted to establish that the resurrection for all at the end is a resurrection of flesh and spirit.
Some here seem to believe different.
Kerwinat the resurrection you say that it be of flesh and spirit ,could you be more specific?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2011,11:04) Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2011,21:12) Pierre, Quote Kerwin Martha just knew that there was a resurrection for all at the end this is scriptural,
so she was not expecting to see her brother back alive before then,
but Jesus show it that it will be a reality by resurrecting her brother now she would be convince that the resurrection told and written in scriptures was true,and will be true in time
because the revival of Lazarius will not bring him everlasting live ,so he ad to die again,after Christ had pay the ransom for our sinsPierre
I just wanted to establish that the resurrection for all at the end is a resurrection of flesh and spirit.
Some here seem to believe different.
Kerwinat the resurrection you say that it be of flesh and spirit ,could you be more specific?
Pierre
Pierre,I can only go so far as to state the flesh that is planted is not the flesh that arizes on the final resurection though it will apear like it. This change is the same change that happens to those yet living whom are “changed in the twinkling of an eye”.
This flesh will be the new tent of the spirit side of man.
Kerwin………You are right there is a Flesh body in the resurrection and it will contain spirit (in) it. And as a result be a living Soul again. The problem here is they do not understand what spirit IS. or they would knew there exists no such thing as a Spirit BODY> there is a “spiritual body” but not a Spirit Body. Jesus plainly said that “a spirit does not have a flesh and bone body as you see i have” and that was after his resurrection. No man has ever seen God because he is Spirit and can not be seen but only perceived by our minds and those who are spiritual can see him this way through the eye of their understanding. God the Father was truly dwelling (IN) Jesus , just as Jesus said he was ” the father (IN) me (HE) doth the works” , Kerwin they simply do not understand that because they can n t comprehend that God the Father (who is Spirit was truly indeed (IN) Jesus. The reason they can't understand that is because they do not know what spirit really is. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Gene,
That what you say is perfectly correct.Mike's only desire is to say that Istari is wrong because he is trying to 'Save Face'.
It is not that he CANNOT UNDERSTAND. Mike knows the truth full well. His arguments swing through so many changes, from one side to another, through so many hoops… Even he doesn't know whether he is coming or going.
B
BUT what he IS DOING though, is to WEAVE the truth into his arguments very subtly and slowly… One day he will agree with what we have been saying – but then say THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS SAYING ALL ALONG.At that point we should WELCOME HIM into the fold of truth!!
But, for time being, be a Detective and keep (Mike) Hammer- ing away at him!!
See his latest twist: 'Those who have gone to heaven SINCE' where as he previously said they were already there BEFORE JESUS! That there were already men in heaven with bodies …
Has this guy, Mikeboll64, got any credit left !?What use does a Spirit have with a BODY?
see mike creates his own dilemmaand then blames me:
I say Jesus 'puts off the body' before entering heaven.
Mike says 'Jesus is in heaven WITH A BODY'
Then Mike says it's impossible that Jesus is the ONLY ONE in heaven with a body…
Er, Mike, that is ONLY BECAUSE YOU SAY there are others in heaven with bodies…
We say there are ONLY SPIRITS who do not have bodies – and neither does Jesus nor God.Only when they come into the Physical world do they 'Put on' a body…
And YES, the body resembles MAN so as to fit in .. It could appear as ANYTHING…How many times have I to say it. The Spirit is INTELLIGENT POWER – power is Energy at work (This is simple physics) The Energy can create ANT KIND OF MATTER and form ANY SHAPE. it is the Spirit (Intelligence) in that matter that animates it.
Istari
are incapable to answer my question ?
when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.
so what is your respond to this ?
because all your theory sits on nothing without seeing this as truth of GodPierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2011,11:43) Quote (Rena @ June 12 2011,20:06) Mike, Jesus is not 'alone as the only spirit body in heaven. The first resurrection of the dead has taken place already. And I believe that those who die don't wait in the grave they're taken up straight away.
Hi Kar,I partly agree. I believe that ONLY the elect who die for the sake of Jesus' name are taken up immediately. John says in Rev 6:9-11 that he saw the souls of those beheaded because of the testimony they maintained. They were asking how long they must wait to be avenged. (They were also given robes to wear on their apparently non-existent bodies.
)But for you to assume that Jesus and the others who were resurrected to a life in heaven are some kind of half/man-half/spirit beings who DO have bodies, while the others in heaven who have always been spirit beings do not, still leads me to ask again what I've asked before:
Kar, does it make sense to you that the one who rules over heaven (and those who have been resurrected since him) are constrained by bodies while the angels they rule over are unconstrained and “everywhere all the time”?
peace,
mike
Hi Mike and all,Permit me please in my humble way,to give what I'm aware of through the gospel regarding ,Souls,spirits,body and flesh.
First, it is very important to be aware of, that Jesus is the only person in all heavenly being that has a BODY,a SOUL, and a SPIRIT. three in one. Since no blood and no flesh can inherit God's kingdom,this kind of body has nothing to do in comparison to the flesh body which Jesus himself had before he died, so He possesses a unique spiritual body
When we die,we leave our bodies on earth buried,and it will remain there till the last they,and the souls only,will go temporary, to wherever they are entitle. On that occasion when all eventually hear the voice of the lord,they will rise in order to unite with their respective souls and live in spiritual bodies in paradise,but not like the one which Jesus have yet.This kind of body will be like that of Adam and Eve had when they were created, before they sinned. To start all over again in this world but without pain,death, and all kind of suffering, and evil,where all will live in perfect brotherhood including animals.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
That would be the first realm to the road for glorification.
The kind of body Jesus has is one that could materialize and go back to a spiritual one as He feels, and when He feels like.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The wedding of the lamb??
On the last day of the Lord, The wedding of the lamb,all righteous will possess a unique body united with their respective souls,and also , with the appropriate guardian angel spirit being,created since the creation of the spiritual beings,in order to become like Jesus.
So through this process all creatures would be like Jesus Christ, with a unique body, soul and spirit.Example: St Michael ,who was created by the Father through His Son, in His son, and for His Son, as he is now ,is only a spiritual being without body,although he has a kind of soul since he was created,but on the last day, he would be within the appropriate number of human souls and their respective bodies as their spirit. God,through the Holy Spirit in the spirit of Jesus would be in Michael since he was created by Him, in Him,and for Him.
Jesus as He is now,through the Holy Spirit, is temporary God Almighty within Jesus, He is in command of heaven and earth,since He was both glorified,and glorified the Father through the Holy Spirit,but on the last day,Jesus will give all to the Father.Although He would still keep His divinity within the Father because they are inseparable as spirits within the Holy Spirit. His spirit would be in all His particular saints which He himself selected,since they were created by Him, in Him,and for Him. All John 17
Through this most mysterious amazing process,which we are not able to comprehend within our flesh and blood wisdom, God would be all in all down to our own unique body.
Since we are the only productive creatures, it would be only through us that God would be able to continue His growth , with righteous perfect creatures throughout every month for the first time ever, Rev:22
I hope I was clear enough , and waiting for your comments to learn and to receive light???
Peace and Love in Our Lord Jesus Christ
Charles
Jay, I agree with you. I was thinking about it on the way home today. Jesus said he is with us always – even till the end. So… we dont see Jesus do we? He's here – in spirit. And in heaven in spirit. But when He returns he will be seen.
Am I getting closer?
All,
Jay is right.And also with the fractals in scripture. (Nobody comments on this though – why is that?)
I see dualty in scripture too. For everything that is physical there is a spiritual. There was a literal temple and then the temple became the body. There was a physical circumcision and then it became the circumcision of the heart. I could go on and on about that but it's another topic. But there was a physical Jesus on earth and then – spiritual.
Matt 28:20 – Behold, I am with you always, even to the end
John 14:2 – I am going to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.
John 14:16 – I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever, — the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.
John 14:18 – I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more; but you will see me. Because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
John 14:22 – “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world? Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.
John 14:25 – I have said these things to you, while still living with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.
John 14:28 – You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I. Now I have told you before it happens so that, when it happens, you may believe.
And then theres the day of the Lord which is 2nd visible return of Jesus and is in 2nd Peter 3. The day that will come burning as an oven.
Rev 1:7 – Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
Matt 16:27 – For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
Malachi 4:1 – “For, behold, the day comes, it burns as a furnace; and all the proud, and all who work wickedness, will be stubble; and the day that comes will burn them up,” says Yahweh of Armies, “that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings. You will go out, and leap like calves of the stall. You shall tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make,” says Yahweh of Armies.
2 Peter:3:4 – But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:10 – The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
istari
Quote Since we are the only productive creatures, it would be only through us that God would be able to continue His growth , with righteous perfect creatures throughout every month for the first time ever, Rev:22 it seems according to” ISTARI SCRIPTURES “that God does not love us but need us for his own development ?? scriptures please
Pierre
Rena,
Thank you for understanding – and the revelation of that understanding.I fail to find reason why Mikeboll64 is so determined to remain in his state of deliberate ignorance.
No one would be happier than me to see him turn to the truth as we can then move forward in truth.
The ability to ditch his fear of being seen to be wrong would be a glorious development. I have offered him an amnesty on 'Told you so' but he refuses it – perhaps, you, Rena, can offer him the hand of truth seeing he distrusts my own.
Mike, creates an oxymoron situation and confuses himself then blames others for his confusion.
He KNOWS that Jesus has a BODY.
He KNOWS that Jesus was RAISED FROM THE DEAD in that GLORIFIED BODY (The SPIRITUAL BODY).
He KNOWS that Jesus PROVED his BODY was NOT SPIRIT.
He KNOWS Jesus rose up into the air and disappeared into Heaven.
He KNOWS that the BODY cannot enter Heaven.
He KNOWS that Jesus is now a SPIRIT.
He now says that Jesus' body was TRANSFORMED TO A SPIRIT(UAL) before entering Heaven…So, the last statement is the stumbling block because there is NO VERSE IN SCRIPTURES that says that his body was transformed just before he entered Heaven.
The 'Verse' that Mike is struggling with says 'IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY'!Now, which part of 'RAISED' can Mike not understand?
If Mike believes that 'Raised' means 'Disappeared into a cloud' then I feel sorry for him for any sentence or phrase that is any more complexed.So, He agrees that Jesus was RAISED FROM THE DEAD into the SAME BODY HE DIED IN.
'It is SOWN in CORRUPTION, it is RAISED in INCORRUPTION'
'It is SOWN a NATURAL BODY, it is RAISED a SPIRITUAL BODY'What is SOWN – what is RAISED?
And if Jesus did not rise up in his BODY of GLORIFIED Flesh (The SPIRITUAL BODY) then in what body are the dead raised in?
Will they be raised into SPIRIT BODIES ( There is no such thing as a SPIRIT Body)?
So EVERYONE who is raised from the dead will be a SPIRIT?
even those who are to live on Paradise Earth (Hmmm… 'They are Spirits – in the material world' – where is the STING in that?)But No, the NATURAL BODY is the Flesh body that is subject to sinful ways, that can decay into dust, that is unrighteous in nature and inclination – Corruptible!
So, the SPIRITUAL BODY, this is the Flesh body that is NOT subject to Sinful ways, that cannot decay, that is righteous in nature and inclination – Incorruptible!Finally, what happened to the flesh and bone physical body of Jesus when Jesus entered Heaven?
Well, what do Angels do when they appear and disappear into and out of the Physical world?
They 'Put on' and 'Put off' the flesh body…
And so did Jesus – for flesh and bone is but material matter – and the elements of the flesh and bone material body are all around us in the atmostphere or can be created from powerful Spirit energy sources!That's right Jay. It took me a while – and some thinking today – to see that. And Jesus said they will be like the Angels of Heaven.
I get it now.
Charles
Quote First, it is very important to be aware of, that Jesus is the only person in all heavenly being that has a BODY,a SOUL, and a SPIRIT. three in one. Since no blood and no flesh can inherit God's kingdom,this kind of body has nothing to do in comparison to the flesh body which Jesus himself had before he died, so He possesses a unique spiritual body this is not true God has a soul and a form of body,all angels have body form,if they do not they do not exist
Pierre
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