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Istari,
What's left to say? You imagine that angels are “everywhere all the time” when scriptures say they come and go from place to place. You imagine the same about God, who Jesus says is “in heaven”. You imagine that a human being has the power to detain an angel sent from God on a very specific mission for 21 days – until an even more powerful angel is sent to break the hold of this human.
You ignore the fact that Jesus is a spirit and does have a body. You blow this off by imagining that he is a new kind of creature, the only one in heaven with a body when the angels he rules over are less encumbered because they can be “everywhere all the time” when their Lord cannot. But in rationalizing that Jesus is a new creation, and therefore the only being in heaven with a body, you forget that before he came as a man, he was in the FORM of God.
You have chosen to rewrite Paul's words from “as is the one from heaven, so ARE those of heaven” to “as is the one from heaven, so WILL BE those of heaven”; again placing the ones who will rule OVER angels in the awkward position of being encumbered by a body while those they rule over are “everywhere all the time”.
When I attempt to discuss the different possibilities of certain scriptures, your posts dance all around that actual scripture in favor of preaching the world according to JA, whether or not that teaching is scripturally supported.
I don't have the patience anymore to read your long, unorganized posts that jump from this bit of unrelated fluff to that bit of unrelated fluff, all while avoiding what the scriptures are teaching.We disagree. I understand it like Paladin does, according to his post. I understand that God has spirit hands and feet and face, etc. I understand that angels have spirit wings and faces (some of them have four faces) and hands, etc. You don't. We disagree and should just leave it at that.
mike
Mike,
Your summary is an excellent example of … And admirably display the reason for your inability to understand Spiritual matters.I am happy for you to close your account in this thread (Third – or fourth? – time)
In fact, it is the best thing that you could have done and shows that you DO have SOME residual semblance of Wisdom – I'm impressed – perhaps you could build on it!
'Know your limits – and never be afraid to admit you were wrong – the acceptance of truth is a winning acceptance – not loss!'
Shimmer,
Please allow Mikeboll64 some dignity in his delusion – he can't help it – it his job lot – it is his spiritual battle. As much as we can come IN SPIRIT to aid him, we cannot fight his demon Spirits unless he allows his SPIRIT to accept us into his body and mind to help direct and sustain his thoughts.(P.s. You missed a trick in your penultimate post : Why does it say that the HOLY SPIRIT came down in BODILY FORM if it ALWAYS HAD A BODY?
simple – it did not HAVE A BODILY FORM: Material and visible, before it CAME DOWN (from the higher dimension to the lesser) – it had a SPIRIT FORM: immaterial and invisible.Have you ever seen an insect caught in a Spider's web. The more it struggles – the more it entangles itself in that web until it suffocates itself! Mike's spider-web is his inability to see and think in the Spirit!!
Moreover, as I have said before but, as usual, no one realises the significance, the scriptures says that the Holy Spirit came down on Jesus' head 'LIKE A DOVE' – not 'AS A DOVE'.
The significant difference makes people wrongfully draw pictures of the Holy Spirit, symbolically or not, as a Dove.
'Like a Dove' means 'Pure White and with a soft flutter of wind – a light breeze' as a flesh and blood Dove lands on a branch – Metaphore that everyone at that time would readily understand as Doves were an essential part of sacrificial worship.
Contrast this with the Holy Spirit coming down to the Apostles at Pentecost: Fire, Lightening, Thunder, High Winds…
Were all different. We all see things different.
“The love doth never fail; and whether there be prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless; for in part we know, and in part we prophecy; and when that which is perfect may come, then that which is in part shall become useless. When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe; for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; and now there doth remain faith, hope, love — these three; and the greatest of these is love”.
Quote (Istari @ May 26 2011,19:37) Moreover, as I have said before but, as usual, no one realises the significance, the scriptures says that the Holy Spirit came down on Jesus' head 'LIKE A DOVE' – not 'AS A DOVE'. The significant difference makes people wrongfully draw pictures of the Holy Spirit, symbolically or not, as a Dove.
'Like a Dove' means 'Pure White and with a soft flutter of wind – a light breeze' as a flesh and blood Dove lands on a branch – Metaphore that everyone at that time would readily understand as Doves were an essential part of sacrificial worship.
Contrast this with the Holy Spirit coming down to the Apostles at Pentecost: Fire, Lightening, Thunder, High Winds…
Interesting when you look at the Greek and Hebrew words.“and to descend the spirit the Holy in bodily form like dove upon him and voice out of heaven to occur Thou art Son of me beloved in thee I am well pleased”
“behold were opened heavens and he saw Spirit God descending like dove lighting upon him And behold voice out of heavens said this is Son of me beloved in whom I am well pleased”
“behold servant of me whom I chose beloved of me whom is well pleased the soul of me I will put the Spirit of me upon him”
“Behold my Servant uphold my chosen delights my soul have put my spirit and justice to the nations will bring”
“and there developed suddenly from heaven noise like rushing wind violent and it filled whole house where they were sitting And there appeared to them distributing tongues as of fire And it settled upon one each of them and were filled all Spirit of holy”
Yes, Shimmer, several aspects there.
The Holy Spirit is likened to WIND, and FIRE: Invisible FORCE.
Also, for the Trinis: God says '…My Spirit…'.
No allusions to anything of a partnership. The SPIRIT (The Holy Spirit) BELONGS to God Almighty such that he can GIVE IT, SEND IT, WITHDRAW IT, as He pleases.The HOLY SPIRIT, itself, therefore is not an AUTONOMOUS entity but one guided by another: Almighty God, or Jesus Christ.
'God does not give His Spirit by Measure (To his Holy Servants) – But JESUS gives it by Measure as shown at Pentecost….
Jesus received the Full measure – the Apostles received Portions as seemed fitting – each differing aspects of the Spirit (Language, Teaching, Healing, etc.)
However, the Holy Spirit is not without sentiency – it, itself, can determine what to do and teach and administer in particular situations and circumstances as shown by verses that say 'It will teach you what you need to know' and 'it will …' – but note this also: Jesus says, 'it will not speak of itself – but of it will take of what is mine'!
At this time, God Almighty had GIVEN His Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ as part of Jesus' Kingship to give unto whom God had chosen from the beginning and those that Christ chooses for himself out of the world.So, in line with this thread – how is the Holy Spirited embodied and yet given to one and many all at the same time? Is it broken up into small pieces and yet each piece remains sentient? Or is it as would be expected it is like Intelligent POWER – the POWER can be apportioned but still each portion remain as to the whole. The power is never lost, the power is only distributed where it is required to act with required FORCE (Force is Active Power! – whether physical or mental)
If the Holy Spirit had a body how would it apportion itself? For a body is a collective contained entity.
Does POWER have a body – how is POWER in one place but not in another – yet it is still EVERYWHERE?
By virtue of it being ACTIVE or NOT!
Where is the WIND? where is the BREATHE?
is that which it IS not ALWAYS THERE BUT ONLY perceivable when it becomes ACTIVE?
Wind is ACTIVE AIR!
Breathe is blown Air!Where does the WIND go to when it becomes NOT WIND again?
Where does the Breathe go to after it is expelled?
Is it in ONE PLACE as a BODY – or is it now 'Everywhere' in the atmostphere?The WIND COMES at one Place – the WIND DEPARTS to every place (Inverse No Place!)
So, too, the Spirits!
JA………Some times i think of Spirit as Electricity it can be every where in a House at the same time and used by all kinds of things that are plugged into it. It should not be hard for our generation to understand how Power can be everywhere at the same time, even our cell phones can connect to each other and we can recieve information from one another, Spirit is Intellect Powers that controls our thinking and animates us to do things and gives us cognation of vicarious things. Spirits come various types and influence us to act in varuoues way and are able to be removes and replaced by GOD the Father so He can makes this statement , ” Thought your sin be as scarlet and red as crimsion thye shall be as white as Snow or Wool. So with God the Father there is hope fro all. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
I really dont see how any of this has anything to do with salvation though. Not that anyone should even believe just to be saved but only through love for the creator. And also… for anyone who believes in hellfire which is eternal torment, a false teaching, [wanting to know God just] to be saved from hell. Love of God is simply that, love,
Whether one believes Angels have wings etc is irrelevant. Rest assured about that. God looks on our heart and sees how hard we try and also our motives, as it says in scripture.
Its good to know that God knows that.
We cant get everything right [trinitarians either] so no matter what searching someone does to try and find the perfect truth its irrelevant.
Like everything Iv said, its only my opinion
Gene,
The light is shining in dark places – yes.Electricity is power in motion – force.
It is an enabler, an animator, it can do many things when used correctly – it can be used for good as we as bad – just like the Spirit.
Take the Spirit out of the world and see how man will go into demise – take Electricity out of the world today and see man retrograde – Electricity has become the Spirit of the God of Man in this world.
And does Electricity have a body?
It comes with the [thunder] clouds, it can be contained in a body (A Battery), it is the 'lifeblood' of so many devices in this world – yet – where did it COME FROM – and to where does it DEPART TO? and yet it is ALWAYS THERE – Everywhere – it just needs to be HARNESSED and brought to one point to activate it.
JA………..Yes even what we percieve as light is vibrating electrons at various wave lengths that stimulate our sensors in our eyes and give us the sensation of light or site, the electrons are bounced off substances that cause them to move at different wave lengths and this we perceive as various colors but in truth are just different electrons bouncing off at different wave lengths and the receptors in our eyes sends electric pulses of them to our brain which interprets them as various colors which is simply reflection of various electron wave striking retina of our eyes. “We are wonderfully made”, that is a very true statement brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Shimmer…………..You are right, LOVE is the Greatest of all things, both giving and receiving. You have it right little one. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
You are right what you say – so why say 'Imo' – do you not actually believe what you say is TRUTH?Gene,
You are right what you say – so why say 'Imo' – do you not actually believe what you say is TRUTH?JA………….I alway leave room in my complete perception of things, Brother, We are told we only see in Part and Prophesy in Part and that to me shows we lack a full understanding, so i speak as it appears to me brother. You might say something on a subject that might correct me so i am alway open for reproof brother. If something comes from my mind it certainly is My Opinion that i believe to be right JA>
peace and love to you and yours JA……………………………………..gene
So now we have consensus and a closure:
'Do Spirits have Bodies?' – No – they are like the Windand blow where they will!!!
JA……………I agree brother. Spirits do not have bodies they are what is (IN) bodies. Spirits are cognate forces which drives our intellects and all of them derive there source from one GOD, both Good and Evil Spirits do, and because GOD can switch and replace them at will , he can save all by changing the spirits working in us all. ” Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord Shall be Saved” it says. We are created unto good works by GOD the FATHER himself. Remember where God says,
Ias 1:18……> Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, the shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Theres Hope for all because of who and what GOD the Father of Spirits (IS)> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (Istari @ May 28 2011,02:38) So now we have consensus and a closure: 'Do Spirits have Bodies?' – No – they are like the Windand blow where they will!!!
All except for Jesus, right? The appointed ruler of the heavens and the earth is the only SPIRIT in heaven who is not as “free as the wind” because he's the only one who has a body constraining him, right?
Jesus said that whenever two or more are gathered in his name, he'll be there. I'd suppose on any given day, especially Sunday, there are millions of “two or mores” gathered in his name. How can he be with all of those groups at once, what with being confined in a body and all?
Gene, when you figure this out, you'll understand how God was “in Jesus, doing the works” while He remained in heaven. And Shimmer will know how Jesus and God are able to “dwell in the temple of our bodies” while they remain in heaven.
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