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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2011,12:24) Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,23:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,15:22) Oh, and Shimmer, I don't believe you answered this question for me:
Shimmer, do YOU believe it was a human being who was able to detain an angel sent from God for 21 days? Because this is the claim Istari is making. Do you agree with him?
I haven't even looked into that. I'll have to read it. Later.
Hi Shimmer,Let me know as soon as you read it, because I'm very curious if you too think a mere human being is able to detain an angel sent from God.
Before you even “look into it”, maybe you could tell me your 'guess” if you think that sounds feasible?
mike
I don't know Mike, it could mean either. What I said is just the way I understood it as I read it. Like I said I hadn't been paying attention to who said what. And I don't really see what it has to do with anything here? I find the book of Daniel really interesting. Not in this way though?Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,08:59) The Natural Body and the Spiritual Body: Romans 12: 1-2, 'I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, Holy, acceptable to God…'
(The Spiritual Body: presented to God as Jesus did after her was raised from the dead)'…and not conform to this world …'
(The Natural Body!)'…but be Transformed …'
(to the Spiritual body)'… By the RENEWING of your MIND…'
(The Spirit is the MIND – the INTELLIGENCE in the BODY. The physically sacrificed body that is kept Holy and Sinless by righteousness in thought and deed)'…that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God'
The Spiritual Body is the body that has a righteous mind (Spirit)!
JA……….Absolutely right on brother. If we are walking BY the Spirit we (ARE) Spiritual even Now . “No you not that (NOW) we are the Son of the living GOD”> The body is irrelevant it is the Spirit that is working (IN) that body that counts. And if the mind that Jesus had in Him is in You your ARE NOW Spiritually existing. IMO Paul plainly said You are not in the flesh if you are walking by the Spirit, but you are IN the Spirit and therefore are Spiritual existing. We are spiritual existing anyway, it just depends on what Kind or type of Spirit is (IN) us. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Gene,
Hi five my man!At least the thread has come back round to the thread topic.
Now all the blathering is out the way maybe this thread can be put to bed.
Mike, if you want to start a new thread on the Angel and Daniel that would be good.
It is an interesting take on how the Angel SPIRITs influence Mankind WORLDWIDE.
The angels in charge of different areas of earthly organisations, societies, systems, dominions, etc. How they influence mankind – Spiritual War – a battle of Mind and Thought – a battle OF mind and thought from the heavenly places to earthly regions!
Do Angels PHYSICALLY FIGHT?
Can one Angel KILL another Angel in battle?
Can they WOUND each other in their 'Body' (As you would say)?
Do they clash Spirit Swords as you think (Note: not SPIRITUAL SWORDS)Hold up – aren't swords Material Matter? Aren't swords embodied objects? Can embodied objects enter the invisible immaterial Spirit realm?
And what about the HORSES – Aren't Horses flesh and bone and blood – when did God create Horses in heaven – for Angels to ride on … Oops – don't Angels have WINGS – why do they need Horses if they have wings – why do they need wings if they have horses?
And Chariots – likewise?
And Jesus turned into a slaughtered Lamb that still lived to open the scroll that no one else could open.
And Angels blow trumpets – invisible immaterial trumpets in the invisible immaterial realm?!!
What sound is made in the immaterial invisible vacuum of space?
Please – no one misunderstand and say 'Istari – don't you believe Scriptures that says Jesus was the slaughtered lamb of God?'
I am testing Mikeboll64 as he wants to take things LITERALLY (when it pleases him to think be has an edge!)
I want to know if he understands SYMBOLISM, Metaphore, Analogy, Synonyms, Figuration (Figurativeness) and when it is used and when NOT!
Gene,
Do you think MIKEBOLL and IRENE deliberately avoid reading the type of verses that you showed – surely they are in their eyeball as they read through the Scriptures trying to DEVISE pointless nonsense to post against me?
I think they MUST DO!!
Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,20:16) Quote And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form They have never heard his voice nor seen his form because in the old testement what they saw and what they heard were Angels or the pre-existant Christ.
And then Jesus says,
`So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?'
BTW, the Greek word – εἴδει – eidos is also here,
`And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily appearance, as if a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, 'Thou art My Son — the Beloved, in thee I did delight.'
Shimmer! Pierre was quoting this Scripture in
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.and this is talking about Almighty God that he has a form or shape. The scripture in Phil. 2 says the same thing about Almighty father having a form…. …..
In the old Test, it is either an Angel or Jesus speaking.
You gave us good understanding of scriptures about what Jesus was saying, but just look at the scripture in John 5:37 again….
Peace Irene
Irene,
And what IS that SHAPE/FORM of God?
Note that SHAPE and FORM need not mean the same thing so you need to decide which word is MOST applicable…!
The Scriptures says that the FORM of God is SPIRIT but that does not translate as the SHAPE of SPIRIT.
Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,00:39) Two out of the five Bible Commentaries agreed with the view that I had on reading, and go on further to say that the Prince of the Kingdom of Persia is identified as the Prince called Cambyses who reigned in his Fathers absence and hindered the building of the Temple. The other commentaries say that the Prince of Persia is an Angelic being.
Here are two of the commentaries on Daniel 10:13 which are in your favour.
Wesley's Notes
10:13 Withstood me – God suffered the wicked counsels of Cambyses to take place awhile; but Daniel by his prayers, and the angel by his power, overcame him at last: and this very thing laid a foundation of the ruin of the Persian monarchies. Michael – Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ. I remained – To counter – work their designs against the people of God.
Geneva Study Bible
But the {h} prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, {i} Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(h) Meaning Cambyses, who reigned in his father's absence, and did not only for this time hinder the building of the temple, but would have further raged, if God had not sent me to resist him: and therefore I have stayed for the profit of the Church.
(i) Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels.Taken from here:
And here are the other three that Shimmer mentioned:Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
13. prince of . Persia-the angel of darkness that represented the Persian world power, to which Israel was then subject. This verse gives the reason why, though Daniel's “words were heard from the first day” (Da 10:12), the good angel did not come to him until more than three weeks had elapsed (Da 10:4).
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:
“the prince of the kingdom of Persia” is not to be understood the then reigning king of Persia, Cyrus, or his son Cambyses; who either of them would have been called rather king of Persia; nor were they able to withstand an angel, and such an one as Gabriel; nor is a good angel meant, the tutelar one of this kingdom; for it cannot be reasonably thought that good angels should militate against one another; but an evil angel, either Satan, the prince and god of this world, or one of his principal angels under him, employed by him to do what mischief he could in the court of Persia, against the people of God,
Barnes' Notes on the Bible:
Gesenius (Lexicon) explains it in this passage as denoting the “chiefs, princes, and angels; i. e., the archangels acting as patrons and advocates of particular nations before God.” That this is the proper meaning here as deduced from the words is apparent, for
(a) it is an angel that is speaking, and it would seem most natural to suppose that he had encountered one of his own rank;
(b) the mention of Michael who came to his aid – a name which, as we shall see, properly denotes an angel, leads to the same conclusion;
© it accords, also, with the prevailing belief on the subject.
Undoubtedly, one who takes into view all the circumstances referred to in this passage would most naturally understand this of an angelic being, having some kind of jurisdiction over the kingdom of Persia.
Even the scholars Shimmer quoted admit that one angel of God could destroy the whole world if he wanted to. Yet they still seem to think a human prince could detain them.
The words I supersized above say it all for me.
mike
All
if you read the book of Job you will see that the angel of God are fighting the angels of Satan ,but God only allow things to go to a certain limit.
Satan is using the powers of the world corruption to make is moves but God control all things so that the righteous and is will is save.
so I believe that the angels were fighting between them ,to control the outcome of the war in Daniel book
also look the dead of Moses for is body.
Pierre
Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
Mike,
Yes, you are right – I did read that part incorrectly about a previous assignment.
Okay, no problem. So since he wasn't sent on a “previous assignment”, but dispatched BY God Himself the very day Daniel started praying, he should have been there almost immediately, right? Because angels can fly REAL FAST with those wings, right?Compare what happened in chapter 9:
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed.You can see that in this case, the angel was dispatched as soon as Daniel started to pray (just as in the other case). Yet in this case, the angel made it to Daniel on his swift flying wings before Daniel even finished his 500 word prayer.
I assume the same thing would have happened the second time if not for the angel being detained. And I can't for the life of me believe that a mere human being could detain an angel from his appointed assignment for even a second.
Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
Now, as to the point of the Verse(s) – I have said that these are not directly related to the thread – you say they are … But I notice that you don't actually say HOW!
Simple Istari: If Gabriel, the first angel, was IN GOD'S PRESENCE to be dispatched to Daniel, and it took him at least the time it took Daniel to pray 500 words to get there, then he wasn't “already there”. The angel wouldn't have been able to COME TO Daniel in “swift flight”, for he wouldn't have been able to COME TO him at all – for he would have already been there.The second angel, could not have been SOMEWHERE ELSE being detained if he was “everywhere all the time”. Because if the angel was in the presence of the prince of Persia, and NOT in the presence of Daniel, then there was a place he WAS at the same exact time there was a place he WASN'T. And for that to happen, there has to be a beginning and end to his being. He has to have a form that is distinguishing where he IS from where he ISN'T.
See? This line of questioning fits right in to the topic of this thread. I know you claim that when an angel is in the “human realm” or whatever, he DOES have a body. Which is why it's important for me to show you that this angel was not detained in the human realm, but in the spiritual realm by another spirit. (Did the first angel, who was there within minutes, come by way of the human realm to reach Daniel? If not, then why would you think the second one would have?)
Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
This is akin to your famous 'I have many other proofs waiting' but never actually present any of them even after hundreds of pages of posts!!Your statement is just a 'Placeholder' until you can THINK UP something
Not at all, Istari. Daniel chapter nine, which I quoted from above is just one example of the things I have on the “back burner”. But I don't believe it will serve anyone to flood the thread with 1000 scriptures at once like Keith does. That tactic just makes things “crowded”, and many simple and direct points get lost in the crowd.Trust me, I wouldn't say it unless it was true. Why would I bother saying it at all if I couldn't back up my words?
Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
Mike, the only thing you are trying to say is 'How was a Spirit detained if he is in all places at all times – why does he need to COME or GO anywhere if he ALREADY IS everywhere'.
That's right. So when will you answer it SCRIPTURALLY? I have no use for your ramblings about dimensions and the like. If YOU want to claim that angels are “everywhere all the time”, the YOU need to show SCRIPTURAL support to this claim. In all of these pages, you have not shown one single scripture that supports what you're claiming – while some of us have shown you many to refute what you claim.Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
mike, yes – from your perspective you are right…. But because you are hard of understanding… You ignore the points you don't like and then claim confusion over the rest.Mike, 2 + 5 * 7 = (what?)
Is it 49, or is it 37?Mike, it is 37 – because in an open math equation there is a Precedence.
And the 'multiply' takes precedence over the 'plus'.To change the equation to make the answer 49 you need to change the equation to (2 + 5) * 7.
See Mike, the first is the SPIRIT equation.
The second is the BODY equation.
See what I mean? Is this mathematical equation, and your conclusion that one answer is “SPIRIT” while the other is “BODY”, in the scriptures? If not, then drop this line of nonsense, and support your claim using the scriptures themselves.Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33)
The SPIRIT is EVERYWHERE UNTIL it COMES into the PHYSICAL WORLD!
When the SPIRIT LEAVES the physical world it again is EVERYWHERE.
Yes, we all know that is your claim. Now where is your scriptural support to this? In the Book of Job, angels COME BEFORE God to present themselves to Him. He asks Satan WHERE he has been? Isn't that a silly question if Satan can't possibly be anywhere except for “everywhere all the time”?And since God is also “everywhere all the time”, why even ask the question in the first place? Wouldn't God have been “everywhere all the time” right along with Satan? And that word “with”, what about it? How can God be WITH any other spirit being if all of them are “everywhere all the time”? If God is everywhere, and Satan is everywhere, then they are overlapping each other, aren't they?
To be WITH another, there must be a spot where one person ends and the other begins.
Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,01:33) Mike, you are fighting a war against SPIRITUAL MATTERS using a foolish SCIENTIFIC tool of LOGIC!
“Scientific tool”? God is the One who created us with logic. Jesus showed us many applications of using our own logic in the scriptures. So did his Father in the OT. And don't forget that my understanding comes from the scriptures themselves.Istari, SF is right. You DO post too much. Your posts are often long, drawn out, filled with nonsensical mathematical equations and the like, and unorganized. Your posts seem to be a platform from which you spout whatever's on your mind.
Right now, we are talking ONLY about Daniel. You have agreed that the angel's ONLY mission was to get word to Daniel. The response to the previous prayer Daniel made took only minutes. The next response took 21 days.
Despite the words of Shimmer's “Pro-Istari” scholars, there is no scriptural reason to think this angel had to “convince” the human prince of Persia to do anything. Besides, that would mean the angel detained HIMSELF trying to persuade some human to do something. The “Pro-Istari” scholars have forgotten that God foretold exactly what Cyrus was going to do 400 years before Cyrus was even born. God says His word has never come back to Him without accomplishing its purpose. Do you seriously believe that a human being was standing in the way of God's purpose being fulfilled, and that an angel sent from Him on a specific mission decided to blow off that mission and instead detained himself with this human by trying to “convince” him to go along with God's plan?
Please keep your response short and to the point in question, so I can do the same. Oh, and once in a while, try quoting the exact question I asked you along with your DIRECT response to that DIRECT question. That would really help. It's why most of us here do it that way.
mike
Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,03:16) BTW, the Greek word – εἴδει – eidos is also here, `And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily appearance, as if a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, 'Thou art My Son — the Beloved, in thee I did delight.'
And what did the word mean in that scripture, Shimmer?Hi Shimmer,
This part of my post to Istari is also for you:
Despite the words of Shimmer's “Pro-Istari” scholars, there is no scriptural reason to think this angel had to “convince” the human prince of Persia to do anything. Besides, that would mean the angel detained HIMSELF trying to persuade some human to do something. The “Pro-Istari” scholars have forgotten that God foretold exactly what Cyrus was going to do 400 years before Cyrus was even born. God says His word has never come back to Him without accomplishing its purpose. Do you seriously believe that a human being was standing in the way of God's purpose being fulfilled, and that an angel sent from Him on a specific mission decided to blow off that mission and instead detained himself with this human by trying to “convince” him to go along with God's plan?
Please answer the bolded part.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2011,12:44) Hi Shimmer, This part of my post to Istari is also for you:
Despite the words of Shimmer's “Pro-Istari” scholars, there is no scriptural reason to think this angel had to “convince” the human prince of Persia to do anything. Besides, that would mean the angel detained HIMSELF trying to persuade some human to do something. The “Pro-Istari” scholars have forgotten that God foretold exactly what Cyrus was going to do 400 years before Cyrus was even born. God says His word has never come back to Him without accomplishing its purpose. Do you seriously believe that a human being was standing in the way of God's purpose being fulfilled, and that an angel sent from Him on a specific mission decided to blow off that mission and instead detained himself with this human by trying to “convince” him to go along with God's plan?
Please answer the bolded part.
peace,
mike
Mike,I do not understand your mode of speech, but I do understand that of Jesus. Only Jesus came down from heaven and only Jesus (as the first of many) returned to heaven.
However, what he spoke were spiritual things and many of those who were listening could not understand.
Round and round this goes.
If you think in the flesh then you live in the flesh.
Do you see shops, people, or do you see spiritual things? The people and the trees and all things of nature make up a part of life that is spiritual as it is all God created.
However the shops and toys and electronics and so forth are all manmade things and have no part in the creation of God.
Spiritual things are heavenly things.
If you want to say that scripture is wrong when it says God is invisible and is spirit then thats ok because no matter what anyone shows you, you will not see.
Thats all I have to say at the moment.
I do not want to answer your question because it is irrelevant to the thread topic.
The book of Daniel is of other importance and not just to prove a mikeboll point
Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,19:16)
If you want to say that scripture is wrong when it says God is invisible and is spirit then thats ok because no matter what anyone shows you, you will not see.
How does God having a form, WHICH SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS MANY TIMES, contradict the scriptures that say He is invisible to human eyes and that He is spirit?I don't say ANY scripture is wrong – except maybe for Matthew 28:19 – the wording of which I think was changed by scribes who were slanted by Trinitarian beliefs. It is you who says scripture is wrong when Jesus says the angels of children see the face of God, yet you say God doesn't have a face. It is you who says the scriptures are wrong when God told Moses he could see His back, but not His face. Or when Paul says Jesus was in the form of God, and you say God has no form.
Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,19:16)
I do not want to answer your question because it is irrelevant to the thread topic.The book of Daniel is of other importance and not just to prove a mikeboll point
You really can't see the relevance? What's the problem Shimmer? It is a YES or NO question – either you believe a human could detain an angel on a mission from God or you don't. Istari's math equation today used up much space in this thread with non-related fluff. Yet you won't answer a simple YES or NO question that is right on topic? Why?Mike,
The mass majority of humankind is opposing God himself.But God has put a time limit on how long this opposition will last – and THEN he will act against them in final and ultimate judgement.
Mike, how is humankind opposing YHVH God Almighty?
Is it not through being INFLUENCED by wicked Angelic forces of Darkness?
You say the Angel came in 'Swift Flight' … What are you proving … Do you not run away 'in swift flight' when truth is shown you – or do you DETAIN THE EXPOSITION OF TRUTH by your pointless references to earthly fleshly matters in relation to Spiritual matters?
You rightly cannot see in the Spirit so you see only from the flesh view – the physicalviiew – therefore, like FLATLANDER MAN, things seem impossible to you!
You deliberately ignore what I say on Dimensions so that you can maintain your limited Mind and Thoughts (your Spirit) in the worldly fleshly realm.
Your constant misuse of aphorisms, metaphores, analogy, symbolism, etc…shows that you are not capable of rational thought concerning anything other than earthly worldly fleshly matters – you could join Stewart down in Sceptics!
You are STILL maintaining that YHVH God Almighty is NOT everywhere? Man may God find somw worthyness in you!
God Almighty is IN EVERYTHING – Mike, 'Everything is Mine', sayeth the LORD (YHVH). And another one says, 'Where can I go that I my spirit can hide from you?'
Mike, do you believe that Satan knows your every thought, your every deed, your every waking and sleeping moment – looking for opportunities to come into your thought to do wicked deeds?
Mike, do you bieve that GOD has dispatched Angels to watch over you to OPPOSE those influencing thoughts from Satan in you – Mike, that is what is known as Your CONSCIENCE!!
Mike, I tried to steer the thread back to 'Do Spirits have Bodies' but you have nothing but wayward Scripture verses that are so wide of the mark that you might as well be shooting blind – or perhaps ARE shooting BLIND!
But, for the sake of answering you – What purpose is served by SPIRITUAL WARFARE if it does not ultimately mean that mankind is influenced?
Do you see how WORLD POWERS act to change regimes.
Did an Angel kill Saddam Hussain?
Is Colonel Gadaffi being hunted by flying Angels with wings?
Did Egypt fall by an Angel with a Sword, and the others – Mike, how you noticed world events: Greece, the Arab nations, the Western economy, the Banking crisis, the Housing Market, CHILDREN POWER, Crime rates up, confusion in the Political arenas…Did Angels do all that? Or did they INFLUENCE mankind WORLD WIDE?
As why do you say that an Angel could wipe out everything in one swift move?
Man, go to sleep! Could God not have disposed of Satan on day one of his downfall?But what would that have proved? That God was 'Scared' for his fragile creation?
No, Mike, it proves that God is ALL POWERFUL such that he allows Satan to oppose him and try to prove his (Satan's) case (That mankind can rule itself : and then, secretly, make Satan it's God!)If God spared the world hoping for mankind to be pursuaded to change – why would God permit the Angel to destroy all those who were to provide a pathway to show his justice – namely, that God raises up whom he wills and puts down whom he wills – in his own time – as with Pharoah, as with King Saul, as with his Prophets, as with the great Kings (David and Solomon) etc.
So he raises nations and puts down nations – so nations he raises up who depart from his guidance are taken down – but how? God sends them Spirits – one nation against another – one Spirit against another – and a battle of MIND and THOUGHT ensues – the strategic battle of Wills that causes destruction in one place and hope in another.
You miss the point that BOTH the Angelic warfare, and the history of the Persians, are linked – so dismiss our wise little one – she has rightly shown you the proof that you did not wish to see – so you separate the proofs and side with the one only that supports your claim – how desparate and MEAN!
God is not a God of Logic – for Logic is what the Greeks do daily in their debate chambers to tiresome levels.
Also Science is based on Logic and that is why the likes of Stewart cannot gain Spiritual Wisdom much like another close by!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2011,12:41) Quote (shimmer @ May 24 2011,03:16) BTW, the Greek word – εἴδει – eidos is also here, `And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily appearance, as if a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, 'Thou art My Son — the Beloved, in thee I did delight.'
And what did the word mean in that scripture, Shimmer?
What does it mean to you? The Holy Spirit has a form. Don't you say the Holy Spirit is not a third being?
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