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Mike,
When I read your posts I have to first take a deep breathe…Are you serious that you cannot understand how a human can detain (Read also 'Resist') a Spirit?
When dealing with POWERS things don't always occur with direct inmediacy: I gave you an exact example and you appear not to understand – and then immediately ask the HOW of the HOW that o showed you.The purpose is to pursuade – not Force!
God has no explicit timescale like humans who have a short time to live.
God does not always need to force someone to do something because time deal with it.
Also, remember I said that the Good Spirit was Opposed by the Bad. The Prince can CHOOSE which he accepts – RESISTING is choosing the bad.
Remember that Gabriel MUST ACCOMPLISH HIS TASK – therefore he MUST remain until he does so – until the Prince accepts the good.Mike, why does God not just dispose of all evil men in the world – are they not also resisting the forces of good?
But God has appointed a time for when ALL resistance will be useless …Mike, why does God not just despose of Satan? And the itinerant Angels.
Angels have no redemption – but man does – so God may hope that the wrongful person chooses the right and ditches the bad pursuation. BUT if God has a SPECIFIC REASON for immediate reconciling then he will instruct the Angel to use whatever force is necessary.
Balaam – Did the Angel not first try to pursuade Balaam to turn back – only when Balaam resisted (unknowingly it seems) did the Angel materialise a sword (Display his Power) that brought the message directly to Balaam… (Perhaps this shows that the Angel did not realise that Balaam could not the donkey's actions so Balaam could not be blamed (as we see it) for not understanding why the donkey was acting weirdly)
Cricket Mikeboll64,
You really are such a tough nut – You posted a Scripture verse that says 'Face of God' and want to make a big deal about it when you can easily check what it means – you are just purposely posting nonsense (with respect to what you should be discussing).
You know exactly what that verse means and you know it has nothing to do with any Physical or SPIRIT FACE (as you are alluding to).
Why, Mike, Why – are you not being a 'Prince of Persia'?
You are THRASHING at ANYTHING that even REMOTELY mentions anything of a human facet.
Mike, Humans features are only required because of the restrained nature of the flesh in the limited body bound world. The Spirit has no need of these strangulation facets – angels don't need Hands, feet, eyes, ears, whatever… These are HUMAN EARTHLY features to deal with Human Earthly objects.
Mike, stop posting nonsense – if you can't think of anything worthwhile then just stop – thrashing at desperate verses does you no credit – in fact all it does is make you try to develop your need for disingenuous ideas – Stop before you call down an Evil Spirit into yourself…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,03:18) It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. But let one of us finally get to the point where we've had enough and retaliate, and here come the scoldings from you two. 
What is this? What are you talking about?The only thing I'v been saying is God doesn't have a body because scripture say's so. Now I'm doing what?
Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,13:26) Balaam – Did the Angel not first try to pursuade Balaam to turn back – only when Balaam resisted (unknowingly it seems) did the Angel materialise a sword (Display his Power) that brought the message directly to Balaam… (Perhaps this shows that the Angel did not realise that Balaam could not the donkey's actions so Balaam could not be blamed (as we see it) for not understanding why the donkey was acting weirdly)
The angel had the sword the whole time. Now, switch places between Balaam and the angel for a moment. Suppose that instead of the angel trying to deter Balaam, it was Balaam trying to deter the angel.First of all, Balaam couldn't even SEE the angel until God opened his eyes to see the angel. So there is NO WAY that Balaam could have detained this angel from delivering a message of God to someone else because he would have been able to even SEE him.
And even when he was able to see him, do you seriously think the human being Balaam could detain this angel and keep him from doing the mission his God sent him to do?
One angel wiped out 185,000 Assyrians in one night. Do you think Balaam would have had a chance of restraining this angel and keeping him from his mission?
You are claiming that this was about human beings mentally resisting the Spirit of God. This is not what Daniel's angel was talking about. This angel was sent to Daniel with word from God, but was detained for 21 days. Are you saying that the human prince of Persia could have been resisting God in his mind, and that somehow made an angel of God be 21 days late in reaching Babylon?
Let's cut to the chase, because you are masterfully twisting what the scripture clearly says:
Istari, if God has just now sent an angel to deliver a message to me, do you seriously think that you, as a human being, have any way to detain him and delay him on his mission? YES or NO?
Shimmer,
For yourself – just ignore him – he's got a sore head from thinking up pointless things to post against me.Can you see he has nothing to say so – like the Spirit evicted from his cleaned house, Mime is revisiting his old misappointed posts in the hope of gaining an advantage – fat chance.
See this thing about the Prince of Persia: Everything Mike is arguing I told him before … Nothing new …
What Mike is REALLY trying to say is 'How can a Spirit be detained if it is always everywhere all the time'
This is a silly question that is a vonglomaerstion of earthly thoughts and complete misunderstanding of what he is trying to prove against what he is being shown.Yet, read anyones exposition on this and no one else has a problem – ONLY MIKEBOLL64!!!!!
Yes, Spiritual Warfare – Yes, A prince being influenced over the management of his kingdom.Gabriel was dispatched to resolve it but could not pursuade the prince to SPIRITUALLY CHANGE – Change his MIND – Gabriel MUST ACCOMPLISH HIS TASK…. One day, ten days, twenty one days …. He must remain until his task is completed so yes, if the person he was sent to pursuade resists the pursuation then he must remain until he does – BUT another task was assigned to Gabriel and he took time out when Michael came to help.
'The force was strong with this one' by the evil angel forces working in the Prince against Gabriel.Interestingly, virtually EVERY BIBLE translation shows the last line of verse 13 as Kings (Unlike what Mike says)
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.English Standard Version (©2001)
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.King James Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.American King James Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.American Standard Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.Bible in Basic English
But the angel of the kingdom of Persia put himself against me for twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief angels, came to my help; and when I came he was still there with the angel of the kings of Persia.Douay-Rheims Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.Darby Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.English Revised Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.Webster's Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.World English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.Young's Literal Translation
'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,13:38) You posted a Scripture verse that says 'Face of God' and want to make a big deal about it when you can easily check what it means
Really? Check with who? How about I check with you, Istari? Do tell, what DOES that scripture mean?Mike, this all started when you were led to believe that God procreates and that God has a body like us, didn't it? Did you believe that at all Mike before coming to this forum? Do you still believe it or was that just a phrase?
Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,13:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,03:18) It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. But let one of us finally get to the point where we've had enough and retaliate, and here come the scoldings from you two.
What is this? What are you talking about?The only thing I'v been saying is God doesn't have a body because scripture say's so. Now I'm doing what?
First of all, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.Secondly, there is NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE that says God doesn't have a body.
Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,14:24)
What Mike is REALLY trying to say is 'How can a Spirit be detained if it is always everywhere all the time'
Well, how can it Istari? See Shimmer? He tells you to ignore me because he knows he is on the losing end of this one. Shimmer, do YOU believe it was a human being who was able to detain an angel sent from God for 21 days? Because this is the claim Istari is making. Do you agree with him?Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,14:24)
Gabriel was dispatched to resolve it but could not pursuade the prince to SPIRITUALLY CHANGE – Change his MIND – Gabriel MUST ACCOMPLISH HIS TASK…. One day, ten days, twenty one days …. He must remain until his task is completed so yes, if the person he was sent to pursuade resists the pursuation then he must remain until he does – BUT another task was assigned to Gabriel and he took time out when Michael came to help.
'The force was strong with this one' by the evil angel forces working in the Prince against Gabriel.
Istari, his TASK was to bring a message to Daniel. His task was never to “persuade the prince of Persia to change”.Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,14:24)
Interestingly, virtually EVERY BIBLE translation shows the last line of verse 13 as Kings (Unlike what Mike says)
Could you show me the part where I spoke dishonestly? Did I not explain all of this to you a couple of posts back? Did I not explain why some say “prince” twice, and others say “king” and still others say “kings”?I keep telling you that you are a big boy, and can validate for yourself anything I post. I don't have to “slant” things, because I'm not after anything but the truth. And that works out bad for you many times, because many times you argue against it.
Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,14:36) Mike, God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
Shimmer,Jesus is spirit and Jesus has a body. Let the scriptures teach you.
Hi Istari,
Quote No one but the disingenuous or deluded poster would claim that man or woman saw God and yet lived
Actually I am and was being neither disingenuous or deluded. I was being curious. I was not referring to seeing God's face or the image of God. I was asking genuinely about the Isaiah scripture. The best answer I got was from someone who read my post for what it was.Quote In the case of John and Isaiah seeing God, it was in visions, which apparently doesn't fall into the category of literally seeing Him with eyes of flesh. Apparently a human being CAN see Him in a vision and still live. That's my understanding of it.
mike
I was educated by the post shimmer posted relating to the idiom or phrase “face of God” and how it has “earthly origins” according to that bible commentator.
You may be lumping me in with some of the very active debators here and think I have a “Hidden Intenerary” or “Debate Tactick” when I asked my question and you asked me to clarify. Be assured, I don't. Most post was clear as a cloudless summer sky. I try my very best when posting here to be clear in my communications. I try my very best not post personal attacks(ad hominems?) as they are non-productive and don't give me any insight or perspective in enriching my relationship with Christ Jesus, God, and my fellow man. My humble understanding of what scripture I understand instructs me to have peacable interactions with my fellow man and to build one another up. I understand reading scripture for correction and instructuction part also. I wasn't asking about symbolism or anthropomorphism. I appreciate your views on both though.Quote I asked if God was a liar in line of him saying no man can see him and live.
Oh OK! My answere to that question is no Istari. Like i said in my intitial post I was curious about what Isaiah saw in his spiritual vision and how it related to the scripture you are referring to and Mike gave me a reasonable answer. Do you or anyone else here concur with his answer?
By the way, I have read alot of threads here at this web-site in my attempt to gain a better understanding of the people who frequently post here and to gain greater insight into scripture by reading other peoples understandings, many I have never posted in. In the ones I post in I read every single word every single person posts and i really think about what I post before I post it. Ask Gene, Tim, Mike, Paladin, Irene, shimmer or anyone else you can think of if I am disengenuous or deluded. I may not always fully comprehend what is posted like with Pierre because of his use of English sometimes, other times, he is very comprehendable. I always try my best to “add” to the conversation and not subtract from it. I probably don't always succeed.
From a purely objective perspective since everyone here is talking about the scriptures; something all true believers hold near and dear to thier hearts it is inevitable that sometimes things will get personal. When that happens my only comment is to try to think “What would Christ Jesus say here?” and do you best to emulate or personify him in the things you post.With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (Istari @ May 21 2011,23:30) S'truth – you mean there were people who believed the guy – Does Scriotures not say that the time will come as a their in the night? If we knew what time the their was coming we would all be prepared!
Please no more about this – thanks!
Was this addressed to me?JA / Istari……………..I believe Whispering is genuine and is sincere in his responses brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 23 2011,09:28) Quote (Istari @ May 21 2011,23:30) S'truth – you mean there were people who believed the guy – Does Scriotures not say that the time will come as a their in the night? If we knew what time the their was coming we would all be prepared!
Please no more about this – thanks!
Was this addressed to me?
No Seeking. We were talking about the guy who said there was supposed to be a rapture on May 21st. People believed him.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,08:33) Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,13:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,03:18) It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. But let one of us finally get to the point where we've had enough and retaliate, and here come the scoldings from you two.
What is this? What are you talking about?The only thing I'v been saying is God doesn't have a body because scripture say's so. Now I'm doing what?
First of all, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.Quote It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. Quote and here come the scoldings from you two I never said a thing. If you are going to accuse me of this then please go back and find it and prove it. Thanks.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 23 2011,09:39) JA / Istari……………..I believe Whispering is genuine and is sincere in his responses brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
I agree with that. I learnt a few things off wispring such as walking away from debate though it is often hard at times.Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,15:50) I never said a thing. If you are going to accuse me of this then please go back and find it and prove it. Thanks.
Hi Shimmer,Do you deny we've had this very same discussion at least three times now? Am I the only one who has pointed this out to you?
I shouldn't have brought you into what Gene said today, and I'm sorry about that. I wish I could take it back. But you haven't seriously forgotten that we've had many discussions about this very thing, have you?
Do you really want me to drudge some of them up and post them here?
mike
Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,14:25) Mike, this all started when you were led to believe that God procreates and that God has a body like us, didn't it? Did you believe that at all Mike before coming to this forum? Do you still believe it or was that just a phrase?
Shimmer,“Procreate” means “bring forth offspring”. Do you deny that God has brought forth offspring? The only reason Keith worded his poll the way he did was because he knew that many of you would be lead astray because the conotation that “procreate” has to do with a male and female having intercourse. His poll was designed to use a “trick word” to seemingly get people here to support his claim that Jesus didn't have a beginning, because there is no “goddess” that God had sex with.
It was a scam from the start, and very few here saw through the tricky wording and answered “YES, God did procreate”. I was among those who did see through it.
And I've never said God has a body “like us”.
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