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Gene, actually don't bother thanks – it is interesting that I made a mistake – there is no ACTUAL mention of Angels – the verse just says 'Horses and chariots of fire'.
Moreover, they didn't ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING but Elisha prayed and God struck the enemy with blindness… So I don't see what your link is with ANGELS?
I think Mikeboll tried this verse too – I always thought that Angels were mentioned but – yet – actually NOT!!!Still, I guess it could be assumed that the 'Horses and Chariots' were manned by Spirit Angels (But then Angels are [normally] invisible Spirits, eh!)
Quote (Istari @ May 21 2011,23:06) Mike,
Who has seen the 'Face of God'?
Spirit beings. But that is only according to the scriptures, which we all know you consider as slighty less informed than your own intelligence.Quote (Wispring @ May 21 2011,23:40) Hi Folks,
I am curious about the “no one has seen God but Jesus” concept simply because I was reading this the other night. I had decided that since Isaiah is referred to so much in the NT it would be good to read it and it has been interesting! Anyways here is the scripture.
Hi Wispring,In Hebrew culture, people referred to the angels God sent as “God” or as “YHWH”, since they were His vice regents speaking His words to them.
Judges 13
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”
Manoah realized it was, not Jehovah Himself, but an angel of Jehovah. Yet he still said, “We have seen God!”
I assume this is the case with Jacob wrestling “God”, or else the words of Jesus and even Jehovah Himself would be lies.
In the case of John and Isaiah seeing God, it was in visions, which apparently doesn't fall into the category of literally seeing Him with eyes of flesh. Apparently a human being CAN see Him in a vision and still live.
That's my understanding of it.
mike
Mike,
Your aimless attempts at a putdown are getting tiresome.Where do you get these obscure points from thinking that you are gaining an advantage. And what then when you are again proved wrong… Just move on the next pointless frivory complete undaunted by your complacency (Means you never learn!)
Mike, not even Scriptures tells of the 'face of God' such that we should see it. Once again you are attributing human features to the God being that is everlasting glory.
I take it you have done your research (You are always saying how you have 'more waiting' but never actually come out with anything – WHY then do you keep then back and argue the single aimless point to death?)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,01:15) Quote (Istari @ May 21 2011,23:06) Mike,
Who has seen the 'Face of God'?
Spirit beings. But that is only according to the scriptures, which we all know you consider as slighty less informed than your own intelligence.
Mike……….Why do you have to continually make insulting remarks, i am getting tired of you constantly insulting people here who do not agree with you. Please stop it, Show some respect , were all just trying to learn more here. JA has a right to his opinions just as your and everyone here does , lets just bring out point of views from scriptures and let it fall where it may. I try to learn from everyone here. Insulting people who don't agree with you only runs them off, please try to be more respectful brother. IMOpeace and love………………………gene
Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,00:50) Gene, actually don't bother thanks – it is interesting that I made a mistake – there is no ACTUAL mention of Angels – the verse just says 'Horses and chariots of fire'. Moreover, they didn't ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING but Elisha prayed and God struck the enemy with blindness… So I don't see what your link is with ANGELS?
I think Mikeboll tried this verse too – I always thought that Angels were mentioned but – yet – actually NOT!!!Still, I guess it could be assumed that the 'Horses and Chariots' were manned by Spirit Angels (But then Angels are [normally] invisible Spirits, eh!)
JA ………Yes when he said there are more on our side then on theirs, i assumed he was talking about Angels , but as your have said it i Don't believe actually says angels there. Thanks.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Istari @ May 21 2011,23:40) Mike,
It is precisely because you do not understand 'DIMENSIONS and IMMATERIAL' that is SPIRIT that you reach for human level understanding that is – like the BODY/Skin – is shackled and restrained in knowledge and understanding.For that reason have I not urged you to seek wisdom and understanding of Scripture through the SPIRIT.
Really? Tell me exactly what you KNOW about dimensions. Not what you THINK you've learned from other MEN.Tell me about “invisible” and “immaterial”. Like, does “invisible to humans” also mean “invisible to spirit beings”? A microbe is “invisible” to my eyes, does that mean it is “immaterial”?
Don't bother answering Istari, because like I've said before, what you truly KNOW about these things is as much as I, or even a 1 year old child, KNOWS about them……………..ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
And urge all you want, it is to no avail. I have seen the fruits of the spirit that guides you, and want no part of that spirit. Have you ever wondered why the spirit YOU follow leads you to conclusions that contradict the very words of scripture so often?
If not, you should.
Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,03:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,15:42) Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. Quote the above scripture says that God has a face that the angels can see. Hi Mike, you need to read this….
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Do always behold the face of God – This is taken from the practice of earthly courts. To be admitted to the presence of a king; to be allowed to see his face continually; to have free access to him at all times, was deemed a mark of special favor 1 Kings 10:8; Esther 1:14, and was esteemed a security for his protection.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Always behold the face – Hence, among the Jews, the angels were styled מלכי פנים, malakey panim, angels of the face, and Michael is said to be סר הפנים, sar ha-panim the prince of the face. This is an allusion to the privilege granted by eastern monarchs to their chief favourites; a privilege which others were never permitted to enjoy. The seven princes of Media and Persia, who were the chief favourites and privy-counsellors of Ahasuerus, are said to see the king's face. Esther 1:14; see also 2 Kings 25:19, and Jeremiah 51:25.
Okay. I read it. What is it that you think it is saying that contradicts something I said?Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,04:30) On a point of order: The first part of the text in Gabriel's speech to Daniel says he was battling with KINGS (Plural) of Persia – before he then goes on to say 'the Prince'….
Read it again.
Daniel 10:13 NRSV ©
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia,Is it just Istari, or does anyone else here think that Daniel's angel was detained for 21 days by a human prince?
Am I alone in thinking that a human being would not be able to detain an angel who was sent on a mission from God Himself?
Does anyone else read the 'that didn't hurt – hit me again' tone in Mike's posts above.
All of them are defeatist – the sour loser – even though the point is to WIN by learning.
Losing is only so if you choose to maintain your position even after being shown the right.
If you accept the truth then you ALSO WIN – for the prize is the same whether you knew the truthfrom the beginning or at the last…Mike, you asked (though retracted) me to tell you about dimensions ('Do you too desire to become a Disciple?') yet I have written EXTENSIVELY on it.
And I'm glad to see you include yourself in the 'one year old' setting for we are all lacking in comparison to the Almighty (even to fallen Angels who have vast knowledge – for even fallen Angels know God and weep in the errors of their deceitful ways!)
Sorry, were you hoping to cause me to sin by disputing against you and setting myself up…?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2011,08:44) Insulting people who don't agree with you only runs them off, please try to be more respectful brother.
It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. But let one of us finally get to the point where we've had enough and retaliate, and here come the scoldings from you two.
Gene, when you say those exact same words to Istari, then I will also take those words into account. Until then, they'll be filed where I file most of your posts.
Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,08:43) Mike, not even Scriptures tells of the 'face of God' such that we should see it
Sure it does. I've even posted a scripture that says children's angels always see the face of God.Will you acknowledge that scripture, or continue to call Jesus a liar?
Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:14) Does anyone else read the 'that didn't hurt – hit me again' tone in Mike's posts above. All of them are defeatist – the sour loser – even though the point is to WIN by learning.
Losing is only so if you choose to maintain your position even after being shown the right.
If you accept the truth then you ALSO WIN – for the prize is the same whether you knew the truthfrom the beginning or at the last…
Does anyone notice that when Istari can't argue against the clear words of scripture people show him, out come the personal comments towards the poster?Argue using scripture, Istari. Otherwise you prove yourself to be placing yourself above them, as I've claimed.
I'm seeing many personal attacks, but nothing scriptural to refute what I've posted. Is there a reason for this?
Mike,
We can differ on this – it clearly says 'Kings of Persia' in my NKJV Bible.However, it did strike me as strange that it should say 'Prince' in one place and 'Kings' in another.
Moreover, there is nothing strange in whether the Forces battled against are Human or Spirit. It is still a Spiritual battle.
If you read my post from before you will see that I say that.
An Angel would not be required to physically fight with a human (See Jacob and the Angel – one touch dealt Jacob a lifelong blow!)
What you need to find out is WHO WERE THE KINGS – and PRINCE – of Persia at that time in history (Alexander the great? Or was he the PRINCE OF GREECE)
I showed you how the demon Angels INFLUENCE the mind of the Human persons – so it can be seen also that powerful Demon Angels were embattled over the minds of the human Kings and Princes against the forces of Good.
Is this not so now with evil (allegedly) forces supporting Colonel Gadaffi in Libya and the forces of good (allegedly) of the West?
How many human days will Gadaffi defy those calling for his removal from his POWERs of office?
21 weeks, perhaps!Mike,
When I see no progress in the understanding – yes…
When the poster posts deliberate gibberish – yes…
When the poster is being disingenuous – yes…And these three are all you do for you long ago knew you had no leg to stand on but RESISTED TRUTH till now – and even now you are defient with nothing else to bring to the table…
Even as I hold out the Prize of Truth to you, you dash it down in sloven despairing childish frivolous comebacks… You just don't know how to quit – do you?
Look back – you accuse me of keeping the thread going – yet when I tried to close it – who was it who said 'It is over because I haven't said so!' (or words to that effect)
I think it was the same person who also said numerous times that he was finished with this thread…
Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:54) Mike,
When I see no progress in the understanding – yes…
When the poster posts deliberate gibberish – yes…
When the poster is being disingenuous – yes…
Well then, stop doing all of these things and start using scripture, as opposed to your imagination, to form your understandings.Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,09:54) Mike,
When I see no progress in the understanding – yes…
When the poster posts deliberate gibberish – yes…
When the poster is being disingenuous – yes…And these three are all you do for you long ago knew you had no leg to stand on but RESISTED TRUTH till now – and even now you are defient with nothing else to bring to the table…
Even as I hold out the Prize of Truth to you, you dash it down in sloven despairing childish frivolous comebacks… You just don't know how to quit – do you?
Look back – you accuse me of keeping the thread going – yet when I tried to close it – who was it who said 'It is over because I haven't said so!' (or words to that effect)
I think it was the same person who also said numerous times that he was finished with this thread…
istari
very funnyQuote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:45)
However, it did strike me as strange that it should say 'Prince' in one place and 'Kings' in another.
The Hebrew word is the plural word “kings”, which like the plural word “elohim”, can refer to more than one, or to a majestic one. That is why some translations say “kings” and others say “king”. There is really no way to know the difference in what was meant. But the LXX translates both the word “prince”, and the word “king” simply as “ruler”, which probably influenced the decision of the NRSV to translate both words as “prince”.Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:45)
Moreover, there is nothing strange in whether the Forces battled against are Human or Spirit. It is still a Spiritual battle.
I cannot see how a human being could detain an angel sent from God on a mission. Do you think YOU are powerful enough to keep an invisible and “immaterial” angel of God from his mission? If not, then why would you think some human prince or king was able to do this? This scripture is obviously referring to the spirit rulers of Persia, for only a spirit would have a chance at detaining another spirit.Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:45)
What you need to find out is WHO WERE THE KINGS – and PRINCE – of Persia at that time in history (Alexander the great? Or was he the PRINCE OF GREECE)
That doesn't really matter, for no human ruler could detain a spiritual being sent from God, let alone prevail over him to the point that another angel had to be sent as backup.Quote (Istari @ May 22 2011,09:45)
Is this not so now with evil (allegedly) forces supporting Colonel Gadaffi in Libya and the forces of good(allegedly) of the West?
Do you suppose Gadaffi could fend off an angel of God? If so, then how is it that God sent only one angel to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians?mike
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