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Quote (shimmer @ May 21 2011,05:05) a leader of blind ones, a light of those in darkness, an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of the knowledge and of the truth. – Rom 2:19 traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away. – 2 Tim 3:4
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus? – Romans 9:20
and [it is] good to be zealously regarded, in what is good, at all times, and not only in my being present with you;
my little children, of whom again I travail in birth, till Christ may be formed in you. – Galatians 4:18
Hi Shimmer,Only one of your four scriptures has the word “morphe” that is in Phil 2. And here's how the NETBible translates that one:
2 Timothy 3:5 NET ©
They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.We aren't discussing the many meanings of the ENGLISH word “form” here, but the meaning of the GREEK word “morphe”.
mike
Quote (Istari @ May 21 2011,06:25) Mike, your netNotes:
1) … Is this not purely a definition for physical objects?
2) … What is the EXTERNAL form of an immaterial and invisible thing?Spirit is not a physical object (entity) so why did you chose those two definitions (only).
Surely, Mike, if you were so confident of yourself you would not have excluded all the other definitions and left it to the reader to make up their own mind?
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Istari, you need to slow your roll. The first time you accused me of slanting things by only listing what I wanted to list, I had posted the actual LINK to those definitions, where they had 40 other ones that I didn't want to take up space with, since they didn't have anything to do with our discussion. You are a big boy. You could have easily clicked on the link, read the other 40 definitions, and posted whatever one you thought helped your case.
This time, I posted the ONLY two definitions there were for the Greek word “morphe”. And again, you're a big boy, so you are more than welcome to check into anything I post.
Next time, check into it to see if I've left out anything “important” before you imply that I'm being deceitful, okay?
It's funny how I post the exact words of scripture and the exact definitions of the Greek word, yet you and Shimmer and Gene scramble to find a way that I could be wrong, just because what I posted doesn't fit in with your own preconceived notions.
Well, I've answered your scrambling sufficiently enough, right? So now what? Do all three of you now say, “Wow, I never knew that Mike – thanks for pointing it out to us!”?
Do you guys still not understand what I'm about after all this time? I read the jabs about only wanting to argue and about asking the same questions until I get the answer I want. But this is simply the childish behavior of certain people who don't like it when the words of scripture don't fit around THEIR OWN doctrine. I AM ABOUT ONLY WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY……………AND NOTHING ELSE.
You should have all realized this when I was willing to go to war with my friends Pierre and Irene simply because Shimmer showed me a scripture that refuted what the three of us had previously believed. And now where do we stand? Pierre and Irene STILL believe Jesus was raised as a spirit right from the grave, but not me. No, I have adjusted my understanding to fit AROUND THE SCRIPTURES, instead of the other way around.
So say whatever you want about me. The ONLY understanding I have comes from the scriptures themselves. I have never tried to slant the scriptures or twist any definitions to make them fit around my own doctrine, because the only doctrine I have is the word of God. Phil 2 says God and the preexistent Jesus had a form, and the above scripture says that God has a face that the angels can see.
There are many more scriptures like these two, you know. None of us know anything at all about “dimensions” and “immaterial” and such. It is all the GUESSES of human beings who consider themselves to be “so smart”. You all can rely on guesses……………..I'll stick to the words of scripture.
Mike,
Who has seen the 'Face of God'?Does Scriptures not say 'Know one has seen God – the Son of God came to REVEAL HIM'.
GOD is SPIRIT and SPIRIT is INVISIBLE.
Check the purpose of the verse you quote – it means 'don't abuse those that APPEAR to be less than yourself for their SPIRIT LOOKS UPON LOVE BEAUTY AND RIGHTEOUSNESS'Stop struggling – it only makes you try all the harder to create knowingly or see desperately incorrect interpretations.
Mike,
Yes, we do know what you are about…
And I'm eagerly awaiting your next desparate misinterpretation.Mike,
You still have further to go to get your belief and understanding to fit INTO Scriptures. Fitting AROUND Scriptures allows you to SKIRT issues you don't like.Mike,
Only someone who does not have the Holy Spirit can say 'God and Jesus (in heaven) have a Form (meaning Skin or body)'Only someone who does not have wisdom and righteous understanding through the Holy Spirit of God can say that God has a 'Visible Face' in the invisible immaterial realm of the Spirit world.
Unless you mean the 'face' of God is as described symbolically in the Book of Revelation… How does it go again…? And how is Jesus symbolically described?
So Jesus has a double-edged sword as a Tongue – literally!!
Mike, POWER AND AUTHORITY of his Word – but not ALMIGHTY POWER AND AUTHORITY.
As much as Mordecai governed the kingdom of King Ahesareas (Book of Esther) and Joseph governed Egypt, neither were KING, nor Pharoah (And well you know that).
The description of Jesus is as one girded for WAR – in the VISUAL manner of HUMAN warfare – the symbolism's KEY!!Mike,
So it IS PRAISE that you are after …!
Well speak Godly truth and you will get INNER PRAISE – don't 'Seek it' from others.
For the TRUTH you reveal is NOT YOURS but HIS who will have GIVEN it To YOU!Hi Folks,
I am curious about the “no one has seen God but Jesus” concept simply because I was reading this the other night. I had decided that since Isaiah is referred to so much in the NT it would be good to read it and it has been interesting! Anyways here is the scripture.Quote Isaiah 6:1-5 (King James Version) Isaiah 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
I am understanding this to say that Isaiah saw God/Jehova. Sure it's in a prophetic vision with spiritual eyes I guess. All the same it is still seeing and he seemed to be upset by it until reassured by the angel/seraph.
How do you folks harmonize the above scripture with:Quote 1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
I don't really want to debate anything here. Just an explanatory post would be all right with me.With Love and Respect,
WispringMike,
It is precisely because you do not understand 'DIMENSIONS and IMMATERIAL' that is SPIRIT that you reach for human level understanding that is – like the BODY/Skin – is shackled and restrained in knowledge and understanding.For that reason have I not urged you to seek wisdom and understanding of Scripture through the SPIRIT.
Wispring,
No – No one has seen God but he who came from God – the man Jesus Christ.Is this the only verse where others have said they have seen God?
One said, 'I have seen the face of God and now I will surely die!'. Yet the ANGEL said 'Not so'.
Why, because it was Not GOD that they saw but the POWER OF GOD through the materialised messenging Angel.
Many here cannot and do not reconcile one part of Scriptures with another: Scriptures repeatedly state that the 'person' was an ANGEL yet when the astonished hearer mistakenly says 'God', those here try to use it as PROOF that the Hester saw God.Wispring, Is God liar? Did God not say that no man can see GOD and live?
The Power of God is so great that no flesh can directly endure the awesomeness – hence God always uses intermediaries to shield man from being destroyed.
Wispring, check the symbolism in Revelation: He who sat on the throne… Does God look like a man? Is that not an insult to God?
Does the painting of a man look like the Man (Careful ….!)?
No, the painting is a TWO DIMENSIONAL representation – a series of brush strokes of coloured paint and oil and water in the IMAGE of the man.
The image has only power to pursuade within limits of the viewer but the painter can create any number of persuasions through changing expressions in the painting, create artistic melodramas on the face of the image and or in the background: the static 2D world of the 'man' on a canvas.Why would the awesome God come down into his own creation – WJ argued that God could 'become' a worm if he chose to (I think the 'he' was probably WJ… Read it again – ambiguous?).
What an awesome worm that would be!!
Have you seen the film 'Tron'. Can you see how constrained the digital world is compared to the world of it's human creator? (Ok, the film hyped it up for drama) then how much greater is the world of the one who created our limited constrained human flesh bodies world?And if the power of things around us is awesome to us (Nuclear Power in physical energy – the Power of Thought in Mind) then how much more awesome is the one who constrained us!
No, Wispring…. No one of humankind has seen his creator (note that those who say That EVERYTHING was CREATED THROUGH JESUS strangely do not claim that Jesus CREATED EVERYTHING (including MANKIND!)
Yet God EXPLICITLY SAYS that He created Everything – repeated says so with emphasis! Yet Jesus never says at anytime 'I did this – I created you and all that you see around you – the visible and invisible'.
Could the hand THROUGH WHICH the pot was created say TO the pot 'Through Me you were created!'? (From the Wisdom in the Mind of the Potter through the perfect actioning of those thoughts by the hands so was the pot created)
….rambling….Wispring,
You see the face of God through LOVE of the common man on Earth – and through FAITH by the Spirit.Istari,
I see the image of God in every person I see because we were all created in his image. Go read Isaiah Istari. I am not comprehending he is being talked to or seeing only angels there. Asking meif God is a liar is rhetorical right? God is the truth. There is no lie in the truth. Faith is belief in things unseen. I have not seen God, Jesus or gravity. I have faith in all three. Go in peace.With Love and Respect,
WispringWith Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,15:42) Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. Quote the above scripture says that God has a face that the angels can see. Hi Mike, you need to read this….
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Do always behold the face of God – This is taken from the practice of earthly courts. To be admitted to the presence of a king; to be allowed to see his face continually; to have free access to him at all times, was deemed a mark of special favor 1 Kings 10:8; Esther 1:14, and was esteemed a security for his protection.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Always behold the face – Hence, among the Jews, the angels were styled מלכי פנים, malakey panim, angels of the face, and Michael is said to be סר הפנים, sar ha-panim the prince of the face. This is an allusion to the privilege granted by eastern monarchs to their chief favourites; a privilege which others were never permitted to enjoy. The seven princes of Media and Persia, who were the chief favourites and privy-counsellors of Ahasuerus, are said to see the king's face. Esther 1:14; see also 2 Kings 25:19, and Jeremiah 51:25.
Shimmer, you are as a Spiritual light to the those who are in Spiritual darkness.
Wispring, I know not what you just said…
I asked if God was a liar in line of him saying no man can see him and live.
This was to show that those who claimed to have seen God (Face to face) were wrong in 'who' exactly it was they saw.
No one but the disingenuous or deluded poster would claim that man or woman saw God and yet lived – else God lied AND Jesus lied – for Jesus himself said that no one had seen God but that the Son of God had come to reveal him AND, figuratively, you could see the father (God) in him (Jesus) … Ah: Thomas …'I see you My Lord Jesus AND I see you My God through him'.
Wispring, you are asking (are you asking) whether it is true that mankind in the scriptures saw God!
The answer very easily – and simply – is No! But they saw the GLORY of God through the one God sent to speak his words to them!Understand the culture of the people at that time and check the Scripture wording – you will ALWAYS see that it was an ANGEL.
Even Moses at the burning bush – Scriptures says '… When the ANGEL spoke to Moses out of the burning bush'.
A fire is what? Is it not energy released as heat and flames and gas and light?
That fire can be controlled – a controlled fire. Do you have a cigarette lighter, a gas fire in your home,a gas Cooker, a fire brand (Torch) – are these not all 'Controlled release of Energy'?
So, too, with Spirits that are pure intelligent Energy. So although the fire was in the bush it was controlled such that it did not harm the bush but gave out it's light only even as it's flames consumed the oxygen in the air around it (How does a 'Fire Eater' entertainer not consume himself with his own fire. How is a lit Brandy covered Pudding not consumed by the flames from the Spirit of the Brandy?)Wispring,
The question you asked was regarding the 'Face of God'.
Now you reply convening the 'Image of God'.Can you clarify which you are really asking about because what is see is controversy here in the difference between the two things.
I mean: 'Did man see the Image of God'!… That is what your point has amalgamated to and makes no sense…
To say that you see the image of God in all people is saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for as you say ALL MANKIND was made in the image of God.To speak a Truism is not really saying anything – is it? Unless you are showing it as rhetorical!!
Shimmer,
Our great resident scholar says that the Prince of Persia was not a real person.
Before I even read your post I was going to ask Mike about it in regard to 'Gabriel fighting with the Prince' (Have done so before – even likened Mike to that PoP!)So thank you for the preEmptive reference in the post.
On a point of order: The first part of the text in Gabriel's speech to Daniel says he was battling with KINGS (Plural) of Persia – before he then goes on to say 'the Prince'….
JA………Who was Jacob wrestling with , was it a real angelic person with physical attributes or an illusion of his mind. This angel seems to have done real damage to his thigh. And when Elijah as God to open the eyes of the lad he saw real being fighting on the saw of Israel did he not. I know God can cause a vision in our minds of thing that seem real but in fact are not like dreams for instance, I an not aserting anything just asking questions brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Gene,
Jacob was wrestling not only with the Spirit in human form but with his conscience.He overcame both and so the Angel 'touched' him in the joint to show him that hevmust not boast that he 'Wrestled with God' and persevered – that even a simple touch, if the Angel wished to, could do him great harm.
Ask WHY WAS JACOB wrestling with a total stranger ALL NIGHT – was it not a metaphorical fight – like in a dream but more physical?
Who has not 'wrestled with God' and prevailed to their own conscience? Who has not done misdeeds despite KNOWING that it was wrong?
And as for the other thing you mention – I have no idea what that was about!
Ah, Gene,
Power – …The power of the Army force of Angel host of God – of which ArchAngel Michael, ONE of the CHIEF PRINCES, is their Captain.
Gene,
If an Angel can inflict serious damage on a humanbeing simple from a touch (Ha – a poke in the eye!!) how much more damage could it do if it was seriously angry …See, Gene, A Sword… Why?
War horses – why?
Shields – what are they protecting themselves from?
Chariots – where can they NOT GO that they need a vehicle to transport them?Gene, this is all symbolism for their POWER as seen through the visualisation of war by mankind.
Angels are PURE POWER with intelligent control…
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