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Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,05:37) So, SPIRITUALLY speaking – NOTHING SEPARATES GOD ALMIGHTY FROM JESUS – they are ONE…in each other.
But Mike, this is NOT what you want to hear is it? You don't want to hear that in the SPIRIT there is no separation one from the other…
No………it's not what I want to hear. But I'm sure that Keith and Jack will be very proud of you for this one.If Jesus is ONE being and God is ANOTHER Being, then there are TWO beings mentioned, would you agree? Or do you conclude that Jesus and God are ONE BEING – like the trinni's claim?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2011,01:42) Quote (Pastry @ May 14 2011,08:31) Why do you have to return the insults Gene…. is it so important for you to do that? 
Brother Adam did not believe in Jesus, have you conveniently forgotten that???
Peace Irene
Hi Irene,What do you mean by “RETURN the insults”? I didn't insult Shimmer.
What Gene can't see is that Shimmer's answer is crucial to the point I've been making in this thread since day one. She said, “Well I dont know what seperates Jesus from God Almighty.”
That is an acknowledgement that there IS something that separates the Being of God from the being of Jesus, and she just doesn't know what that something would be. But anything that separates one thing from another thing can rightly be called a body.
Even a cloud in the sky has a body that separates what IS the cloud from what is blue sky.
Gene is just being Gene. His post wasn't worthy of a response from me.
mike
Hi Mike! I thought Gene was talking about Pierre insult…. Maybe I didn't read that right. Sorry…Peace IreneQuote (Pastry @ May 15 2011,01:31) Why do you have to return the insults Gene…. is it so important for you to do that?
peace Irene
Irene………Unto the kind God shows himself kind, unto the forward God shows himself forward, or do you think you people can throw out insults on others and abuse them but recieve back non from them. That is a problem here some think they can dish it out but not have to take it , and Terricca has long shown himself as one who does that with those who disagree with him, as well as other here like Mike and YOU at times. So just be prepared to recieve what you people dish out.As far as Adam Goes he was alway a believer in Jesus as a true servant of GOD , Just because he did not agree with some of your assumptions as well as others does not make a disbeliever, in Jesus or what Jesus said, who do you think you are to brand Him or anyone else like that? IMO
peace back to you………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2011,02:42) Quote (Pastry @ May 15 2011,01:31) Why do you have to return the insults Gene…. is it so important for you to do that?
peace Irene
Irene………Unto the kind God shows himself kind, unto the forward God shows himself forward, or do you think you people can throw out insults on others and abuse them but recieve back non from them. That is a problem here some think they can dish it out but not have to take it , and Terricca has long shown himself as one who does that with those who disagree with him, as well as other here like Mike and YOU at times. So just be prepared to recieve what you people dish out.As far as Adam Goes he was alway a believer in Jesus as a true servant of GOD , Just because he did not agree with some of your assumptions as well as others does not make a disbeliever, in Jesus or what Jesus said, who do you think you are to brand Him or anyone else like that? IMO
peace back to you………………………..gene
Gene! Two wrongs will never, I mean NEVER make a RIGHT….Your logic lacks wisdom…..
About Adam, you really think so low of t8 that He takes sides… And banns Adam for nothing??? I don't believe that for a second….But then its Gene talking….
Peace IreneMikeboll – I seriously think you need a break from the forum.
Several things you say in your response to my posts are so out of kilter that I wonder what world you live in.
For instance, the reference to my website has nothing to do with Scriptural postings. I post information about other matters.
The INFORMATION is of value to many people and is from respected sources. They are not my OPINIONS…
You decided that rather than understand what I was trying to say you would rather post subtle put downs on matters that you have no idea about nor understand – have I not accuse you of this before!And another: I did not say that Jesus and GOD were one being… This is sheer nonsense because you know I am not a Trinitarian AND spoke AGAINST THIS with Kathi.
But Jesus HIMSELF Said that he and his father were ONE; that he was in the father and the father was in him: this, Mike, is SPIRITUAL SPEAK – and I said that was how I was referring to it in defence of Shimmer…
Mike, why do you go out of your way to create misunderstanding where things are perfectly clear.
I never ever said or would ever say God and Jesus are ONE BEING.
You desparate desire to formulate PHYSICAL BODIES in heaven are driving you mad whenever someone posts a truthful revelation because it proves more and more that you are the one in error.
And, you swapping of references again: Are you saying that you never said SPIRITS HAVE BODIES – mike, so what are Angels?
Yet you twaddle your argument when you get caught…
How do Angels/Spirits in heaven have SPIRITUAL BODIES (What you call SPIRIT BODIES which are not the same things – and there is no such thing as a SPIRIT BODY else find me where ANYONE other than you, Irene and Terrarica mention it – nay, created it!!)
Only Jesus has a SPIRITUAL BODY … And he got it from being RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD.
First the NATURAL BODY – THEN the SPIRITUAL BODY!And Mike, Mike, Mike, … Please please please – tell me WHO THESE other people are who ARE IN HEAVEN who have a Spiritual Body … And MUST HAVE had them BEFORE JESUS had his seeing JESUS ONLY OBTAINED HIS AFTER HE DIED and was RAISED AGAIN.
yes, Mike, you rightly question the validity of the verse – and so do I…!
And finally, yes, I accept your explanation of 'Of Heaven' and 'Heavenly' as far as you limited your explanation as it is ALSO PATENTLY CLEAR that 'Heavenly' also means 'Glorious' AND YOU MUST HAVE SEEN IT IN YOUR DICTIONARY ALSO but CHOSE TO IGNORE IT.
Both definitions then fit – but one fits better because it mentions the same words as used before 'Glorious'.
The natural body is sown in dishonour, it is raised in GLORY!
Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
Mikeboll – I seriously think you need a break from the forum.Several things you say in your response to my posts are so out of kilter that I wonder what world you live in.
For instance, the reference to my website has nothing to do with Scriptural postings. I post information about other matters.
My apologies. I thought you were saying that the things you post on THIS site are “your angels”, or came from “your angels” or something. I didn't know you run your own website – and so didn't make the connection. But I hardly think that my human misunderstanding indicates that I “need a break” or “live in a different world”.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
And another: I did not say that Jesus and GOD were one being… This is sheer nonsense because you know I am not a Trinitarian AND spoke AGAINST THIS with Kathi.But Jesus HIMSELF Said that he and his father were ONE;
It seems that you are upset because I've caught you in a game of words, huh? You are using “I and the Father are one” to defend Shimmer; and also to get out of answering my question about what separates Jesus and his God. But to use that as your defense, you must also then accept that “I and the Father are one” is to be taken literally, as if Jesus IS the Being of God Himself.But you DON'T believe that, do you? And since I am well aware that you DON'T believe this, my post was a way of jolting you into the reality of what you actually claimed. It worked too, didn't it?
So now that we both admittedly agree that Jesus is NOT the Being of God, but a completely separate being who has no sin, what IS IT that separates the ONE being of God from the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT being of Jesus?
Shimmer says she doesn't know, which is in itself an acknowledgement that it IS SOMETHING, but she just doesn't know what. When will YOU actually answer the point I've been making to you since the first page of this thread?
Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
I never ever said or would ever say God and Jesus are ONE BEING.
Okay……………then what is it that separates one from the other?Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
And, you swapping of references again: Are you saying that you never said SPIRITS HAVE BODIES – mike, so what are Angels?
What? When did I say they didn't? I have always maintained that they do, and have shown much scriptural support for my claim…………like Job 1.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
Yet you twaddle your argument when you get caught…
What?
It is YOU who can never seem to answer the direct points I throw at you. It is YOU who “twaddles” back and forth between “Jesus and God are one” and “Jesus is NOT the Being of God”. STAND AND DEFEND YOUR CLAIMS FOR ONCE, ISTARI. Show a little backbone for crying out loud.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
Only Jesus has a SPIRITUAL BODY … And he got it from being RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD.
First the NATURAL BODY – THEN the SPIRITUAL BODY!
So then you DO think that Jesus is more limited than the angels he commands, what with being the only one in heaven with a restraining body?
Istari, Paul NEVER implied that in order to get a spiritual body, one must first be human and then die. What he is teaching is that human beings must die in the flesh in order to get the spiritual body that angels were created with………..because flesh cannot inherit the Kindom of God.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,12:01)
And finally, yes, I accept your explanation of 'Of Heaven' and 'Heavenly' as far as you limited your explanation as it is ALSO PATENTLY CLEAR that 'Heavenly' also means 'Glorious' AND YOU MUST HAVE SEEN IT IN YOUR DICTIONARY ALSO but CHOSE TO IGNORE IT.
I posted the link to my “dictionary”………….check it out for yourself.Quote (Pastry @ May 14 2011,09:38) Hi Mike! I thought Gene was talking about Pierre insult…. Maybe I didn't read that right. Sorry…Peace Irene
Hi Irene,It was I who didn't read it right. You are correct and I misunderstood. Sorry.
peace,
mikeAll
I did not insult any one if i did ,then Peter also is condemned;
2Pe 2:2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2Pe 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.2Pe 2:12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
2Pe 2:13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.2Pe 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
2Pe 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.would you call this insults?
Pierre
Mike,
The book of Job is not meant to be taken literally. It is allegorical.Spirits don't sit down at tables in heaven.
I am surprised that you brought this – this has been gone over several times before in regard to SONS OF GOD and SATAN. Notice that 'Satan' went out but he did not personally do anything to Job but only influenced others. This is by the POWER OF THOUGHT – he PUT IT INTO THEIR MINDS to do the deeds they did.Coming and going are not as earthly coming and going.
I showed you earthly examples and analogies but you simply ignore them in your inimitable way and claim that you did not get an answer.
It's almost as if you are TRYING TO GET THE OTHER PERSON TO INSULT YOU SO YOU CAN USE YOUR POWER TO TILE THEM!
Mike, you really need to stop thinking of Immaterial things as though they were Material things.
You have an Embollism over this issue. Clear the blockage and you will see right.
SPIRIT is Immaterial – how is it said to Put off the Body and put on the Spirit?
Is Spirit Body mentioned?
Spirit, in earthly creatures, is what animates a body. I am sure any respectable dictionary has shown you this which you must have ignored because it speaks against you.What IS the definition of Spirit – does it say it is a body of Angels? Or anything like that? Absolutely not!!
No wonder you never present a definition but you are quick to present 'Heaven' and 'Heavenly'.
And Spirits being EVERYWHERE… what can you not understand about thus. I gave you example and analogy and you ignore them.
When the Spirit is to ACT in the physical world, it gathers itself in One place and acquires a Visible body with which to perform it's action. However, it will take the …form… of a human being so as to form a relationship with the mankind. Otherwise it could take ANY FORM IT DESIRES to enact its commission. It could even enter into the body of a human to give then strength beyond a normal human ability – or enhance their mind and strengthen their will ( as with the HOLY SPIRIT).Talking of which, how then does the Holy Spirit be in one and not in another? Be virtue of it being Spirit intelligence. Shared intelligence. Directed intelligence. Intelligent intelligence. Autonomous intelligence.
But keep posting what you post Mike. I love a good laugh from time to time.
(P.s. I can only imagine how it hurts you to keep having to refute reality – however, the pain is caused by your own desire to NOT SEE TRUTH)Gene,
Yes – you are right in that respect and regard concerning them. Even THOMAS believed when he was presented with proof – and Jesus admonished him, still ('Thomas, because you have seen you believe! Happy are those who DID NOT SEE and yet believe!' – because this is FAITH at work!!)
I just laugh at their impossible minds mostly – but at other times it annoys me that they twist what I say to try and refute what I say. Either they truly misread what I wrote (How many apologise when I rephrase it back to them?)
Or, they deliberately post nonsense to carry the point away from the truth that i posted.
Mike,
Are you saying that if is said of a good looking woman 'What a heavenly woman' it meant she was from heaven – or does it mean I this she is 'Wonderful, Glorious, A Star in my eyes, Celestial'
(Note: I never say 'Angel'. To call a human an 'Angel' is to remove the IMAGE OF GOD from them)Mike, you have a way (as before) of finding and presenting things that ONLY SAY what you want them to say and ignore OBVIOUS alternatives.
It is clear from the wording that virtually everything Paul speaks of is – as you say – for once – of or concerning the RAISING OF HUMANS from the dead.
There is not one single reference to Angels in 1 Corinthians 15, yet you manage to make it so through ignorance and deliberate misunderstanding.
One moment it is about raising the dead – the next it's about Spirit Bodies – which you then deny you ever mentioned yet in the next sentence you revisit what you claim you never said.
This is how one gets when one ends up confused about what one is saying… It's called 'Muddying the waters' and you are getting to be an expert (but Spiritual eyes see through earthly mud!)
Speaking of the demon Angel Satan influencing others to create havoc reminds me of the point Mike asked how Angel Gabriel could be 'delayed' 21 days 'fighting' with the Prince of Persia (Book of Daniel).
Can it not be analogised to events today with Colonel Gadaffi in Libya.
An 'Angel' is influencing the forces of 'good' to evict a force of 'evil' but yet the force of 'evil' is resisting the force of 'good'. How long now?
Is the 21 days in Daniel literal of figurative (Is '21 days' representative of something or is it literally 21 earth days. I think the former)
Mike WANTS to say that Gabriel HAD TO BE PHYSICALLY with the Prince of Persia PHYSICALLY fighting with him. Why? Because Mike wants to say that Angels have BODIES.
Mike, The Physical power of a human being could not possibly battle against the POWER OF AN ANGEL. If you believe that it could then you are far more ignorant than is worth debating anything with you!
But, God is impartial and requires that people do as he wills from a desire to do so until it is clear that things are untenable.
When he appoints those of high ranking, Powers, authorities, kings, lords, rulers… He gives due credit to their position and extends due regard to those in such positions as to the length of rope he reels out on them.This is clear from Satan's position that he is still existing… And then explain WHY he is still existing if he, Satan, is JUST A JESUS CREATED ANGEL! All other Demon Angels are cast down to the fifth heaven – if you once tried to understand DIMENSIONS you would understand far more about the Spiritual world!
A physical body cannot exist outside of the fourth dimension. Physical bodies are not the limit of created things from God.A body is a collection of like or different things – a body moves together as ONE unit and therefore can only be in ONE (unit) SPACE at any ONE (unit) TIME. do you understand this – you, your body, is in one place as one unit in one unit time. You MOVE by minute changes to your unit position in single units of time… You can ONLY MOVE to one unit position away from your current position at any single unit time.
But what if you could move to ANY unit position – ANY… in a single unit change of time!!
You could be in Arizona in one moment – then in Hawaii the next…
But not in BODY…
But in Mind…
But in Spirit…
But what would be the point – you could not do anything – you would need a BODY to enjoy the pleasure of the Hawaiian service.
You would want to enjoy the service because your current thought is as a human. A real Spirit has no such desire but I use the analogy to show that what a Spirit can do demands that it does not have a retraining BODY.Mike, you say that ANGELS have BODIES ADAPTED to the heavenly realm – Mike, do you know how ludicrous this is?? And you said it before – and I responded to this nonsense by this:
To Adapt to something means that it was first something else!
Mike, your imagination is stretching into the realm of sheer desperation even greater than I imagined EVEN YOU would go to.Mike, you are becoming a Prince of Persia!
The sad part is that you think I don't notice.
The saddest part is that you think you are clever for devising ludicrous ingenuous responses that are clearly designer misunderstandings (You DELIBERATELY post things as if you ACCIDENTLY misunderstand the point of my post – a kind of INVERSE COMPLEMENT – thank you!)And sadder than saddest is that you claim to be acting from Scriptures (On behalf of God!)
Mike, do you know what you are saying when you say that – do you realise the implication of that statement?Mike, you are only a master of one thing – you must accept that others may be better suited to certain things than you and you MUST give way to their mastership – if only by not RESISTING the greater from your own position of lacking (ok, that's not balanced but you know what I mean)
Ps…
Error from previous post:
'Devising ludicrous DISINGENUOUS ….'
– not
'Devising ludicrous INGENUOUS ….'Quote (Pastry @ May 15 2011,02:53) peace back to you………………………..gene[/quote]
Gene! Two wrongs will never, I mean NEVER make a RIGHT….Your logic lacks wisdom…..
About Adam, you really think so low of t8 that He takes sides… And banns Adam for nothing??? I don't believe that for a second….But then its Gene talking….
Peace Irene
Irene…….Right, BUT THEN AGAIN ,THAT IS JUST IRENE TALKING.“peace” back to you too…………………………gene
Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,13:29)
Mike,
The book of Job is not meant to be taken literally. It is allegorical.
Okay, I've seen the claim. Now show the scriptural proof that supports this claim.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,13:29)
Spirits don't sit down at tables in heaven.
Okay, I've seen the claim. Now show the scriptural proof that supports this claim.Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,13:29)
SPIRIT is Immaterial
Okay, I've seen the claim. Now show the scriptural proof that supports this claim.Are you seeing a pattern here Istari? You make many CLAIMS. But just because YOU claim it does not make it so, does it? Your CLAIMS are not worth the paper they're written on if you don't have scriptural support. Don't you understand this yet? I've been telling it to you for years – when will it sink in?
I don't base my scriptural understanding on the CLAIMS OF ISTARI. I base it on the actual words of scripture themselves. Maybe you should try it sometime. You'll most likely come up with conclusions that are more in line with mine if you ever decide to.
Now, where were we? Oh, that's right:
Quote So now that we both admittedly agree that Jesus is NOT the Being of God, but a completely separate being who has no sin, what IS IT that separates the ONE being of God from the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT being of Jesus? Shimmer says she doesn't know, which is in itself an acknowledgement that it IS SOMETHING, but she just doesn't know what. When will YOU actually answer the point I've been making to you since the first page of this thread?
I noticed you didn't answer this question……………AGAIN! For about the 100th time!
mike
Quote (Istari @ May 14 2011,13:49) Mike, Are you saying that if is said of a good looking woman 'What a heavenly woman' it meant she was from heaven – or does it mean I this she is 'Wonderful, Glorious, A Star in my eyes, Celestial'
(Note: I never say 'Angel'. To call a human an 'Angel' is to remove the IMAGE OF GOD from them)
No, I don't say that. I say that “heavenly” can mean either “things of heaven” or “things related to heaven”, as in something “divine”.And although YOU don't say “an angel”, many people do use “angel” to confer their view that a certain person is “heavenly”.
We've been through this with “spiritual” also. “Spiritual” can either refer to something belonging to a spirit, or to something relating to spirit.
Istari, the following is how I understand it:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The people on earth are like the man who was made from the dust of the earth. The people in heaven are like the man who came from heaven.The main reason I understand it this way is the word “ARE” that Paul uses. You understand it to mean that as Jesus is, so WILL BE those WHO WILL EVENTUALLY BE of heaven. But YOUR understanding does not match the word “ARE” that he uses. Paul actually says that as Jesus is, so ARE those [who already ARE] of heaven.
I'm sorry, but MY understanding accounts for the actual word Paul used, while YOURS does not.
And judging from the translation above, as well as the other ones I listed the other day, I'm not the only one who understands it this way.
We disagree, but only ONE of us is basing his understanding on the actual word Paul used.
mike
Quote (Istari @ May 15 2011,04:29) Mike WANTS to say that Gabriel HAD TO BE PHYSICALLY with the Prince of Persia PHYSICALLY fighting with him. Why? Because Mike wants to say that Angels have BODIES. Mike, The Physical power of a human being could not possibly battle against the POWER OF AN ANGEL. If you believe that it could then you are far more ignorant than is worth debating anything with you!
But Mike never claimed that the Prince of Persia was a human being, did he?I'll tell you what: If YOU clean up the questions that are already on your plate, I'll discuss how Daniel's angel further proves that angels have bodies, okay?
You claim that Satan's “coming and going” are not literal comings and goings. Why do you claim this? What scriptural support do you have for your claim?
I ask because unlike you, I have even more support for my understanding that I haven't even brought up yet. But I'd like to see yours first. Where is it? Let me have it. Or………………..could it be that it is ONLY your OPINIONS that you so often claim as if they are FACTS?
Anyway, I would truly love to discuss your thoughts about Daniel, and see how many of them actually align with the scriptures, but your lack of answers to my current questions seem to indicate that you already have to much on your plate. Let's clean your plate before piling more on it, okay?
mike
Mike
there is a dead horse here ,where over here,no over there ho i see ,no it is not there ,of cause not it is over here can you not see it ,ok i can see it now ,hey you say it was here but it is not here ,common men don't be dam I sew it why can you not see it ?i guess i am to dam like you say;
Pierre
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