Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ May 12 2011,15:22)

Only JESUS has a SPIRITUAL BODY.

So what of the billions of Angel Spirits?

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

May 13, 2011 at 12:31 am#245851

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ May 12 2011,13:02)

Was not John (Book of Revelation) taken up in Spirit to another place?…was he in a body when he was AT THAT PLACE?

Well, he fell down, cried, and bowed before an angel. He also helped an angel measure New Jerusalem with a measuring rod. All these things are things that can't be done without a body.

He was also able to see the souls of those who had been beheaded for Christ under the alter. How did he recognize that there was more than one soul under the alter unless they appeared to him as different forms?

How did John see the myriads upon myriads of angels? How did he know there was more than one of them if they didn't have something separating one from the other?

Many questions abound – the majority of which you have ignored from beginning of this thead, Istari.

Here's another one: How can an angel come into the presence of God and leave from the presence of God if both God and the angels are “everywhere all the time”? (Wouldn't they then be in each other's presence all the time?)

I would really like an answer to these questions and the tornado one.

mike

May 13, 2011 at 2:21 am#245861

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1299

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2011,12:31)

Well, he fell down, cried, and bowed before an angel. He also helped an angel measure New Jerusalem with a measuring rod. All these things are things that can't be done without a body.

How did John see the myriads upon myriads of angels? How did he know there was more than one of them if they didn't have something separating one from the other?

Many questions abound – the majority of which you have ignored from beginning of this thead, Istari.

I would really like an answer to these questions and the tornado one.

mike

Mike,

Its called anthropomorphism. Its a way of showing things so we can see them. And Revelations is a book of symbolism.
—————————–

We have seen that God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form. But there are passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that God does possess a body.

Eyes

The Bible says that God has eyes.
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him (2 Chronicles 16:9).

Arms

Scripture speaks of the arms of God.
And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm (Deuteronomy 5:15).

Hands

The Bible records God speaking about His own hands.
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations (Isaiah 65:2)

Fingers

Scripture attributes finger to God.
The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said (Exodus 8:19).

Feet

The Bible says that God has feet.
You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: (Psalm 8:6)

These Are Not To Be Taken Literally

These verses are not to be taken literally. They are known as anthropomorphism (assigning human characteristics to God). The descriptions are to be understood as metaphors that describe in finite human terms, the characteristics of the infinite God. Humankind can better understand and identify with God when He is described as having an outstretched arm, eyes that see everywhere, a mighty hand.

It Would Be A Strange Looking Being

If one wishes to take these references to God's character literally then they will wind up with a very interesting-looking being. Consider these verses:

Feathers And Wings

The psalmist speaks of the feathers and wings of God.
He shall cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you shall trust (Psalm 91:4).

Sword For A Tongue

John wrote about God's tongue is like a sword.
He had in his right hand seven stars, out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword (Revelation 1:16).

A Door

Jesus said that He was a door.
Jesus said: “I am the door” (John 10:9).

Fire

The writer to the Hebrews stated:
For our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29).
By taking these verses literally God would look like a bird, have a sword for a tongue, would be made of wood, and would function as a furnace!

Summary

In many passages in Scripture God is described as having bodily parts. The Bible describes God's eyes, arms, hand, fingers, and feet. These images are not to be understood literally. The technical term for them is anthropomorphism. This is the attributing of physical characteristics to God. Rather than literal descriptions of God's Person, they are rather descriptive pictures that the Bible uses to help us better understand the varied character of God.

May 13, 2011 at 2:57 am#245864

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ May 12 2011,20:21)

We have seen that God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form.

Well Shimmer,

That IS the topic of this thread, but no one has shown me from scripture that spirits don't have a form. No one has even shown me that God has no form. Phil 2:6 seems to imply that He does. So while the OPINION of your source is that any reference to God's body is purely metaphorical, it is not a scriptural fact.

I still propose that in order for ANY being in existence to be kept as a separate individual, there has to be some kind of outer perimeter separating that individual from all the other beings in existence. If God has no outer perimeter, then He is everywhere and everything all the time. He is Satan in heaven as well as Satan on earth. He is you and me, which therefore means that you and I are God Almighty.

Can you at least acknowledge the point I'm making? Shimmer, if you are not God Almighty, then there is something separating what IS the Being of God Almighty from what is the being of Shimmer.

mike

May 13, 2011 at 4:42 am#245866

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2011,14:57)

Quote (shimmer @ May 12 2011,20:21)

We have seen that God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form.

Well Shimmer,

Can you at least acknowledge the point I'm making? Shimmer, if you are not God Almighty, then there is something separating what IS the Being of God Almighty from what is the being of Shimmer.

mike

Mike,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters (does water have a face? Ok, I wont go there!).

And God said “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God seperated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Mike, does light have a form? Does darkness have a form? Something to think about.

—————————–

The light and dark literal and spiritual meaning

(1st john 2):

The darkness is passing away, and the true light already shines. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother, is in the darkness even until now. He who loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no occasion for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness, and doesn't know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

—————————-

1 John 1:5 -“God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

And John 1:1.

Literal light can be contained in a body such as when the door is shut in a room… If God is light and God is love and God is spirit (cant concentrate my son is talking…just thinking)….

May 13, 2011 at 5:02 am#245867

Participant

shimmer

Quote

Mike, does light have a form? Does darkness have a form? Something to think about.

if it as no form how is it that God could separated from other forms ?

Pierre

May 13, 2011 at 5:06 am#245869

Participant

shimmer

Quote

1 John 1:5 -“God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

what do you think is the light that God is?

remember God is spirit ,and he can not been seen ?

Pierre

May 13, 2011 at 5:13 am#245871

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1299

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ May 13 2011,22:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2011,14:57)

Quote (shimmer @ May 12 2011,20:21)

We have seen that God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form.

Well Shimmer,

Can you at least acknowledge the point I'm making? Shimmer, if you are not God Almighty, then there is something separating what IS the Being of God Almighty from what is the being of Shimmer.

mike

Mike,

Mike, does light have a form? Does darkness have a form? Something to think about.

—————————–

The light and dark literal and spiritual meaning

(1st john 2):

—————————-

1 John 1:5 -“God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

And John 1:1.

Literal light can be contained in a body such as when the door is shut in a room… If God is light and God is love and God is spirit (cant concentrate my son is talking…just thinking)….

shimmer

read your bible again,look ;Ge 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
Ge 1:15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.
Ge 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
Ge 1:17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
Ge 1:18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day

all this was the fourth day;

you talk about the first day;Ge 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

I believe they talking about two different lights and dakness

Pierre

May 13, 2011 at 8:31 am#245875

Istari

Participant

Ha ha ha – these last few posts have made teas roll down my face – they are hilarious.

And someone asks why they are ridiculed!!
And another wonders why they are ignored!!

Shimmer, you posts are SPOT ON. Excellent – you have the blessing that is devoid in others – take godly heart from Him who gave you the formless spirit to occupy and animate your formed body.

Anyone notice how the PERTENANT parts of my posts are ignored and the other parts responded to with earthly fleshly thinking?

For instance, one say: A tornado is visible… But a wind – so wind has a form.

When I responded that one claimed he had not been responded to – this is his pattern of misbehaviour when he sees a good post (Claim he hasn't been responded to – he wants to hear what he wrote ONLY!)

The GREEK SEEK WISDOM – but no wisdom will be shown them for they will be sent a formless spirit of delusion…

But none the less – hear is a call for wisdom – let him who has an ear – hear. And let him who has an eye – see!

Jesus used the analogy of wind for Spirit. Why? It is not because man would not come to SEE the wind nor that there were no such things as 'Bodies of wind' (Column of Wind in the dessert) but because he was not being a SCIENTIST but applying simple analogical principles: Wind comes from nowhere, does what it does, and passes onto unseen places…! Simple-as-that.

How could anyone – even now, try as i might to show dimensions explains it, explain Spirit, to people in those times (and the scriptures are timeless)?
From where does a Spirit come?
To where does a Spirit go?
How does a Spirit BECOME a VISIBLE BODY?
Say,
How does the INVISIBLE FORMLESS AIR become a VISIBLE FORMED BODY that can directly interact with such immense power on matter. And then disappear again to nothing?

Air is all around you.
Spirit is all around you.
Spirit is like invisible (intelligent) energy – when harnessed in ONE PLACE it becomes potent.
When unrequired – it dissipates and becomes harmless.

SPIRIT is NOT WIND… Wind (air in motion) is used as the nearest easiest analogy to how unseen invisible formless immaterial SPIRIT (For so 'Spirit' is defined) can be mindfully thought of)

So being Scientific about it is not an avenue to go down. In fact, it shows incredible waywardness in attempting to directly and deliberately NOT understand.

To see in the Spirit and by the Spirit you must be in the Spirit.
Daniel and John were 'taken up' (out of their confinement of body) to see the Spiritual world of God… They could NOT have seen it with mortal fleshly earthly eyes.
And even then, their writing of the events had to be analogised back to human earthly fleshly levels (How can Spirit move so quickly to come and go – well they knew that birds could do that so….Angels with wings!
How can Spirits move things: well, we have hands…
How can Spirits speak: we have a mouth….
Expand…)
Spirits don't have mouths… Mouths are limited noise creation centres for flesh bodied creatures. Does not the wind 'Speak' – did not God speak in THUNDER AND LIGHTENING such that the Israelites begged him to stop and give them a human mouth to hear through (Moses and Aaron)
Did not God speak in a thunder to his Son at the baptism – such that some said: An angel spoke to him and others that it thundered ..why? The intelligence manipulated the best medium through which to VOICE it's words (to those who could understand)
God WALKED through the garden in paradise – walked!!!
No, not with feet like ours but with the elements of power in the world.
Adam and eve hid from the power of God walking (Perhaps as a storm – perhaps as a gentle but powerfilled breeze(!!).
God showed himself to another but warned them not to look directly at him – no that one did not see God but only that much of himself – his POWERFUL FORCE that they could stand ( god knows our limits and has no wish to destroy us willinilly)
So, again, the Spirit is a FORCE, ENERGY, intelligence that can harness the elements of the physical world to act in the physical world.
The BODY that becomes VISIBLE is only the harnessed elements of the physical world – this then is called BODY ..

And a BODY.. cannot enter Heaven.

May 13, 2011 at 2:17 pm#245888

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ May 13 2011,13:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2011,12:31)

Well, he fell down, cried, and bowed before an angel. He also helped an angel measure New Jerusalem with a measuring rod. All these things are things that can't be done without a body.

How did John see the myriads upon myriads of angels? How did he know there was more than one of them if they didn't have something separating one from the other?

Many questions abound – the majority of which you have ignored from beginning of this thead, Istari.

I would really like an answer to these questions and the tornado one.

mike

Mike,

Its called anthropomorphism. Its a way of showing things so we can see them. And Revelations is a book of symbolism.
—————————–

We have seen that God is defined as spirit and a spirit does not have a physical form. But there are passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that God does possess a body.

Eyes

The Bible says that God has eyes.
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him (2 Chronicles 16:9).

Arms

Hands

The Bible records God speaking about His own hands.
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations (Isaiah 65:2)

Fingers

Scripture attributes finger to God.
The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said (Exodus 8:19).

Feet

The Bible says that God has feet.
You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: (Psalm 8:6)

These Are Not To Be Taken Literally

It Would Be A Strange Looking Being

If one wishes to take these references to God's character literally then they will wind up with a very interesting-looking being. Consider these verses:

Feathers And Wings

The psalmist speaks of the feathers and wings of God.
He shall cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you shall trust (Psalm 91:4).

Sword For A Tongue

John wrote about God's tongue is like a sword.
He had in his right hand seven stars, out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword (Revelation 1:16).

A Door

Jesus said that He was a door.
Jesus said: “I am the door” (John 10:9).

Fire

Summary

Shimmer ………I agree with JA a most excellent Post little one, the Scriptures are full of Metaphoric language about God and also other beings as Satan and Spirits being He's and She's like, i.e Wisdom being described as a She. Your right on little one. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

May 13, 2011 at 9:44 pm#245893

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2011,17:13)

shimmer

all this was the fourth day;

you talk about the first day;Ge 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

I believe they talking about two different lights and dakness

Pierre

Terrarica, I lost my track of thought when my son kept interuppting. It might come back. There is a repetition of this in Genesis. I think that for everything literal such as day and night light and dark there is a spiritual light and dark, just as there was a literal temple of stone and a spiritual it being the body, there is the world and the kingdoms of it, and there is the kingdom of heaven. And more but I cant think right now.

May 13, 2011 at 9:46 pm#245894

Participant

Istari thanks, I liked your post, funny. And Gene I like that – 'little one' thats like in the Bible. I guess were all 'little ones' arent we.

May 13, 2011 at 10:29 pm#245896

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ May 14 2011,15:44)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2011,17:13)

shimmer

all this was the fourth day;

you talk about the first day;Ge 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

I believe they talking about two different lights and dakness

Pierre

Shimmer

i can not respond we are out of topic

Pierre

May 13, 2011 at 10:42 pm#245898

Blocked

Pierre,

I'm confused. Are these three really patting each other on the back while refusing to answer very simple points we've made? Too funny, man!

Istari, in one post, you mention Jesus' words that spirits ARE like the wind…………but also YOUR assertion that spirits are NOT like the wind. You claim to know what was in Jesus' head when he made that comparison between spirit and wind. Yet here is what he said to Nicodemus: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Do you see the bolded words Istari? This is another one of the points I've made in this thread that has been ignored by you. If there is EVER a place where something IS at the same time there are places where that thing ISN'T, then there is something that is SEPARATING where that thing IS from where is ISN'T. What I've said is supported by the words of Jesus here. If wind COMES FROM somewhere and GOES TO somewhere, then it is NOT “everywhere all the time” like you've claimed spirits to be. And Jesus says that as it is with wind, so it is with spirits in this regard.

You claim that a tornado is NOT a body of wind, yet it is. You claim that they don't have things like tornados in the desert, yet I live in the desert of Arizona, and frequently see mini-tornados. They call them “dust devils” here…………maybe you could Google it and see a picture of one of these visible BODIES of wind. (Keep in mind that they are only visible to humans because of the dust blowing around inside of them.) Which brings me back to my original point: If there was no dust or anything we could see floating around in these bodies of wind, would they then cease to be bodies of wind just because we can't see them anymore?

Istari, I fear that, like Gene, you and Shimmer also consider the word “body” to mean hands and feet and a nose and torso, etc. But a cloud in the sky is a body. A gaseous cloud of space dust is a body. A lake is a body of water.

Consider this: You are looking at an arial view of two side by side lakes with a thin strip of land separating the two. What happens if those lakes flood over the top of that land? Without that thin strip of land to SEPARATE one lake from the other lake, those TWO bodies of water blend together forming only ONE body of water.

This is also what would happen with spirits. Without something to separate one spirit from the other, they would also blend together like the lakes, forming ONE spirit out of two. Which brings me to the point I made to Shimmer:

Shimmer, asking a question about whether or not darkness has a form does not answer MY question: WHAT IS IT THAT SEPARATES GOD ALMIGHTY FROM SHIMMER?

This is the very simple point Pierre and I have both been trying to get to the bottom of since I started this thread – the separation issue. If there are ever more than one thing, there also must be something that separates one of those things from the other thing(s). Without that separation, there would not be MORE THAN ONE THING, but ONLY ONE THING – because all things would then blend together into ONE THING. Sort of like the flood of Noah's day. Many, many individual bodies of water eventually became only one body of water that covered the entire earth.

So Shimmer, could you do me the solid of actually ANSWERING my question to you? Could you tell me what it is that separates the Being of God from the being of Shimmer?

Thanks,
mike

May 13, 2011 at 10:49 pm#245899

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 14 2011,10:29)

Shimmer

i can not respond we are out of topic

Pierre

Pierre, your right.

May 13, 2011 at 10:56 pm#245900

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Orthodox_theology)

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2011,10:42)

So Shimmer, could you do me the solid of actually ANSWERING my question to you? Could you tell me what it is that separates the Being of God from the being of Shimmer?

Mike, sin (seperates us from God).
Theosis is the drawing near to God (you should read up on it)

Mike, God lives in us.

May 13, 2011 at 11:06 pm#245903

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2011,16:42)

Pierre,

I'm confused. Are these three really patting each other on the back while refusing to answer very simple points we've made? Too funny, man!

Shimmer, asking a question about whether or not darkness has a form does not answer MY question: WHAT IS IT THAT SEPARATES GOD ALMIGHTY FROM SHIMMER?

So Shimmer, could you do me the solid of actually ANSWERING my question to you? Could you tell me what it is that separates the Being of God from the being of Shimmer?

Thanks,
mike

Mike

that is what they do ,they are not guided by the truth and they know it ,but they do not care ,they have there understanding and that s what counts to them ,so they looking for some new people who they can con viced of there view.

this is well seen in the answers they give ;look at shimmer ,Paladin,JA,and gene,no truth there they are basing there views on the things they do not understand,no light there only darkness of the spirit.

I will no longer respond to them you know what Jesus says about our Perle's.

Pierre

May 13, 2011 at 11:33 pm#245904

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 14 2011,11:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2011,16:42)

Pierre,

I'm confused. Are these three really patting each other on the back while refusing to answer very simple points we've made? Too funny, man!

Shimmer, asking a question about whether or not darkness has a form does not answer MY question: WHAT IS IT THAT SEPARATES GOD ALMIGHTY FROM SHIMMER?

So Shimmer, could you do me the solid of actually ANSWERING my question to you? Could you tell me what it is that separates the Being of God from the being of Shimmer?

Thanks,
mike

Mike

I will no longer respond to them you know what Jesus says about our Perle's.

Pierre

Terra, I reported your post. It seems you never stop being rude and judgmental to people. I should have followed my intuition and NOT replied to you. YES IGNORE ME… PLEASE!

May 13, 2011 at 11:57 pm#245906