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Irene,
Quote Jesus is seated at the right hand of Almighty God. How can they sit, and how can they be different without some kind of form, to be able to recognize each other… Irene, I dont believe thats a literal throne that Jesus sits on. I think its a description of where Jesus is in power, what authority has been given to him.
When I saw Jesus in a vision, he was on a horse in the air, and he didnt look happy either. He looked angered and upset at what the world had become. Just thought id share that bit.Just as Istari said
Quote God does not SIT on a physical throne in heaven.
Jesus does not physically SIT next to God
The elders and Seraphims and Cherubims don't STAND in front of the throne.These are all symbolisms for giving a HUMAN PHYSICAL FLESH VIEW of THE IMMATERIAL REALM.
And what I saw, obviously was just shown to me in a way I could understand and see. (otherwise I wouldnt get it)
It was showing me I think that Jesus isnt happy with what is going on down here.I think all of these were really good points. Thankyou Istari. I just had a good read!!
Quote But REMEMBER please please please… Revelation is SYMBOLIC.
Please don't read the symbolism as direct translation to human understanding…
You need the right KEYS to each symbolic reference.
Some may be easy but you can bet many others will be misinterpreted.Quote It is certainly true that those saved to heaven from the first resurrection will have Spiritual bodies with which they will enter their spirits into when they are on earth. When they are in heaven they will be in their Spirit only. Only Spirits exist in the Spirit realm.
Those saved out of the second resurrection will have fixed bodies of normal flesh which retain the spirit as they do today. Their Spirit cannot leave their bodies.
Those of heaven will be able to come and go from and back to the heavenly realm as they please and enter into recogniseable flesh bodies when on earth and out them off when entering heaven in spirit.
Quote Spirit is like thought: think where you want to be and you are there – in the twinkling of an eye!! A Spirit needs no food – Food is required to sustain a body.
A spirit does not sleep for sleep is only to rest a body.
A Spirit cannot be harmed by flame, cold, weapons, depth of pressure nor fear by height for there are no elements to be affected by these forces of energy.
A spirit is unaffected by barriers, boundaries, Walls or Borders for it materialises where it wills.
Quote The question you ask then is 'How does Spirit have a body'? And the inter-reply is 'What is a Body'?
A body is an enclosed set of elements that form a discernible shape and move together in the main as one unit.
A body thus occupies a volume of space and is bound together in what can be called a 'skin'.
This skin is used to retain the BODY of elements – a balloon 'skin' retains a BODY of air (gas) separate from all surrounding air (gas).
Someone will now say that (on earth) that air is a Body held by the skin that is the atmosphere .. So big deal… What's your point!!
Well, what if that skin of atmosphere where removed as on, say, Mars or the Moon? Where is that air (gas) now and is it still a body?
Obviously, No! For that air is EVERYWHERE in the universe. It is SPIRIT… only when the gas comes together in one place acting as a unit does it become – A Body!Water, is made up of two elemental atoms, hydrogen and oxygen. They exist separately everywhere…they are gas in free form – Spirit. But when they come together in precise proportions they form Water molecules (single unit body) and when these water molecules gather together in a Skin of a container they form a (full) BODY of water but only as long as they are contained…
But all this is still MATERIAL MATTER so please don't overanalyse …
So, the Spiritual Body… We differ on the emphasis of the two words.
You emphasise 'spiritual BODY'
I emphasise 'SPIRITUAL body'If the statement were 'Glorified and Sinless Body' would we differ in understanding?
SPIRITUAL does not mean SPIRIT else Paul would have said 'SPIRIT BODY'
What other phrases can SPIRITUAL appear in and would you believe it were referring to Angels or God? For sure, it PERTAINS to THE SPIRIT but not A Spirit!
The Spiritual body is a glorified body… And Jesus most certainly was raised in a Spiritual body: Sinless, Righteous, incorruptible, undying…
Jesus Showed his glorified body to hundreds of followers as well as the Disciples and the women… He showed them the holes made by the nails from his crucifixion.
Ask: why were they not healed as easily as Jesus himself healed many in his former life?
Simple: to act as proof AND a memorial to his sacrifice.Ask why his Disciples did not recognise him straight off?
Simple: His body was changed from the haggardness of human nature (The capacity to Sin – though Jesus didn't sin, the capacity to decay and die, retention of the spirit – the animator of the body)
To the beauty of the unblemished and pure Spiritualness of a Sinless body of flesh.A Spirit[UAL] Body… What concept is this?
Does scriptures not say that God did not suffer to let Jesus' body see Corruption?Jesus was ONLY in the grave for three days and nights before being raised again.
Lazarus was in the grave FOUR DAYS and was still in his original body when he was raised.
But Lazarus' body was not glorified but went on to see corruption when he died later in time!Irene, the Spirit does not change but returns to God who gave it.
In the resurrection new bodies of undying flesh will be made for those who asked to life. Their Spirits held by God will be put in those bodies … But those of the first resurrection will also be able to live outside of their glorified bodies as Spirits in heaven with Christ.Quote There is a natural body… That is succeptible to sin, that grows old and dies and goes to corruption back as dust to the earth.
And there is a Spiritual Body… That cannot sin, that does not grow old and does not die nor see corruption.Quote Contemplate the Spiritual:
– Spiritual intercourse (To interact with love and kindness)
– Spiritual Nature (To act in a glorified manner)
– Spiritual eye … (To see with godliness in mind)
– Spiritual Mind … (To think with godliness)
– Spiritual Worship (Worship in Spirit – Godliness)
– Spiritual Brethren (like minded in godliness)
– Spiritual …!!Quote God does not SIT on a physical throne in heaven.
Jesus does not physically SIT next to God
The elders and Seraphims and Cherubims don't STAND in front of the throne.These are all symbolisms for giving a HUMAN PHYSICAL FLESH VIEW of THE IMMATERIAL REALM.
Quote Fles
h is a restrained restricted watered down meagre weak powerless form of the spirit
Flesh copies the Spirit in a completely limited constrained way:
we can only see what is in front of us within a small spectrum of light
We can only touch what we can feel of a certain degree
We can only hear a limited range of sound
We can only move at a very limited speed
We are limited to boundaries due to keeping our flesh bodies whole at all times – our senses help to keep us from DAMAGING our fragile bodies
We have limited power to stop us hurting ourselves or going beyond the bounds of the constrains of the earthQuote (Istari @ April 25 2011,14:45) Irene,
'Sit' .. Please please Please… Irene, please…Spirits don't have bodies to SIT, Stand, look, hear, touch – whatever..
But they come into, and leave from, the presence of God. How can they “come” and “go” if they don't have something distinguishing where they ARE from where they ARE NOT?mike
Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2011,02:15) Lets assume you are correct at there is an inferred “All” in that passage. It does not state enter. It states “inherit” which means “come into possession of”.
Yes, let's DO assume that, since it says nothing to specify any particular kind of flesh.
And do you believe that Jesus has “come into possession of” the Kingdom of God at this time, Kerwin?
mike
Quote (Istari @ April 26 2011,08:30) Gene, When did I ever say that Spirit was body…?
I said Spirit was intelligence in Power – power, Energy with intelligence.
Spirit, that which animates the body in flesh…
I never ever once said ever not even once said 'Spirit is body'.
I went out of my way to show and explain how Spirit is NOT body…
Over and over and over and yet again – Spirit does not have body….post after post after post….Spirit is not body…
And then Gene says to me: Hey JA: you are wrong – Spirit is NOT BODY!!
Well, ok, thank you, Gene. I now understand – Spirit is not Body!
JA……….Sorry for the mix up JA, i was not referencing you as saying Spirits have bodies , i was talking about Irene saying, spiritual “Bodies” and just relaying it to you brother, I know you do not believe Spirits are bodies as i do not also. I do agree with most of what you have written about Spirits, as i said i really don't think we are that far apart on this. I see Spirit as the Power of Intellect existing in all of Gods creation that causes it to exist and have its being. You example of radio waves was good and fits in demonstrating how Spirit functions.peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,10:54) Istari! First I want to say this. Look what it says in verse 44 1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
I also looked up celestial bodies up in our Random House Dictionary. It says this
1.) pertaining to the Spiritual Heaven; heavenly divine celestial bliss. God is divine, Jesus now is divine. So when I say Spirit Being, there is nothing wrong with that. There is a wide realm of what celestial is. It is not only heavenly divine spiritual bodies. But when Humans are resurrected some will have Spiritual Bodies. Scripture do say that, in verse 44…..And I found this on the Internet
They all have form….
!st Corinthians 15: 35 and on………terrestrial have to do with natural body's given to earthly life plants come from a seed and given a body all of it's own if you will, animals same, but they do not grow out of ground obviously, Humans the same way.There are terrestrial and celestial body's
angels have celestial. Paul explains a process with us humans, If we are In Christ our body's die a terrestial body, he compares it to a seed that unless it is planted in the ground it remains useless.
The same with a true christian, when we die, the undertaker puts us in coffin and lowers us 6 feet or whatever and we are raised with a celestial or immortal body, the same kind of body Jesus had after he rose from dead, he appeared to disciples and ladies for 40 days, he walked through walls………………………………..Peace and love Irene
Karmaria, yiou need to look at these Scriptures, wether Jesus is seated at the right hand of His Father, is not the point. The point is that there are Spiritual Bodies in Heaven….. Scriptures I showed proves it.,..IreneQuote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,07:30) Sorry about all the posts. Ok, ill be quiet:)
It is rather hard to have a conversation with someone who chooses not to hold up their end.Rather than be quiet, just try to combine similar posts if possible.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,07:36) Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2011,02:15) Lets assume you are correct at there is an inferred “All” in that passage. It does not state enter. It states “inherit” which means “come into possession of”.
Yes, let's DO assume that, since it says nothing to specify any particular kind of flesh.And do you believe that Jesus has “come into possession of” the Kingdom of God at this time, Kerwin?
mike
He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth but not everything has been placed under his feet.Still you probably mean has he received eternal life yet. If so then the answer is yes. He received eternal life in sync with his resurrection.
He ascended to heaven afterwards to sit beside his God and our God.
My question to all was and is “can a human body enter the third heaven?” No one has answered that question explicitly but I believe some have answered using implication.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2011,18:13) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,07:30) Sorry about all the posts. Ok, ill be quiet:)
It is rather hard to have a conversation with someone who chooses not to hold up their end.Rather than be quiet, just try to combine similar posts if possible.
Thanks for the advice Kerwin.Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,16:39) Karmaria, yiou need to look at these Scriptures, wether Jesus is seated at the right hand of His Father, is not the point. The point is that there are Spiritual Bodies in Heaven….. Scriptures I showed proves it.,..Irene
Irene, I really think its one of those things that we will never know, though we try to. This thread could go on and on.We should all just grasp onto whatever we think. The important thing is that Jesus was risen, and is in his Glorified Heavenly body now.
Some people though, such as Enoch, had far greater knowledge than others. If someone else has knowledge, then it should be taken as a possibility, though we don't know for certain.
But we can choose how we view things.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2011,16:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,07:36) Quote (kerwin @ April 25 2011,02:15) Lets assume you are correct at there is an inferred “All” in that passage. It does not state enter. It states “inherit” which means “come into possession of”.
Yes, let's DO assume that, since it says nothing to specify any particular kind of flesh.And do you believe that Jesus has “come into possession of” the Kingdom of God at this time, Kerwin?
mike
He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth but not everything has been placed under his feet.Still you probably mean has he received eternal life yet. If so then the answer is yes. He received eternal life in sync with his resurrection.
He ascended to heaven afterwards to sit beside his God and our God.
My question to all was and is “can a human body enter the third heaven?” No one has answered that question explicitly but I believe some have answered using implication.
Kerwin. No flesh an blood can enter the Kingdom of God.1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The Kingdom will come when Jesus returns. Right now its in our hearts. But the King is seated at the right hand of Almighty God.
You can't have a kingdom without a King, can you???
Jesus also received immortality and will never die again. If He would have had immorality before, He couldn't have died for us.Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
He is deity like His Father.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is this hard to understand? I think yes, but with Gods Holy Spirit it is. Georg had to show me this, because some one asked me about just that….Now I know….Thanks be to GOD and our SAvior Jesus Christ, now and forever,,,
Peace ireneIrene,
Please reread First Corinthians 15:50 again and you will see the word is “inherent” and not “enter”. Those two words mean different things.
For example a man inherits a house while his visitor who enters the same house does not inherit it.
As for me stating that God has not yet placed everything under the feet of Jesus, Scripture states the same in Hebrews 2:8.
As for Jesus being the Son of God, John addresses that matter in John 1:12-13.
As for Jesus being a deity like God, so are all that believe in him according to 2 Peter 1:4.
As for Revelations 19:13-16, Jesus is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit to the extent that God declared that everything in heaven and on earth must go through him to approach God and the Spirit of God is called the Word. That makes the Word of God an apt title for Jesus.
I covered the intent of John 5:26 in my comments above. Jesus reign is in our hearts doing his work and when everything is finished then he will be King of all. Currently this world is in rebellion.
Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,12:21) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2011,18:13) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,07:30) Sorry about all the posts. Ok, ill be quiet:)
It is rather hard to have a conversation with someone who chooses not to hold up their end.Rather than be quiet, just try to combine similar posts if possible.
Thanks for the advice Kerwin.
You are welcome!Feel free to share your own.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2011,19:59) Irene, Please reread First Corinthians 15:50 again and you will see the word is “inherent” and not “enter”. Those two words mean different things.
For example a man inherits a house while his visitor who enters the same house does not inherit it.
As for me stating that God has not yet placed everything under the feet of Jesus, Scripture states the same in Hebrews 2:8.
As for Jesus being the Son of God, John addresses that matter in John 1:12-13.
As for Jesus being a deity like God, so are all that believe in him according to 2 Peter 1:4.
As for Revelations 19:13-16, Jesus is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit to the extent that God declared that everything in heaven and on earth must go through him to approach God and the Spirit of God is called the Word. That makes the Word of God an apt title for Jesus.
I covered the intent of John 5:26 in my comments above. Jesus reign is in our hearts doing his work and when everything is finished then he will be King of all. Currently this world is in rebellion.
Kerwin! Is Jesus in Heaven with His Father right now? When you inherit a house will you be living in it, or even go into it? Will Jesus come again and be a King?So you really believe that John 1:1 -14 is Gods Holy Spirit that became flesh???
Take a closer look at verse 14
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH…..
That is not Gods Holy Spirit, but Gods only begotten Son, who became Jesus…..and Rev. 19:13? How can you deny it isn't Jesus. Does that description fit any body else? I don't think so…..
Jesus will reign as a King….
Will He give the Kingdom back to God after all have been made subject to Him?
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The question is will Jesus come to be a King, and reign on this earth for a thousand years? I know He will. He will put all under Him. All those who hear Him will be in the Kingdom of God. Those who don't will die. And many will, after Satan who was bound for a thousand years, will be loosed again. All written in Rev.
The question also is, is Jesus a Spirit Being now, or not?
we have to look again in Corinth. 15 the resurrection chapter.1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The last verse talks about all those who will be a Sprint Being and reign with Jesus. You do agree that not all will be Spirit Beings? I think so, the meek will inherit the earth.
Jesus has a Spiritual Body, and those that want to be in His Kingdom and Gods Kingdom will have to be a Spirit. Nobody will live in this flesh and be able to even see Jesus even from the back. His is as bright as the Sun, just like His Father is……..
Rev. 21 tells us that God will come down from Heaven with the New Jerusalem, and will be with men. Do you think that any body that is not a Spirit Being will be able to see either Jehovah God or Jesus who is like His Father? I don't think so…. .
Peace Irene
Kerwin………… I believe No Physical flesh and blood Being of any kind (BY IT SELF) Can inherit anything. That would be like saying the House can inherit a man, that is not possible, neither does a physical any thing inherit a Spiritual thing. The spirit (IN) and through SPIRIT inherits the Spiritual things of GOD. A man is a LIVING SOUL, and through the Spirit (IN) him he can inherit . Because of the Spirit (IN) HIM, rather he is Flesh and Blood or Flesh and Bone as Jesus was. He being clothed with a body can inherit anything from GOD the Father. But it is not the Flesh that is inheriting it but the complete being which does include what ever he is clothed with. Jesus is flesh and Bone and will return in the same way and with what he inherited from GOD with that Body he is clothed with. Matter can not inherit anything because it is matter . Mixing Matter with Spirit Inheritance doesn't work , but to say a mans Body is not with him because He inherits something is foolish IMO>
peace and love to you and your Kerwin………………………………………gene
Irene,
What is the NATURE of the SPIRITUAL BODY that Jesus has?
If Spirits have bodies then how is it ONLY JESUS has one?
Are Angels not Spirits
Is God not SPIRIT?
Yet only JESUS has a Spirit Body, You say!
Yet only JESUS has a Spiritual Body, You say!So Jesus has something that even God does not have?
Quote (Istari @ April 28 2011,15:30) Irene, What is the NATURE of the SPIRITUAL BODY that Jesus has?
If Spirits have bodies then how is it ONLY JESUS has one?
Are Angels not Spirits
Is God not SPIRIT?
Yet only JESUS has a Spirit Body, You say!
Yet only JESUS has a Spiritual Body, You say!So Jesus has something that even God does not have?
astarithis question has been answer in this topic more than ones
you are kicking a dead horse
Pierre
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