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The thread is not “over” Gene.
Others might want to still discuss this at some later time. I don't know why Istari said to “close” the thread, since it's not a debate, but an open thread.
Hi Gene,
Do you believe God's spirit is in all of God's creation?
Do you believe God is infinite? Therefore, having no limiting parameter or form?
I do. I used these 2 premises to to build my entire speculative exploration of this issue.
I used the following logic to justify a spirit has form:Quote My friend, I am as open-minded as they come. I can agree that spirits are an energy form. In order for an energy-form to exist in any given medium it must have a quality to it that differentiates it from the medium it exists in, otherwise, it would be one with the medium thereby losing it's own cohesiveness and have no discernable identity or would dissolve to chaos having no order. This “skin” could be powered by God and therefore be infinitely transmutable and able to to do all the things you express. None the less, it would have a type of form.
In order for a spirit(intellect) to exist and have meaning or serve a purpose it must have a form. Next in the order of discussing things is the topic of this thread. Do spirits have bodies? This may be a semantic issue more than anything else. Let's use Jesus's method of talking about earthly things to describe heavenly things(i.e. mustard seed, yeast, so forth). OK. We have a book on our bookshelf entitled “Homeowners Do-It-Yourself Manual”. This book contains written works of knowledge and instructions. We can and many do call this a body of knowledge. Therefore, a spirit could be said to have a body. It's body(that which is in the interior of it's form) would in no wise be conformable to physical laws. It exists out-side of physical laws. Put another way; the Logos is spirit that is NOT God Himself(i.e. a created spirit). The reema that describe, define and clarify this spirit are the reema that state the spirits purpose and alignment. These reema can be said to be the actual intellect. This intellect can be articulated to be a body with out even using a liberal interpretation of the word body.With Love and Respect,
WispringWispering……….I don know , i thing your describing of the book as a Body of Knowledge, is more a reference to the Physical Book the the words in it. Spirit to me is more like a string of knowledge, that can enter our minds or leave them. they have not bodies at all. Notice what Jesus said , When a unclean Spirit leaves a man it goes about in (ARID) places seeking rest, Now think about this, a thought is that way because it is useless unless it is working (IN) a Mind, and a Thought does not have a body but is what is (IN) the Mind which is in the Man.
Jesus also said a Spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see i Have. But he never said that Spirit was not (IN) the flesh and bone body , because it was in Him just as spirit is in all life form on this earth. I believe GOD lives vicariously in his creation. Remember Jesus plainly Said the FATHER was IN HIM> God who is his own Logos can and does live in us as He did Jesus, ” God was (IN) Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto HIMSELF”. God alone is the LOGOS and Indwells HIS creation he considers us His temples He can and does live in. “KNOW YOU NOT THAT YOUR “BODIES” ARE THE TEMPLES OF THE LIVING GOD” , Paul tells us. and again “THAT GO MAY BE ALL AND IN YOU ALL”. It is not a body of God that is IN Us it is HIS HOLY SPIRIT (intellect). It is the Logos of GOD that comes into us just as it does Jesus. I really don't think we are that far apart on this brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 11 2011,21:35) Notice what Jesus said , When a unclean Spirit leaves a man it goes about in (ARID) places seeking rest,
Gene,How can these unclean spirits “GO” anywhere? If they are “everywhere all the time”, then they can neither “come” nor “go”.
For that spirit to “GO” to an arid place means that it wasn't already IN that arid place to begin with, right?
If there is ever a place where that spirit IS at the same time there are places where that spirit IS NOT, then there is something bounding the extremities of that spirit, saying “You ARE here, but NOT there, at this particular moment in time.”
mike
Mike………..Again you are trying to apply Metaphorical language to Literal language. Spirit is Thought, lets say you want to send to me your spirit or intellects or thoughts , about something. You would speak or write a common used WORD that i can understand and by these you would form in me the idea you were sending to me. So them I could also Know what you know so that Spirit (intellect) would be in me too. You would have in essence put your portion of those thoughts in me if I accept them they have become part of Me. Now if you reject those thoughts they just no longer exist in you so this is like being in (Arid) places dry and lifeless a useless state, even though these thought have a potential of activity they are useless unless the are in a body they can animate to respond to them.
Does this better give you understanding of what i am saying. Jesus when using the example of an unclean Spirit leaving a person and going around in arid places looking for rest is simply a Metaphor for what thoughts do when they are not active in a person any longer, they (spirits) are useless unless the are working (IN) a persons mind. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Just like when you think positive thoughts. You draw positivity to you. When you think negative thoughts you draw negative energy to you. Enough people think of some negative thought and because of the creative power that humans have they give a spiritual life to these thoughts. These thoughts wander around seeking a mind to feed off of. This aspect of reality is more than metaphorical. Remember the spirits being sent to the pigs? I learned this from life and not from the bible Gene. I can just back it up with what is in the bible. It is our faith in God and having the mind of Christ dwelling in us that protects us from these things in my own life experience. Your mileage may vary.With Love and Respect,
WispringTo all,
When spiritual beings wish to directly interact with our reality I believe there are portals which allow them access to the earth at various points of entry. Once here they have form and can interact with man but have limitations imposed on them from having form, but still retain some ability to relate on a spiritual level.To support what I've posted so far I refer to Daniel 10. The angel must have been limited to having to enter and travel along a path that took it past the prince who withstood him for twenty-one days, otherwise why not just “pop” into “existence” right next to Daniel, and how can you resist something with no form.
However spirits in their natural state seem unhindered by the limitations of form, able to interact with a Plethora of individuals at numerous locations but only on a spiritual level.
Spirits seem to vary in types from ones who can produce an emotional response, to the angels who interact with us, to our own spirit, to God's Holy Spirit.
I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeQuote (seekingtruth @ April 19 2011,09:47) To all,
When spiritual beings wish to directly interact with our reality I believe there are portals which allow them access to the earth at various points of entry. Once here they have form and can interact with man but have limitations imposed on them from having form, but still retain some ability to relate on a spiritual level.To support what I've posted so far I refer to Daniel 10. The angel must have been limited to having to enter and travel along a path that took it past the prince who withstood him for twenty-one days, otherwise why not just “pop” into “existence” right next to Daniel, and how can you resist something with no form.
However spirits in their natural state seem unhindered by the limitations of form, able to interact with a Plethora of individuals at numerous locations but only on a spiritual level.
Spirits seem to vary in types from ones who can produce an emotional response, to the angels who interact with us, to our own spirit, to God's Holy Spirit.
I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
My opinion – Wm
STi believe that even a blind can understand that the elephant is not in him ,
and can figure out is dimensions ,
with out his eyes will not have a clear picture but some basic knowledge,right ?
so we can figure in the same way if angels or spirit have forms or bodies ,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,11:30) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeMike,
I agree that Jesus is both spirit and body.I also do not understand it, but believe it is indicated by scripture, guess that's what makes it a different reality.
My opinion – Wm
To all,
Since Scripture gives accounts of citizens of the Spiritual realms having bodies it follows that at least at times they have bodies.
This does not eliminate the possibility that some citiizens of the realms of Spirit do not have bodies.
Hey guys,
Another point that Kathi brought up a long time ago, is that angels are said to “come to” and “leave from” places in scripture. If they “come to” a place, then that means they weren't already there before. And if there is ever a place where something IS at the same time there are places where it ISN'T, then there is something distinguishing where that thing IS from where it ISN'T.
Without a body, angels would be “everywhere, all the time”. There would be nothing keeping them separate from each other, us, or God Himself. And there would also then be no reason for them to ever “come to” or “leave from” anywhere, for they would already always be “everywhere”.
Just my thoughts.
mike
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 19 2011,17:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,11:30) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeMike,
I agree that Jesus is both spirit and body.I also do not understand it, but believe it is indicated by scripture, guess that's what makes it a different reality.
My opinion – Wm
You say that Jesus has both Spirit and Body!!!!! What do you mean which Body? If you are talking about the former body He had as a Human Being, then I disagree. The reson for that is,Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
You do know what a ransom is? Right?
Peace and Love Irene
To All………….A SPIRIT DOE NOT HAVE A BODY IT IS WHAT IS (IN) A BODY. How simple and most here can't even get that straight. Jesus is NOT a SPIRIT “BODY”, Jesus has a Spirit(ual) Body The is to say a “BODY” THAT IS BEING KEPT ALIVE BY SPIRIT THAT IS (IN ) IT. Jesus clearly said after his resurrection that a Spirit does not have a “flesh and bone body” AS HE HAD . Now what part of that scripture you people seem not to understand here. Moving Jesus to a non existent “Spirit body” existence is just all part of the separating work of false teachings and teachers , that tries to separate Jesus from our exact Identity. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2011,10:55) To All………….A SPIRIT DOE NOT HAVE A BODY IT IS WHAT IS (IN) A BODY. How simple and most here can't even get that straight. Jesus is NOT a SPIRIT “BODY”, Jesus has a Spirit(ual) Body The is to say a “BODY” THAT IS BEING KEPT ALIVE BY SPIRIT THAT IS (IN ) IT. Jesus clearly said after his resurrection that a Spirit does not have a “flesh and bone body” AS HE HAD . Now what part of that scripture you people seem not to understand here. Moving Jesus to a non existent “Spirit body” existence is just all part of the separating work of false teachings and teachers , that tries to separate Jesus from our exact Identity. IMO peace and love……………………………………………..gene
Gene,The word spirit has more than one definition. Apllying the wrong definition to the word can change the meaning of an idea.
That may be causing confusion on this thread.
Kerwin………….The confusion (IS) caused by applying the Simple Word Spirit to more then one definitions to me, that is what is causing the confusion. That is why i started a thread a while back asking for a “SIMPLE” overall understanding what Spirit meant, and I believe it all came to be a Spirit is simply an intellect that can be expressed by uttering word or by writing them, But either way it is still Knowledge or intellect that is being produced by our thinking and it is our minds that contain those intellects. I read once where I Believe Issac Newton said truth is best understood when we get to the SIMPLEST understanding of something when that has happens we have found truth. IMO
peace and love to you and yours kerwin………………………………………gene
Quote (Baker @ April 20 2011,11:54) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 19 2011,17:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,11:30) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeMike,
I agree that Jesus is both spirit and body.I also do not understand it, but believe it is indicated by scripture, guess that's what makes it a different reality.
My opinion – Wm
You say that Jesus has both Spirit and Body!!!!! What do you mean which Body? If you are talking about the former body He had as a Human Being, then I disagree. The reson for that is,Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
You do know what a ransom is? Right?
Peace and Love Irene
Hey Irene,
Actually we've discussed this before, I know that you believe his body is held as ransom but I pointed out that ransom is also defined as “the sum or price paid or demanded”.My opinion – Wm
WM Also John tells us that Jesus became the glory again which He had before the world was. Think about how His body must have looked after they scorched Him, and spit on Him. How they beaten Him etc. And you and Mike want to believe that Jesus is in that Body? Scripture tells me differently…
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote Zechariah 3 Clean Garments for the High Priest 1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” 5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by. 6 The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. 8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.Irene,
I then pointed at this scripture which I believe represents Jesus presenting Himself to the Father after the resurrection and having “fine garments” put on Him (a glorified body).Where's Nick when you need him, he was good at finding these old discussions.
My opinion – Wm
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